Does Gunslinger DPS need improvement?

[FiggsSWTOR]

(Feel free to add any L2P snarky comments below, but they will be summarily ignored )

 

My Gunslinger seems to me to be one of the classes with a more singular focus - DPS.

 

Question: Are Gunslingers supposed to be a Tier 1 DPS class?

 

If so, I'm not seeing it in PvE or PvP.

 

We're a bit squishy compared to some, so lower survivability.

No stealth.

No way to exit combat to escape.

No heals.

Our main CC is droid only. Our other CC (Flash Grenade) is short/emergency only with a long CD.

Many builds are most effective when standing still, in terms of DPS.

 

With all of these drawbacks, shouldn't I be Tier 1 and shine at DPS?

 

I've been 50 for quite some time and have done just about all the PvE content there is. I would say I am well-geared.

 

I've PvP'd up to Valor 35 or so in both warzones and open world. I'm 582 expertise with my current gear.

 

Don't get me wrong - I can "get by" just fine in PvP or PvE, but for a class that seems to be a single-minded damage class, I don't feel like it.

 

In PvP, when things go well, I can hit the 300k badge with a few other medals. I have never broken 400k. However, I regularly see other hybrid classes doing a dmg/heal combo of 175/275 (or vice versa). Shouldn't a hybrid be a lower overall spike on each of their components? Isn't that the nature of a hybrid?

 

In PvE I routinely hear other classes comment on their 5k-9k crits on Nightmare mode Ops content. I rarely see anything over 3k. I have never won the 5k shot PvP medal. I have never critted 6k+ in PvP or PvE.

 

I have spec'd all 3 trees and played them for over 2 weeks to try and truly get a feel for each. I'm currently Sharpshooter spec'd.

 

It just seems to me that a DPS-only class should be...well...higher DPS.

 

Am I crazy?

 

[Dulwaithe]

I only have a level 38 GS, so feel free to take anything I say with a grain of salt.

 

That being said, when I see GS's in pvp at 50 on my other characters I always have to be respectful of their burst or I will just explode.

 

As for pve, it seems like the GS's in our guild do really good dps. I know I'm hitting ~2.3k crits at 38 without any points into 30% crit damage, so it seems like you should be hitting a bit harder at 50. I know I've seen 4k crits in wz's with the bolster buff, and since that's without any expertise gear I imagine it's similar to what one should see at 50.

[Drakaras]

Figgs,

I couldn’t agree more or put it in better words.

You really translated all my concerns about my gunslinger. Thank you sir!!

For a class entirely focused in DPS I think we are not at the place we supposed to be.

In my guild I see people respecting all the time to fulfill our Ops needs better, with almost all classes being able to take different roles as needed while I can only DPS.

The problem is, my gunslinger is not the best DPS they can use or have the utility of other classes. Come on, I can’t even help the Ops with CC, because it is limited to droids.

Regarding hybrids I think it is absurd that, for instance, some BH specs are virtually impossible to kill and can outperformance pure DPS or healing classes.

If they don’t want to give us more DPS I would be happy to have more utility somehow.

Congratulations for your post!

[FiggsSWTOR]

As for Ops, you are exactly right - we wait at the Ops zone on most nights with several classes waiting to see who shows up, and we send the hybrids to respec according to attendance.

 

It's become such a shuffle that the guild bank helps users with their 100k respecs.

 

If a hybrid class can be completely viable in *either* spec in a 16man Nightmare mode raid, then it definitely tells me my Gunslinger is limited.

 

Again, I have no problem being limited (I don't want a heal) but if you're going to limit my utility (or heals, etc) and label my class as pure DPS, then give me the DPS to brag about.

 

F

[DarthLightSide]

I Concure 110%!

 

We're the glasscannon of this game...minus the canon.

 

Mediocre damage with almost zero utility

 

...and dont' get me started on our joke of a cover system.

[Tatermitts]

I am not saying L2P, so please don't be frustrated.

 

If you were to look in any of the class forums you will notice one thing: everyone is complaining about their class being under powered. It's just a part of the game that people want more from what they are playing, and feel that other classes can better accommodate the expectations in whatever setting.

 

There is more "CC" than just blind grenade. Dirty kick, pulse detonator, and leg shot are all great ways of dealing with mobs/players that you don't want bothering you. If you are upset about the PvE aspect I can kind of understand, but it's all about sustainable damage.

 

Gunslingers have extremely high burst damage, but they run out of energy quickly when going through their rotation. If you tone it back enough to maintain energy it feels like you aren't doing much damage. Once damage meters are accessible for SWTOR we will know for sure where we stand against the other classes in the game. For now, if people are saying that your DPS is low they are saying it without any real information to go on.

[Tatermitts]

Also, you're going to crit a little lower numbers than other classes because your off hand is doing damage also. Edited February 27, 2012 by Tatermitts

[Ukita]

I am not saying L2P, so please don't be frustrated.

The thing with our class is we don't have a fool proof escape mechanism.

 

Sage: Bubble and speed.

Shadow: Cloak of shadows and speed.

Commando: One of the only other class that doesn't really have fool proof escape skills. However they also have heavy armor, heal, shield, and all of GS's damage without mobility restrictions.

Vanguard: Charge, shield, and same benefits as commando, minus heal.

Guardian: Guardian leap, leap, last stand.

Sentinel: Guarded by the force, cloak, transcendence.

Scoundrel: Heals, stealth.

 

Gunslinger has a lot of CC's, but they have to be so wide spread, so as to not give people full resolve. And the aimed shot knockback you can spec into gives more resolve than any other CC/KD/Incapacitate in the game.

 

All of our "invulnerabilities" either don't last long enough for us to actually get away without being slowed/cc'd/incap'd, and our skill that ignores all of those requires us to sit still and get beat on like a pinata. :/

Also, you're going to crit a little lower numbers than other classes because your off hand is doing damage also.

Been wondering this for a while now actually: What is more worth it, a lower damage mainhand that has a 100% chance to hit with 100% accuracy and a stat stick offhand, or two weapons that, overall, do more damage, have slightly more stats, but provide other disadvantages, like the second weapon having a 1/3 chance to miss?

 

I would rather have a 100% chance to hit everything, than have **** be complicated because my second blaster can miss. Personally.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Ukita

[FiggsSWTOR]

edit(this reply was @tatermitts, if not clear - and, PS, I did not take your reply as L2P, it was well written and understood, thank you)

 

I totally agree with your (tatermitts) point that everyone "wants more" but my question is actually trying to raise a developer eye, and I think I have the data to prove it.

 

To restate, for clarity, are Gunslingers considered by the devs as top tier DPS?

 

RE your CC points: Points taken, and most of those come in very hand in PvP. In PvE, I find most of those skills get used a lot less and provide a bit less overall group utility.

 

In a Pickup Group, for example, in a zone without droids, if the group leader says "who has cc?" what is your answer?

 

You're correct that we don't have damage meters or proper combat logs, but we *do* have raw numbers in PvP scoreboards. Did you know that if you hover over your damage it actually scores the "damage per second" for you? I average 130-160 DPS in warzones. I finish in the top half of the overall board and in the top half of my team (almost) every time, but I'm usually far, *far* behind the actual score of "dps" compared to those above me.

 

This is not "tier 1 DPS" by my definition. Is it yours?

 

A commando in my guild routinely breaks 400 dps in a warzone and comes in just shy of 500k total damage on most matches.

 

I don't know how they calculate DPS in warzones, but in theory, the same calculation is applied to all players so it would be a valid apples to apples comparison, no?

 

Regardless of how they calculate that number, there exist only 2 possibilities if we are indeed intended to be tier 1 DPS:

1) We burst huge numbers and the calculation takes that into effect so we are top damage per second, but not necessarily highest total (sustained, cumulative) damage

 

2) We sustain decent damage over the duration which lowers our rate (dps) but raises our overall cumulative damage totals.

 

Tier 1 DPS should be "in the middle" on both categories in my opinion. Let me burst and blow up stuff quicker than others or let me ride the wave of total damage - one or the other.

 

F

Edited February 27, 2012 by FiggsSWTOR

[FiggsSWTOR]

Speaking of "tier", my actual vision for these classes is pretty basic and is nothing new to MMO's.

 

If your class has a specialty, then that class should be at the extreme end of that scale, shouldn't it?

 

Generic Example for DPS scale:

 

1) Tier1 DPS (AKA True DPS) - classes with little or no heals, less utility, lower survivability

EX: hit them hard, fast, and often, just don't get caught.

 

2) Tier2 DPS (AKA True Hybrid) - classes with either lower burst damage, lower sustainable damage, or both - combined with a bit more utility or other specialization (best debuffs, small heals, better group CC, etc).

EX: It may take me a little longer to kill you, but you know you're going to die, or at least have a harder time avoiding it.

 

3) Tier3 DPS (AKA True Tank) - lower burst and sustained damage, higher heals and/or utility, resistance, avoidance, mitigation.

EX: You may kill me but it's going to take a while, and if you don't do it quickly enough, I will outlast you.

 

4) Tier4 DPS (AKA True Healer) - lowest burst and sustained damage, best in game heals and utility for survivability.

EX: You're probably not going to kill me, but if you do I'm going to make it more trouble than it's worth.

 

 

I understand there are many elite players and min/maxxers who know how to play better than I do, but what I don't understand are those cases where it should technically be all but impossible to "outplay" another class.

 

Example would be true healers vs true DPS - true DPS simply cannot heal. True Healers can heal best-in-game and also stay respectably close to DPS in terms of damage.

 

Again, I'm not talking about only warzones and medals/valor/commendations - I'm talking about the more general idea of where Bioware thinks Gunslingers should be on the DPS scale.

 

I think we're too far toward the middle when you consider our other restrictions/drawbacks.

 

F

[TheOpf]

I hate to break it to you, but from the very beginning Bioware stated there would be no Tiered dps in the game. This has been repeated countless times from Bioware. Their goal is that every class that specs dps will be within 5 percent of each other.

 

You cannot dps effectively as hybrid, though I believe what you mean is the ability to respec to another role if needed. This is not a hybrid as they cannot heal and dps effectively. This is simply a multi-role Advanced class.

 

 

1. Tanks cannot do as much damage as dps.
   
2. Healers cannot do as much damage as a pure dps spec.
   
3. Every Advanced class has a pure dps spec.
   
4. CC has no bearing on where your dps should be. It is a secondary option.
   

 

Those 4 points completely eliminate your argument. The Gunslinger can spec to do prolonged dps (Dirty Fighting), burst dps (saboteour), or somewhere between the two (sharpshooter). I completely disagree, and does Bioware that a Dirty Fighting Scoundrel should do less damage than a Gunslinger simply because there Advanced class gives them the option to respec to a healer.

 

The two Pure Dps Advanced classes (Sentinel and Gunslinger) are also the two highest skill level classes. The more you play it, and the more skilled you become at it, the better your dps. I prefer not having much CC because it means I never have to stop dpsing to deal with CC.

 

The only thing Gunslingers need is a decent defensive cooldown that doesn't bug out everytime we use it or works more effectively when attempting to avoid death.

 

TLDR version: Your theory is wrong because it's based on WoW principles (which coincidentally they have been attempting to fix ever since the game started). The theory that a hybrid (which is mixing two different trees on the same advanced class allowing you to both heal and dps at the same time) should not out dps a pure dps tree is correct and it holds true. However, a pure dps tree should not be any different from any other pure dps tree regardless of which advanced class you play.

[Tatermitts]

The thing with our class is we don't have a fool proof escape mechanism.

 

Sage: Bubble and speed.

Shadow: Cloak of shadows and speed.

Commando: One of the only other class that doesn't really have fool proof escape skills. However they also have heavy armor, heal, shield, and all of GS's damage without mobility restrictions.

Vanguard: Charge, shield, and same benefits as commando, minus heal.

Guardian: Guardian leap, leap, last stand.

Sentinel: Guarded by the force, cloak, transcendence.

Scoundrel: Heals, stealth.

 

Gunslinger has a lot of CC's, but they have to be so wide spread, so as to not give people full resolve. And the aimed shot knockback you can spec into gives more resolve than any other CC/KD/Incapacitate in the game.

 

All of our "invulnerability" either don't last long enough for us to actually get away without being slowed/cc'd/incap'd, and our skill that ignores all of those requires us to sit still and get beat on like a pinata. :/

 

Been wondering this for a while now actually: What is more worth it, a lower damage mainhand that has a 100% chance to hit with 100% accuracy and a stat stick offhand, or two weapons that, overall, do more damage, have slightly more stats, but provide other disadvantages, like the second weapon having a 1/3 chance to miss?

 

I would rather have a 100% chance to hit everything, than have **** be complicated because my second blaster can miss. Personally.

 

The resolve is definitely an issue, but even if you use Aim shot you should be able to get 2 CC's in before the fully resolve (unless they were CC'd recently by someone else). 2 cc's is as many as any class can do before the target player's resolve meter is full.

 

I don't think that anyone has 100% accuracy. I think you're referring to a sniper, with the one weapon and off hand, but I don't think even they have 100% accuracy. I can see what you're saying about the offhand, but I like it because... I do. I don't really have a good reason but I am a fan of the gunslinger set-up in comparison to the sniper.

 

Also, I agree with you about the "invulnrabilities" making us locked down... but you can't have it all. Even without hunker down you are immune to pushback and interrupt. With a well timed hunker down (and at a better CD w/ talents) you can make a 1 on 1 fight very difficult for any class. You can CC them and they can't stop you from spending all of your energy to turn them to dust.

[FiggsSWTOR]

With respect (and I mean that), my argument is not flawed, maybe only poorly described.

 

I've avoided the use of any specific swtor class references on purpose (with the exception of mentioning my Commando friend's crit and dps).

 

I'm not comparing a dps to a dps and saying one should be higher than the other.

 

I'm comparing dps to non-dps and what I'm seeing in scoreboard results and in PvE encounters does not come anywhere near your comments on "within 5% of each other".

 

In its simplest form, my argument is:

 

DPS should (on average) out-DPS tanks and healers.

Tanks should (on average) out-tank DPS and healers.

Healers should (on average) out-heal DPS and Tanks.

 

(If you wanted to, you could likely sandwicth DPS/Tank and DPS/Healer Tank/Healer hybrids in there somewhere, but for simplicity, I kept it generic)

 

Do you disagree?

 

Does Bioware disagree?

 

I'm not seeing this to be the case as consistently as I think I should see it.

 

It is a tough situation becuase of the number of variables involved in any MMO, and when you talk "balance" that's a 4-letter word usually. It does, however, seem to me that I'm trading other skills (heals, utility, group needs, cc, survivability) for raw DPS but not seeing the DPS returns in equal portions compared to those things I am (purposely) trading away.

 

F

[TheOpf]

 

I'm comparing dps to non-dps and what I'm seeing in scoreboard results and in PvE encounters does not come anywhere near your comments on "within 5% of each other".

 

In its simplest form, my argument is:

 

DPS should (on average) out-DPS tanks and healers.

Tanks should (on average) out-tank DPS and healers.

Healers should (on average) out-heal DPS and Tanks.

 

(If you wanted to, you could likely sandwicth DPS/Tank and DPS/Healer Tank/Healer hybrids in there somewhere, but for simplicity, I kept it generic)

 

Do you disagree?

 

Does Bioware disagree?

 

I'm not seeing this to be the case as consistently as I think I should see it.

 

It is a tough situation becuase of the number of variables involved in any MMO, and when you talk "balance" that's a 4-letter word usually. It does, however, seem to me that I'm trading other skills (heals, utility, group needs, cc, survivability) for raw DPS but not seeing the DPS returns in equal portions compared to those things I am (purposely) trading away.

 

F

 

There are no hybrid dps/tank out there in pve and/or pvp doing any type of decent dps nor is there a good dps/healer hybrid that is of any value in a pve environment.

 

I would like to meet the healer tree that is outdpsing any decent dps spec. You won't find it. Again you are misconstruing the facts. You are comparing multi-role Advanced classes with a dps advanced class. If you compare trees, they are all within a relatively close depending on length of time on target and in pvp terms how long you are alive.

 

As a df gunfighter, I can dot up everyone on the other team, and end up with 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in damage with hardly any personal kills. If you are getting outdps'd by an actual tank, than he outgears you or you just need to figure out how to play a bit better.

 

Just so you know.

 

1. Not all Guardians, Shadow, Vanguards, Marauders, etc., are tank specced. Tank tree specs are not designed for dps and cannot outdps a Gunslinger.

 

2. Not all Sages, Inquisitors, Commando's, and so on are healers. In fact, most of them aren't. Now you may see that some of them have the ability to have healing in pvp, but did you know that thier bubbles count as a heal even though it doesn't heal them?

 

3. You keep stating that healers shouldn't out dps a dps class. Stop using the word class, and talk about trees. Classes are divided into three trees. A multi-role class can either choose to dps effectively or heal or tank. They cannot do both effectively.

 

Simplify your argument because right now you are upset about "class imbalance" when you want your "class" to be able to out dps a multi-role class. You aren't being beaten by healers who are dpsing. You are being beaten by a dps tree that has the option to respec to a healer tree. This is absolutely the way the game is supposed to play. Each dps tree regardless of class should be within 5 percent of the other trees if played correctly. You cannot be beaten in dps in any form unless you are not performing any actions by a healer who is dpsing to kill some time. This is what they are striving to accomplish.

 

Finally Crits do not equal damage. They are big numbers designed to mislead kids who like watching big numbers fly off the screen. I prefer to laugh at big number junkies, as my dots kill them off.

[Ukita]

As a df gunfighter, I can dot up everyone on the other team, and end up with 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in damage with hardly any personal kills. If you are getting outdps'd by an actual tank, than he outgears you or you just need to figure out how to play a bit better.

The only problem I have with doing this is I usually end up with no energy left, with vital shot costing 15 energy per use, and there being nothing in the DF tree that lowers the cost. There are options to increase the duration and the critical chance of all internal effects, but there isn't one that simply reduces the cost of it.

 

With DF being the more mobile of the 3 trees, you'd think there would be something you could spec into that would increase energy regeneration while in cover (it's in Saboteur if I remember correctly, which is great if you want to use a hybrid spec, but isn't really practical otherwise).

 

Total cost of using a DF rotation:

1. Vital shot (15 energy)

2. Shrap bomb (20 energy)

3. (Optional) Hemo Blast (15 energy)

4. Wounding Shots (30 energy)

5. Your sanity if they LOS wounding shots

 

During that time you may have regenerated maybe 20 energy? Leaves you with 40, and most of your skills requiring 15/20 to cast.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Ukita

[EhLiar]

This is of course anecodtal, but I usually top the damage done and kills on my server, no matter if I'm specced Sharpshooter(31/7/3, although I'm honestly wondering if 33/5/3 is better for lowered CD on Leg Shot or even something like 31/4/6 for vital shot duration) or Sab/DF hybrid(18/23 build or something like that, it's... standard I think?).

 

Either way, I think I do fine. Of course, I'm in a mix of champ/columi right now, with 3 columi set pieces and everything else champion.

 

The way I see it, our specialty as sharpshooter is kicking the legs out from other the enemy team. With sticky/aimed shot/charge burst, we can do basically 10k burst from 30m. Most of the other ranged DPS classes can't do that, and even after that our sustained dps is decently competitive.

 

I don't really like the hybrid build as much, since it feels like I'm doing less effective damage even though I'm doing more damage. Since it can't really focus or burst any one guy down(the "kill this guy" sequence takes like 5 casts, although tbh they probably are ignoring you until the wounding shots hit) but it has its merits. Poppin' relics/adrenals and hitting a good flyby will literally kill half the enemy team, or(much more likely) force them to take much worse positioning.

 

I think the other thing to note is slinger, at least in my experience, is not really a reactive class. We have to play predictively and read the fight before it happens, in a way. If you're positioned well before the fight starts, then you can just dump damage and focus down their squishies. If you've positioned poorly, then the enemy team looks at you and you die, or you have to move and are now vulnerable to leaps and pulls and all that bs.

 

Magicalamber, Wound In The Force

[Inarai]

Question: Are Gunslingers supposed to be a Tier 1 DPS class?

 

No, because there are not supposed to be tiers.

 

If Sentinels and Gunslingers were the game's best DPS, there'd be no point to any other DPS and that's not at all what's supposed to happen. Keep in mind that a DPS Guardian, for example, isn't considered a hybrid character - the design of the game is such that they're a pure DPS character.

[flem]

Gunslingers have extremely high burst damage, but they run out of energy quickly when going through their rotation.

Not at 50. In fact, the main advantage of at least SS spec Gunslinger is that you can lay the hurt down indefinitely with no energy glitches.

[Fiendclub]

This is too funny. Yes....Slinger DPS is F- in WZ's, comming from a SS point of view. I have been thinking that for a while now. Heres whats I find funny about this thread. I have been spending the last few moments looking at the Impuisitor and Consular threads to see about their DPS issues. They have none. They are complaining about lame companions and bad story lines. Just back onto the slinger fourms and i get to read about "WTH? I blow CDs all teh time and still get ROFLSTOMPED"

We are a class with just about no survivability. Lack of heals hurt. Have to be immobile for channeled and casting time attacks screws us.

I have been looking into this to see if I am doing something wrong with my PvP style. I am still working on my BM set, so that part of the issue.

We cant kite. Their are to many CC/slows in the game to do this. Not to mention that 1/2 the enemy team are Inq's.

DoTs need an instant tick and not the 3 sec timer.

Our burst damage is negated by 1/3+ geared BM players.

We have to use all of our attack. The OP classes just spam 3-4 what evers and rack up the damage.

No heals. Trying the get the bio Chem med pack to solve that, but they are still on a 90 sec CD.

I have tried hybrid build to get more mobile DPS, but kept comming back to a SS/Sab build that does alright

 

Now I just jump on to knock out my PvP dailys. Still crossing my finger and waiting for some good chainges. its was a fun class to play and the story line was great. It jsut need to be fixed in PvP

[Tatermitts]

Not at 50. In fact, the main advantage of at least SS spec Gunslinger is that you can lay the hurt down indefinitely with no energy glitches.

 

I'm running SS and I run out of energy in PvE and PvP pretty regularly. Maybe my rotation is bad.

 

Aimed Shot -> Trick Shot -> Flourish shot -> Wounding Shot -> Sab Charge -> Charged Burst -> Trick Shot -> Aimed Shot ->

 

I'm doing this from memory so I may be missing something, and of course the damage stuff changes in PvP when I need to CC or grenade a group trying to capture or plant.

[Philosomanic]

Keep in mind that I'm not a Gunslinger, I'm a Shadow. Here's my outsider perspective.

 

First off, you have more CC than a shadow. Here's our CC for a typical DPS build:

 

1-target 60s disable from stealth.

1-target 8s disable, 3s cast time, 60s cooldown.

1-target 4s disable, melee skill, 15s cooldown.

 

You guys have:

 

5-target 8s disable, 60s cooldown

1-target permanent droid-only disable.

1-target 5s root, 15s cooldown.

 

 

So we each have one large disable. Ours is from stealth, and lasts 60s. Yours only works on droids, but can be maintained indefinitely. We each have a 8s disable. However, the Shadow disable takes 3s to cast, and only hits one target. If we trait deep into our DoT line, that becomes a 3-target 8s disable with no cast time. Either way, it's inferior to your 5-target disable with no cast time. We then have a melee 4s disable, and you have a ranged 5s root, which are about equal.

 

Additionally, your AoE knockback is significantly better than ours. It knocks you back further, and it has a 5s root as well. And with the right talents, you get additional knockbacks, slows, and roots.

 

Although a DPS shadow can use taunts (although not guard), you guys have Scrambling Field (which is crazy good) and far, far better AoE damage, as well as Hunker Down. So in utility, we're about equal.

 

 

In terms of DPS, you guys have it great. I'm always shocked (and jealous) by the amount of damage you guys can do in bursts. If a good sniper gets on me from range, I know that I'm dead. I can run away, break LOS, and stealth, but from 20m+ I cannot get into melee range and kill you. Between the knockbacks, roots, and slows, I'm at a fraction of health by the time I get close. And then you either Dirty Kick -> destroy me or use Flash Grenade and get some distance again.

 

Shadows can, in short bursts, do as much damage as you. However, our damage relies on setting up procs. This means that we come out of stealth, and for ~6s we're doing really wimpy damage. Then, once we have all of our procs up, we unleash a huge burst of DPS in a few skills. You can do peak damage right off the bat, and you can do it from 35m away. We can't do anything if we're more than 10m away, and if we're not in melee range our DPS is ~1/3 of what it should be.

 

 

 

Also, one thing about DPS numbers. They are misleading. There are two real types of DPS in PvP: Pressure, and Takedown. Takedown DPS (like Infiltration Shadows or Sharpshooter Gunslingers) does large amounts of damage to a single target. Our goal is to kill a player faster than they can be healed. Pressure DPS does much smaller amounts of damage, but to many targets at once. This is through either DoT stacking or AoE. Pressure DPS will always have higher numbers than Takedown DPS.

 

They are both vital roles. Pressure puts (duh!) pressure on the healers, making them unable to focus heal on one target. Takedown DPS then focus fires one target and brings them down while the healers are frantically trying to keep their team up. Without Pressure DPS, the healers would be able to match Takedown DPS, and it'd be much, much harder to get kills. Without Takedown DPS, your DPS would eventually outpace the healers, but it would take far too long for it to matter.

 

If you want to see higher damage numbers at the end of a warzone, maybe you should try Saboteur (for AoE) or Dirty Fighting (for DoTs). I've known several Gunsilngers that can do crazy DPS as Dirty Fighting (something like this). With +18% chance for DoTs to crit, and 2 energy from every DoT crit, they have almost no energy problems. They can keep Vital Shot up on every target they can see, and spread the love around some more with Shrap Bomb. For single-target damage, Hemorrhaging Blast -> Wounding Shots is still decent.

 

 

/textwall

[peaceandpassion]

Lvl 50 guardian/rakata gear (dps gear and tank)

Lvl 50 commando dps Rakata gear

lvl 45 GS (lvl gear)

 

Ok well i feel i can add alittle light into this convo

 

Dps in swtor is alittle bit all over the place but basicly you have 2 types.

 

Burst/dot

 

Nw the classes that use dot are the hybrids, and yes they do some decent dps as my jk guardian does have a perma dps slot in raids (bonus of being an offtank) and my commando is backup for hardmodes or "gear runs".

 

So i decided to role a gs for the story and stayed for the pure awesome combat and gear. The GS is the highest burst dps class. What i meen when i say burst is and i will give a perfect example of the situation....

 

Soa 3RD phase - you have on average a 10 second window to dps him x3 times when hes stunned, dot classes suffer here, even mandos do as they need to build up there buff/debuff, but smuggler GS just pawnface, the amount of potential dps you can put out in the same amount of time as a mando or hybrid is insane.

 

Nw commando are high end dps classes, but there dps falls short of GS when you remember that there class works mainly on keeping up there rotation no questions asked.

While GS does have a 3 skill rotation, all your other skills just slot in between cooldowns, you can keep this going constant and have that all important ranged interupt that everyone seems to forget.

 

So to sum up the classes based on dps....

 

guardian - high dot damage, low "in yo face" dmg.

 

Sage - same as above, but with alittle more spammable cast skills.

 

Vanguard - same as guardian/melee

 

Scound - High burst dmg, low longterm dmg.

 

Mando - high burst dmg, high longterm dmg with more of an ammo issue than GS and lack the interupt to reach there full potential. two skills gain dps with 3 or more grav rounds, and i can tell u having grav round interupted in pvp spells doom for most mandos.

 

Shadow - have not played this class past lvl 25 due to the fact i bloody hate skirts

 

GS - High burst dmg, easy energy management, high end longterm dmg, RANGED INTERUPT with some very nice cooldowns for those "omg pawnz i haz agro" and the rotation is easy to mantain due to the fact only 3 skills link together. Also if we change targets mid rotation it does not effect us.

 

Sentinal - weakness in melee form, dot dmg (like guardian) very low defence, no taunt, no guardian leap (love this about my guardian....what? you have agro? poof no u dont)

but high dmg in long fights (provided they can keep there rotation up.

 

Now some may disagree with me but this is based on my raid experiance in NM and playing afew dps classes.

 

BONUS

 

Our rotation dosnt effect our rotation, we can keep up the high end dps even when switching targets. Sadly hybrids, if allow there dots to drop have to build them up again (mando/guardian)

 

All this might be bollocks to some people, but hey i love GS and have even benched my 2 50 raid ALTS for my 45 GS. This class is amazing and sadly underplayed.

 

Peace out

Edited February 28, 2012 by peaceandpassion

[IamScarap]

In terms of DPS, you guys have it great. I'm always shocked (and jealous) by the amount of damage you guys can do in bursts. If a good sniper gets on me from range, I know that I'm dead. I can run away, break LOS, and stealth, but from 20m+ I cannot get into melee range and kill you. Between the knockbacks, roots, and slows, I'm at a fraction of health by the time I get close. And then you either Dirty Kick -> destroy me or use Flash Grenade and get some distance again.

 

Sharp Shooters don't have a slowing ability, only Dirty Fighting and Saboteur do, and if you're slowed by them you're not going to stay in flash greande for very long, since both of those slows are tied to their DOTs. In your utilities you forgot to mention the fact that you have stealth which is ridiculous in PVP. The fact that you can choose when you want to start a fight is incredible, and you can pretty much solo win hutt ball games by chilling in the end zone and waiting for passes. Not to mention you can ignore all of that burst by opening up on a gunslinger close range, and you've got self healing abilities in PVP.

 

GS - High burst dmg, easy energy management, high end longterm dmg,

 

In PVP, Dirty Fighting burns through most of it's energy just setting up one rotation.

 

Additionally, your AoE knockback is significantly better than ours. It knocks you back further, and it has a 5s root as well. And with the right talents, you get additional knockbacks, slows, and roots.

 

We have one knock back that takes a second to get into position to use, meaning when people open up on us from stealth and stun us, in order to knock them back we pretty much have to eat more attacks. We have ONE talented knock back, which is a single target knock back connected to a 2.5 second or 1.5 second cast time skill. We have two talented slows, connected to decently long CD Dots. we have no taletned roots, but we do have reduced CD on our Leg Shot.

 

Although a DPS shadow can use taunts (although not guard), you guys have Scrambling Field (which is crazy good) and far, far better AoE damage, as well as Hunker Down. So in utility, we're about equal.

 

One spec has AOE damage, and Hunker Down can be mitigated by walking behind a pillar and waiting.

 

does large amounts of damage to a single target. Our goal is to kill a player faster than they can be healed.

 

which is depressing, because I have troubles killing healers by myself.

 

Aimed Shot -> Trick Shot -> Flourish shot -> Wounding Shot -> Sab Charge -> Charged Burst -> Trick Shot -> Aimed Shot ->

 

Don't bother with Flourish Shot in PVP. I used to believe that it was good too, but after seeing the numbers I figure it's just a waste of energy. As well, if your energy starts to get low and Cool Head is on CD, use Flurry of Bolts to conserve energy. I don't know what "Wounding Shot" is, but if it's that DOT bleed, don't use that either, unless you're trying to prevent people from capping a door and you can't really focus on them.

 

With DF being the more mobile of the 3 trees, you'd think there would be something you could spec into that would increase energy regeneration while in cover (it's in Saboteur if I remember correctly, which is great if you want to use a hybrid spec, but isn't really practical otherwise).

 

It's the Foxhole talent in the Sharp Shooter tree.

 

Those 4 points completely eliminate your argument. The Gunslinger can spec to do prolonged dps (Dirty Fighting), burst dps (saboteour), or somewhere between the two (sharpshooter). I completely disagree, and does Bioware that a Dirty Fighting Scoundrel should do less damage than a Gunslinger simply because there Advanced class gives them the option to respec to a healer.

 

if you're saying saboteur is the burst dps tree, I honestly feel like you haven't been playing this class all that much.

[TheOpf]

I love how the JK and the Shadow jump on to tell us how great our class is and then don't list a single tree correctly.

 

They combined DF end talents with mid level SS talents with several talents in Sab. I don't have 5 8 second stuns. Haha, Maybe the entire Class does, but I can't spec in every tree. We can't have all those talents. If you are a full dirty fighter, than here are the skills we get.

 

Bleeds, Faster dirty kick, faster escape, and faster dodge with one snare tied to Shrap bomb.

 

The only knockback we have is done in cover which is ridiculous since I am almost never in cover as a Dirty fighting Gunslinger.

 

Sharpshooters have the following - Aimed Shot knockback, Crouched Knockback, and a slow which barely works.

 

Sabs have a slow, and well nothing else really.

 

We all have Flash Grenade - 8 sec stun which is broken with dots or any damage and a 4 second mezmerize. Leg shot which is a 2 sec stun 80 percent of the time.

 

This leaves us with the chance to do well nothing, because if you put a dot on the guy than none of those CC's work effectively except to slow them down enough to get away.

Edited February 28, 2012 by TheOpf

[FiggsSWTOR]

@philosomanic and @peaceandpassion - thanks for the thoughtful and informative replies, good reading for me.

 

After more reading on my part, I'm fairly well convinced that there are 4 classes in the game who can spec only DPS - 2 on Imp side, 2 on Republic.

 

A Gunslinger simply cannot spec heals. A Gunslinger *might* be able to spec "tank" in the DF tree, but let's be real, that's not a tank. Also remember that the DF tree is the shared tree so other Smugglers can spec that all they want as well.

 

I am giving up choice and options in the form of trading variety for specialization.

 

In every game I've ever played where character builds exist, choosing any 1 path over another came with pros and cons. The pro of choosing path A meant that you were "better at" path A. The con of course being that you are "not as good at" (or in many cases not even allowed) path B.

 

If I'm choosing DPS over all else, then it seems like as my other (not chosen) options suffer, my DPS should improve.

 

If DPS is DPS is DPS in swtor, then my frustrations are with the design itself I suppose, and not the math.

 

F