Please explain the fun factor of Expertise to me.

[System_Crush]

Hello, I don't claim to be an expert on all things game design, but I think we can all agree when you add a mechanic as a designer/developer you ask yourself, is it fun.

Everything you add to the game is supposed to increase the fun factor for the players.

 

Where is the fun factor in Expertise on gear?

Expertise adds damage dealt to players and reduces damage taken from players.

For 2 PvP geared players it increases damage dealt and decreases damage received by the same amount, so it adds exactly nothing.

 

Against players not fully geared, a fully geared player has bonuses of their better equipment anyway.

So the only effect of expertise to me seems ruining the PvP experience of players in lesser gear.

 

Now I'm not saying expertise is bad, several other MMO's have a mechanic that changes PvP damage dealt. So there has to be some design bonus that makes it desirable.

 

Please help me understand why expertise is a good game design decision?

Edited February 27, 2012 by System_Crush

[kirorx]

I think it is stupid and I mostly pvp.

 

It turns pvp into a grindfest that is more gear than skill.

[Goldenstar]

It turns pvp into a grindfest that is more gear than skill.

 

Quoted For Emphasis

[Terko_Koslah]

I can't help you with this. I think it's bad if devs brand end game. I always look thigs in an rp-wise. Don't really see any point to have different pvp and pve gear in an rp world. It's just so apparent grind fest policy.

[spicycookie]

The fundamental reason behind it is to separate PVP from PVE players.

 

A PVE player will do less damage to a full PVP player when both are geared.

 

Now for PVP versus PVP where both are geared then obviously there is no advantage.

 

WOW was pretty much the same design but they call it resilence.

 

 

PVP use to be where there was no Expertise or Resilence and what happen a long time ago before SWTOR even release... PVPers would QQ about how PVE players dominated them because they raid and PVPers don't raid.

Edited February 27, 2012 by spicycookie

[Devlonir]

The fundamental reason behind it is to separate PVP from PVE players.

 

A PVE player will do less damage to a full PVP player when both are geared.

 

Now for PVP versus PVP where both are geared then obviously there is no advantage.

 

WOW was pretty much the same design but they call it resilence.

 

 

PVP use to be where there was no Expertise or Resilence and what happen a long time ago before SWTOR even release... PVPers would QQ about how PVE players dominated them because they raid and PVPers don't raid.

 

And the problem here comes from the idea that PVP should be about gaining gear as much as PVE is. While it should not.

 

PVP players should not be rewarded with better gear, but with more interesting gear. PVP should have a level gear playing field, or a field where actual gear doesn't matter, where they can earn other perks like speeders, empty moddable gear etc.. Make PVP not a gear treadmill.

 

A shame SWTOR did not go down that route and makes PVP as much a gear treadmill as PVE is. I like my PVE to be about getting better gear, I like my PVP to be about having fun testing my skills against others.

[Dayfax]

It's a terrible mechanic.

 

Problem is designing a game where the same player can go from fighting a hardmode raid boss to fighting another player within an hour.

 

How to you balance the damage in those two situations? Th obvious answer is to make every ability work differently depending on the context (PvP vs PvE). But that's an awkward solution at best, and potentially confusing.

 

Resilience isn't fun, but with current raid designs & trinity systems, I can't see much of a way around it.

[System_Crush]

So if we changed the current gear vendors to allow paying for your raid gear with either raid tokens or PvP tokens (or a combination of both to please people like me) you could do away with expertise on gear altogether? Edited February 27, 2012 by System_Crush

[dirtyklingon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy3oDbI4PNM

 

i realyl cba to grind wz's for pvp gear. or do my dialies every day. in fact i ahven't finished one wz daily since hitting 50, and only the ilum daily once and i had to spend a half hour pickign up the boxes to finish it.

 

out of the 3 or 4 bags i've gotten i've gotten no pvp pieces.

 

 

w/e idrc.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy3oDbI4PNM

 

as you can see, baddie player like i am, i do just fine without pvp gear, with a columni piece and a tionese piece that was a vaguely an upgrade and a 128 saber that was such a poro upgrade i had to transfer mods to it to make the str and end stats equal to my previous dailie comms hilt orange saber.

 

video is pretty much an average match for me. i totally just derp around beign a baddie, and getting proven that the average mmo player is worse than i am. i don't play to be pro though. i play to have fun, and fo rme just ignorign objectives mroe or less and derping aroudn jumping platofrms is fun.

 

i don't use a fotm spec, in fact every other jggg i've comapred notes with finds my spec very odd. it's something liek 3/19/19. i don't feel gimp, or OP, i don't need buffs, i was unhappy witht eh change to surge because i now do less dps than i did the minute i hit 50, but

 

i am viable.

 

 

what is this thread about again?

 

 

oh right expertise.

 

 

yeah pvp stat, kidna required in wow clones, mostly because eventually pve gear becomes so op compared to the pvp gear. at least wow gives you a super easy to obtain res set that allows you to be viable the day you hit cap in cata. not sure swtor needs one like that right now, simply because well, as you can see, i do just fine against pvp gear players as a baddie jugg(a class everyone claims is bad in pvp, especially in dps spec).

 

 

now if you said jugg was bad in ilum, yes, yes it is. i think our main weakness is getting ran away from within 10m but more than 4m and havin to stop wait for charge cd to come back up and then get back in the action.

 

tbh my lowbie powertech is alot more effective though, adn a lot mroe flexible, adn without worrying too much abotu energy management, at least compared to jugg which in my spec/stance i barely look at my rageunless i can't do anything adn then i have to use my TWO builders in melee range.

[Goldenstar]

So if we changed the current gear vendors to allow paying for your raid gear with either raid tokens or PvP tokens (or a combination of both to please people like me) you could do away with expertise on gear?

 

I'd rather see a version of bolster applied to everyone (expecially post 50). When you enter a warzone, your stats + armor rating are automatically adjusted based on your class and spec, i.e. every tank spec'd sin would have an equal armor rating which would be higher than the rating for say a heal-spec'd sorc, but lower than that of a tank-spec'd powertech.That way everyone (of a similar spec) has the same stats/armor rating and performance in PvP would depend on your ability and knowledge of your spec (and all the others)

[Grotpar]

The fundamental reason behind it is to separate PVP from PVE players.

 

A PVE player will do less damage to a full PVP player when both are geared.

 

Now for PVP versus PVP where both are geared then obviously there is no advantage.

 

WOW was pretty much the same design but they call it resilence.

 

 

PVP use to be where there was no Expertise or Resilence and what happen a long time ago before SWTOR even release... PVPers would QQ about how PVE players dominated them because they raid and PVPers don't raid.

 

The difference in WoW, however, was that it was justified with "preventing people from being two shotted", which was a major issue before serious PvP gear was implemented, because shammies went around one shotting warriors with windfury(I should know, I used to do it all the time), or mages with trinket + arcane power + instant pyroblast.

And the resilience stat only added defense, meaning the offensive stats were sacrificed to get it(not to mention that PvP gear had naturally more stamina, which means even less offensive stats.

 

In the end, with careful play, you could use PvE gear in PvP, not for competitive play, but definitely for fun(battleground and such). It even came to the point that the ideal gear set up ended up being a mix of pve and pvp gear for some classes.

 

But that aside, separating PvP and PvE players is an awful idea. Expertise is much worse than resilience was, because it also adds healing and damage. I don't know what they were smoking when they designed the stat, but I want some of it.

 

You could easily allow for "PvE" gear to be obtained from PvP, with more endurance, where PvE gear from raids would have more str/will/aim/cun on it.

 

Bioware obviously failed to realize the purpose behind the PvP stat, and just made it a stat to separate the PvE and PvP players, which is an awful thing to do and should be abolished from the game.

[fixit]

Because making people have to raid to PvP was stupid and made it hyper lame in other games until such mechanics where created (cough resil). Ok you are HC raider, so automatically you are also the best PvPer since you have way better gear. Lame.

 

But w/e. I figure it's like this: you could create a robust PvP system that is more focused on skill, rather than gear and then seperate PvE <-> PvP mechanics entirely with whole different skill/rules sets OR you can go the easy route and simply add one stat instead. Plus it also adds another hampster wheel so people have to play more, thus pay more.

 

Tell me; which is cheaper, faster, and makes you more ca$h?

 

Hello expertise! Enjoy!

Edited February 27, 2012 by fixit

[Grotpar]

Because making people have to raid to PvP was stupid and made it hyper lame in other games until such mechanics where created (cough resil). Ok you are HC raider, so automatically you are also the best PvPer since you have way better gear. Lame.

 

Or, they could provide similar gear for PvP players with with more endurance, and set bonuses for PvP.

 

This way, PvP can still be used in PvE without a significant disadvantage, and PvE gear will not outmatch PvP gear, nor will PvE players be stomped because they can't deal much damage to PvP players while taking more damage from them that will likely cause them to be smashed to pieces without ever being able to put up a fight.

 

By adding a stat like expertise you're essentially turning the tables.

Which is less offensive, but equally as bad from a design point of view.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Grotpar

[Starlost]

I'd rather see a version of bolster applied to everyone (expecially post 50). When you enter a warzone, your stats + armor rating are automatically adjusted based on your class and spec, i.e. every tank spec'd sin would have an equal armor rating which would be higher than the rating for say a heal-spec'd sorc, but lower than that of a tank-spec'd powertech.That way everyone (of a similar spec) has the same stats/armor rating and performance in PvP would depend on your ability and knowledge of your spec (and all the others)

 

I agree, everyone should just be normalised in PvP. This is the most obvious solution, I don't see why people want to introduce any kind of gear treadmill or progression system into PvP at all. Give me rankings and titles over gear any day.

[Grotpar]

The bolster mechanic isn't bad, but the problem is that people in a gear focused MMO expect gear as a reward. So that won't work, and it would feel out of place, despite being a perfectly usable mechanic(10-49 proves that it works, since that's where people love PvP.)

 

I don't think providing gear for the looks would satisfy people. Then again, providing gear with stats for use in PvE, but is worse than whatever can be gotten from actual raiding but can be used to start raiding might satisfy people.

 

In the end, I think people just want purple lightsabers crystals.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Grotpar

[System_Crush]

I'd rather see a version of bolster applied to everyone (expecially post 50). When you enter a warzone, your stats + armor rating are automatically adjusted based on your class and spec, i.e. every tank spec'd sin would have an equal armor rating which would be higher than the rating for say a heal-spec'd sorc, but lower than that of a tank-spec'd powertech.That way everyone (of a similar spec) has the same stats/armor rating and performance in PvP would depend on your ability and knowledge of your spec (and all the others)

 

But since my tank specced powertech used hypothetical mercenary gear for PvP that would remove a lot of my choice by flipping the stats around to tank gear...

 

On the other hand if you had a single armor mesh for each separate class/spec to go along with those stats (automatically changing into that armor when entering a warzone) that would reduce the amount of textures and models needed to load and make warzones run at a proper FPS...

Edited February 27, 2012 by System_Crush

[Ashyel]

PvE players have a gear treadmill so PvP players need one too.

 

You can do things like make PvP an even playing field where all gear is identical in PvP but it removes the treadmill and any reason to keep playing. It also removes the ability for players to maximise or customise their gear to try out new strategies. So basically, that idea is a no-go.

 

They could make it so you can get Columi/Rakata gear in Champion/BM bags... but then you'll have this disastrous situation where one activity (either operations or warzones) will be the quickest path to gearing and the other activity will be seen as pointless. Not to mention, it would mean you have to do BOTH activities in order to gear up the quickest. And that would mean players feel pressured to do activities they don't enjoy in a game they're paying for monthly to play.

 

They already have a bit of that situation already where PvE players feel as though doing PvP dailies is the quickest route to high-end gear despite them hating PvP. So to reduce the chances of this happening, Bioware have to differentiate PvP and PvE gear while keeping them balanced in terms of total stats. So PvP players have their own set of gear, and PvE players have theirs.

 

Battlemaster has lower stats than Rakata but has Expertise. So BM is superior to Rakata in PvP but inferior in PvE.

Rakata has higher stats than Battlemaster but no Expertise. So Rakata is superior in PvE but inferior in PvP.

 

The problem of course is similar to the issue where you want to raid to get gear... but you can't... because your gear is not good enough. Which is kind of a vicious circle. But in PvP the problem is even more apparent because unlike in PvE you can't solo your way toward gear via dailies for entry level, you NEED to face these full-battlemaster players in order to gear up.

 

Basically... the Expertise system makes sense and is necessary but it's not without its flaws. The only solution I see is either bracketing Centurions into their own warzones which would slow down queue times massively, removing gear from PvP, or forcing PvP players to do PvE for their Expertise gear which PvP players don't want to do. So there are no easy answers I'm afraid. They tried to alleviate some of the issues by giving more Centurion commendations for entry-level gear but it's not enough if you want a level playing field.

 

It's not a system that is design to be "the most fun", but rather, it's a system designed to be the lesser of several evils. In that sense, I guess it is the most fun however.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Ashyel

[fixit]

Right now....for many classes, due to heavy dim returns higher expertise you get: the best PvP gear is actually a mix of PvP and Rakata. Double set bonus + more output with a marginal decrease in survivability. So already PvEers can have an advantage if they want.

 

I dunno, I expect them to nerf expertise and make PvP gear super easy to get; last changes with increased tokens and next patch is just the beginning. More to come in 1.2, I bet. They want to make sure everyone can get awsome PvP gear real fast with low amount of effort. I can respect that, keeps the PvEers happy right?

 

But w/e, whenever GW2 is released....I will bet my hat most PvP fans will be movin over there if it delivers (/cross fingers). So good times ahead for casuals and PvEers, welfare epics for all!

[Dayfax]

PvE players have a gear treadmill so PvP players need one too.

 

You can do things like make PvP an even playing field where all gear is identical in PvP but it removes the treadmill and any reason to keep playing. It also removes the ability for players to maximise or customise their gear to try out new strategies. So basically, that idea is a no-go

 

I'm not convinced that PvPers wouldn't play without the treadmill. For one, games like Team Fortress 2 have had active communities for going on 5 years without gear. It's just pure PvP.

 

Granted, MMOs aren't FPSers, either. But since triple-A MMOs have a way of sidelining PvPers and minimizing any PvP content, why would the same rules have to apply?

[Goldenstar]

I'm not convinced that PvPers wouldn't play without the treadmill. For one, games like Team Fortress 2 have had active communities for going on 5 years without gear. It's just pure PvP.

 

Granted, MMOs aren't FPSers, either. But since triple-A MMOs have a way of sidelining PvPers and minimizing any PvP content, why would the same rules have to apply?

 

GW1 has had a VERY active PvP community for 8 years now. The rewards are a ladder system for guilds playing organized pvp, titles, and reward points which can be traded for cosmetic gear upgrades (all PvP characters can be created @ max level with max gear so cosmetic upgrades are the only kind that could work).

 

You can definitely remove the treadmill and maintain an active community if the gameplay is FUN. If it's not fun, then people will stop playing once you get rid of the treadmill.

[Randytravis]

Right now....for many classes, due to heavy dim returns higher expertise you get: the best PvP gear is actually a mix of PvP and Rakata. Double set bonus + more output with a marginal decrease in survivability. So already PvEers can have an advantage if they want.

 

I dunno, I expect them to nerf expertise and make PvP gear super easy to get; last changes with increased tokens and next patch is just the beginning. More to come in 1.2, I bet. They want to make sure everyone can get awsome PvP gear real fast with low amount of effort. I can respect that, keeps the PvEers happy right?

 

But w/e, whenever GW2 is released....I will bet my hat most PvP fans will be movin over there if it delivers (/cross fingers). So good times ahead for casuals and PvEers, welfare epics for all!

 

Im a pvp'er and i wont be playing gw2 as my main mmo. Ill get it and try it but been watching alot of demo footage etc and apart from a few concepts seems the same standard mmo base. The character animations and the way combat looks was quite dissapointing for me. I like the whole dodge thing but the fact you have to swap weapons for moves ill hate. I agree something needs to be devolped to change the form of defence for indivduals so players cant 3 shot people.