Why is zerg vs zerg so broken in SWTOR?

[sylorien]

Seriously, I want to know. Because clearly the PVP in this game is extremely broken, such that two huge zergs of players often sit next to each other without daring to approach or attack in Ilum every single night.

 

I compare it to WoW AV, which sucked, but it sucked way less than Ilum in this game. At least in AV, players fought each other and zergs fought each other.

 

In this game, zergs sit AFK afraid to approach each other.

[Jebi]

If they approached each other, the lag monster would get mad. You do NOT want to get the lag monster mad!!!

 

So it's safest to just /dance with each other... at least until an epic kill trade sessions ensues.

 

<3 Ilum.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Jebi

[biowareftw]

Game engine can't support more then 8 v 8 battles (and keep good fps).

 

Warriors in WoW can charge and then bladestorm while being immune to CC. In this game you charge get stunned by 20 people, trinket and get stunned again (mostly because people are slow, not because they are "skill stunlocking you".

 

In addition melee in WoW can get buffs from healers/self so that they are immune to kites, CC. Also most LONG CC in WoW has an actual cast time from ranged.

 

Also? Good luck with trying to play a melee at 5-10 fps in a large zerg...

 

So what do you get? Mostly ez mode ranged classes staring at eachother. Why the hell would I charge 20 or more people when I am just going to be stunned to death and unable to even do anything? I don't get valor when I am dead...

 

Add to that? Why would I play a rogue class and pick off healers in the back when it takes too long in this game and I am going to be knocked back from my target with no way to get back and THEN stunned to death? In this game ranged can stunlock (stupidest thing I have ever seen) in group pvp.

 

Blame Game engine, horrible class balance between ranged/melee, WAY too much CC (the hybrid spec sage/sorc is BEYOND STUPID).

 

The game engine? They can fix/optimize. The biased designers who basically took WoW and gimped melee in every single way? You can't fix that.

 

In WoW melee are the point men. In SWTOR? Melee can't reach their target outside of small fights. I had no problem with melee in WoW. As a sage/sorc in this game? LOL. It is just faceroll. All the tools melee had in WoW are absent here and ranged got stuns and all instant cast cc and roots that have no diminishing returns and work outside the resolve system.

 

The designers were so clueless they actually gave one AC all of the above...A hybrid spec that is somehow allowed to exist in this game while other hybrid specs were nerfed.

Edited February 27, 2012 by biowareftw

[Fafryd]

Hello stunlock. Goodbye movement.

 

Why get close?

[psysention]

Game engine can't support more then 8 v 8 battles (and keep good fps).

 

Warriors in WoW can charge and then bladestorm while being immune to CC. In this game you charge get stunned by 20 people, trinket and get stunned again (mostly because people are slow, not because they are "skill stunlocking you".

 

In addition melee in WoW can get buffs from healers/self so that they are immune to kites, CC. Also most LONG CC in WoW has an actual cast time from ranged.

 

Also? Good luck with trying to play a melee at 5-10 fps in a large zerg...

 

So what do you get? Mostly ez mode ranged classes staring at eachother. Why the hell would I charge 20 or more people when I am just going to be stunned to death and unable to even do anything? I don't get valor when I am dead...

 

Add to that? Why would I play a rogue class and pick off healers in the back when it takes too long in this game and I am going to be knocked back from my target with no way to get back and THEN stunned to death? In this game ranged can stunlock (stupidest thing I have ever seen) in group pvp.

 

Blame Game engine, horrible class balance between ranged/melee, WAY too much CC (the hybrid spec sage/sorc is BEYOND STUPID).

 

The game engine? They can fix/optimize. The biased designers who basically took WoW and gimped melee in every single way? You can't fix that.

 

In WoW melee are the point men. In SWTOR? Melee can't reach their target outside of small fights. I had no problem with melee in WoW. As a sage/sorc in this game? LOL. It is just faceroll. All the tools melee had in WoW are absent here and ranged got stuns and all instant cast cc and roots that have no diminishing returns and work outside the resolve system.

 

The designers were so clueless they actually gave one AC all of the above...A hybrid spec that is somehow allowed to exist in this game while other hybrid specs were nerfed.

 

100% agree with this post

 

GAME ENGINE CAN NOT HANDLE MORE THAN 8 V 8

ranged classes much better in every way

too many CC in this game..

[biowareftw]

Hello stunlock. Goodbye movement.

 

Why get close?

 

Exactly.

 

As a sentinel in zerg vs zerg if I charge I am stunned as soon as I land and dead instantly. The only thing I can do is sometimes get off an AWE (aoe mez that breaks on dmg and gives people resolve), which makes it pointless. I can then (if i have a trinket) invis and sometimes make it back to my side of the zerg, by blowing half my health to be immune for a few seconds (immune to dmg NOT to CC).

 

I accomplished nothing, did no dmg and gave people resolve.

 

Or I can charge. Forcesweep for like 1200 dmg (even if I was focus/rage I would never get off my crush plus 4 seconds plus sweep) and then be stunned to death.

 

For charging them as melee? I get no valor. I die, do crap dmg and then get no valor lol.

 

If this was WoW? I would find two pocket healers charge, pop everything and bladestorm while immune to CC. I could piggyback the bladestorm with a fear. This would send the team running in all directions and normal pvp would ensue and though I might die? I actually did something and can take someone out before being stunned to death by range classes.

[Toranna]

Game engine can't support more then 8 v 8 battles (and keep good fps).

 

Warriors in WoW can charge and then bladestorm while being immune to CC. In this game you charge get stunned by 20 people, trinket and get stunned again (mostly because people are slow, not because they are "skill stunlocking you".

 

In addition melee in WoW can get buffs from healers/self so that they are immune to kites, CC. Also most LONG CC in WoW has an actual cast time from ranged.

 

Also? Good luck with trying to play a melee at 5-10 fps in a large zerg...

 

So what do you get? Mostly ez mode ranged classes staring at eachother. Why the hell would I charge 20 or more people when I am just going to be stunned to death and unable to even do anything? I don't get valor when I am dead...

 

Add to that? Why would I play a rogue class and pick off healers in the back when it takes too long in this game and I am going to be knocked back from my target with no way to get back and THEN stunned to death? In this game ranged can stunlock (stupidest thing I have ever seen) in group pvp.

 

Blame Game engine, horrible class balance between ranged/melee, WAY too much CC (the hybrid spec sage/sorc is BEYOND STUPID).

 

The game engine? They can fix/optimize. The biased designers who basically took WoW and gimped melee in every single way? You can't fix that.

 

In WoW melee are the point men. In SWTOR? Melee can't reach their target outside of small fights. I had no problem with melee in WoW. As a sage/sorc in this game? LOL. It is just faceroll. All the tools melee had in WoW are absent here and ranged got stuns and all instant cast cc and roots that have no diminishing returns and work outside the resolve system.

 

The designers were so clueless they actually gave one AC all of the above...A hybrid spec that is somehow allowed to exist in this game while other hybrid specs were nerfed.

 

There is so much truth in this. Shadowtown use to be a good server for pretty fair PvP, but now it is 3 or 4 to 1 Imps to Repbubs. And the Imps are getting more and mroe geared people were as we are loosing all our geared pwoplw, because of the retarded Illum and WZ imbalance right now.

 

Played 7 WZs tonight and went up agaisnt at least 5 Sorcs in each one. Last WZ had 5 Sorcs and 3 Mercs (2 premades), lets just say they nuked everyone and noone could get into range to a damn thing. They ended up farming us in the final room for what seemed like forever. They were AOEing the ramp down so people could not get out, and ifg you did your were chained stunned and nuked to death.

 

For the performance issues, they need to lets us turn off spell detail and the engine could survie alot better in large scale PvP. And for the love of god TURN OFF AUTO FACING in PVP.

[Nazguapo]

Game engine can't support more then 8 v 8 battles (and keep good fps).

 

Warriors in WoW can charge and then bladestorm while being immune to CC. In this game you charge get stunned by 20 people, trinket and get stunned again (mostly because people are slow, not because they are "skill stunlocking you".

 

In addition melee in WoW can get buffs from healers/self so that they are immune to kites, CC. Also most LONG CC in WoW has an actual cast time from ranged.

 

Also? Good luck with trying to play a melee at 5-10 fps in a large zerg...

 

So what do you get? Mostly ez mode ranged classes staring at eachother. Why the hell would I charge 20 or more people when I am just going to be stunned to death and unable to even do anything? I don't get valor when I am dead...

 

Add to that? Why would I play a rogue class and pick off healers in the back when it takes too long in this game and I am going to be knocked back from my target with no way to get back and THEN stunned to death? In this game ranged can stunlock (stupidest thing I have ever seen) in group pvp.

 

Blame Game engine, horrible class balance between ranged/melee, WAY too much CC (the hybrid spec sage/sorc is BEYOND STUPID).

 

The game engine? They can fix/optimize. The biased designers who basically took WoW and gimped melee in every single way? You can't fix that.

 

In WoW melee are the point men. In SWTOR? Melee can't reach their target outside of small fights. I had no problem with melee in WoW. As a sage/sorc in this game? LOL. It is just faceroll. All the tools melee had in WoW are absent here and ranged got stuns and all instant cast cc and roots that have no diminishing returns and work outside the resolve system.

 

The designers were so clueless they actually gave one AC all of the above...A hybrid spec that is somehow allowed to exist in this game while other hybrid specs were nerfed.

 

Just gonna point out that there's a million threads just like this in the WoW PvP forums.

[biowareftw]

There is so much truth in this. Shadowtown use to be a good server for pretty fair PvP, but now it is 3 or 4 to 1 Imps to Repbubs. And the Imps are getting more and mroe geared people were as we are loosing all our geared pwoplw, because of the retarded Illum and WZ imbalance right now.

 

Played 7 WZs tonight and went up agaisnt at least 5 Sorcs in each one. Last WZ had 5 Sorcs and 3 Mercs (2 premades), lets just say they nuked everyone and noone could get into range to a damn thing. They ended up farming us in the final room for what seemed like forever. They were AOEing the ramp down so people could not get out, and ifg you did your were chained stunned and nuked to death.

 

For the performance issues, they need to lets us turn off spell detail and the engine could survie alot better in large scale PvP. And for the love of god TURN OFF AUTO FACING in PVP.

 

Yeah .

 

BTW fantastic idea on spell detail. There should be an option to turn it down BIGTIME. Performance hits seem to be be the biggest when aoe animations are on top of a zerg. All players need to see is the circle on the ground to know their is aoe. We don't need to see every individual rocket etc.

 

It works great in 8 vs 8 (if you have a good computer). It is FANTASTIC for leveling and raids. Large scale pvp? Brings performance to a halt. I don't think it would be that hard to implement. WoW had this option for a long time.

[Wesleyhjw]

spawn more overlords

[Aidank]

Game engine can't support more then 8 v 8 battles (and keep good fps).

 

Warriors in WoW can charge and then bladestorm while being immune to CC. In this game you charge get stunned by 20 people, trinket and get stunned again (mostly because people are slow, not because they are "skill stunlocking you".

 

In addition melee in WoW can get buffs from healers/self so that they are immune to kites, CC. Also most LONG CC in WoW has an actual cast time from ranged.

 

Also? Good luck with trying to play a melee at 5-10 fps in a large zerg...

 

So what do you get? Mostly ez mode ranged classes staring at eachother. Why the hell would I charge 20 or more people when I am just going to be stunned to death and unable to even do anything? I don't get valor when I am dead...

 

Add to that? Why would I play a rogue class and pick off healers in the back when it takes too long in this game and I am going to be knocked back from my target with no way to get back and THEN stunned to death? In this game ranged can stunlock (stupidest thing I have ever seen) in group pvp.

 

Blame Game engine, horrible class balance between ranged/melee, WAY too much CC (the hybrid spec sage/sorc is BEYOND STUPID).

 

The game engine? They can fix/optimize. The biased designers who basically took WoW and gimped melee in every single way? You can't fix that.

 

In WoW melee are the point men. In SWTOR? Melee can't reach their target outside of small fights. I had no problem with melee in WoW. As a sage/sorc in this game? LOL. It is just faceroll. All the tools melee had in WoW are absent here and ranged got stuns and all instant cast cc and roots that have no diminishing returns and work outside the resolve system.

 

The designers were so clueless they actually gave one AC all of the above...A hybrid spec that is somehow allowed to exist in this game while other hybrid specs were nerfed.

 

This guy is right.

 

Except, I have to add that pulls (assassin / powertech) are amazingly useful in zergy pvp.

[biowareftw]

Just gonna point out that there's a million threads just like this in the WoW PvP forums.

 

What is your point? That this game has more CC/more stuns a worse system then diminishing returns and gimps melee more in every way?

 

Does WoW have too much CC? Yup, but there are counters (fear immune, knockback immune, immune all, spell immunity) at melees disposal and cleanses from healers make melee viable. In addition melee have multiple ways to get back on their target, LONG CC from ranged is not instant cast and frostnova doesn't throw you back and then root you, while at the same time being having no effect on diminishing returns/resolve. You can be rooted during full resolve and then get HARD CC'd again afterwards. It is just silly.

 

WoW has too much CC but good play, coordination, gets past it.

 

SWTOR has MORE CC, is all instant cast, has a worse system then diminishing returns and there is no real counter to stacked hybrid sorc/tank/heal teams.

 

This isn't a l2p issue, this is a learn to develop issue. It is like SWTOR designers didn't learn from their past failures and refused to learn what has worked in other games. That is called incompetence. I am sorry but when I can play a warzone on a sage, lead dmg, have the most CC, offheal like a champ, and not be scared of dying at all from melee, because they usually rage quit after only being able to hit their target for 2 out of 10 seconds?

 

That is OP. Classes in WoW have roles. Mages are control. Rogues are control. Neither class ever is leading dmg in warzones when specced for control. If they are? All the other players are very bad or legendaries/new skill trees are involved at the end of an expansion, where they are attempting to balance the next expansion, and not current content.

Edited February 27, 2012 by biowareftw

[Cernow]

They bolted PvP onto a PVE game so it's all rather an afterthought. It seems they've only really attempted to balance the classes around warzones (and not particularly successfully even there). Open World PvP and zerg vs zerg PvP are very different animals to warzones and I just don't think Bioware understand this format.

 

In zerg vs zerg you need 'crowd breakers' - classes that can push into the enemy pack, cause some disruption and split the zerg up a bit. This is best suited to tanks and melee dps if they are given abilities that allow them to close the gap and temporarily be immune to crowd control. With some healing backup this allows for a push.

 

But currently in this game tanks and melee dps are just ping pong balls for ranged classes to play with. If melee can manage to close the gap they are either stunned repeatedly and focused down. Or otherwise they are constantly knocked back and bounced around. It's a terrible design and something the devs should really have seen coming. All they needed to do was study some other MMOs.

[sylorien]

Just gonna point out that there's a million threads just like this in the WoW PvP forums.

 

As I mentioned in the original post, AV sucks also, but AV sucks WAY WAY less than Ilum, so explain the difference.

 

I literally see 48 players standing next to 48 players every night in Ilum with both sides afraid to approach each other. That's not a fun video game.

[Toranna]

As I mentioned in the original post, AV sucks also, but AV sucks WAY WAY less than Ilum, so explain the difference.

 

I literally see 48 players standing next to 48 players every night in Ilum with both sides afraid to approach each other. That's not a fun video game.

 

We dont see that on Shadowtown, But we never get to 48 as Repubs anymore. Most we get is 30 or so and we will fend off the Imps for 15-20 minutes, however long it takes all the kiddies to get their Twitter feed and log in >. Then we will get farmed for 10-15 minutes by 60+ Imps and all the Repubs leave and then the Imps run around in circles zerging the 10 Repubs still trying to do daily/weekly.

 

But at least we try to fight back for awhile, not often do we succeed, but soemtiems it is pretty good pvp.

 

If they want to minimize the Zerg mentality, remove the containers, Put defendable objext at ALL CONTROLS POINTS, and if you control a point for certain period of time you get a point, after a certain number of point gains you complete your quests. Just an idea, and would need alot of testing and tweaking to make it viable, so i know it will never happen in this game.

[Halofax]

Zerg pvp doesnt work because:

 

A.) Healing is seriously overpowered. Whoever has more healers (not even skilled) wins. Period.

 

B.) Most people just sit in the back using AoEs to tag kills and then leave when their daily is done.

 

No one cares to pvp, just to get the gear.