Could Qui-Gon Jinn have trained Anakin any better than Obi-wan?

[Tuscad]

You seem kinda wrong on alot of points.

 

Not sure I go for the whole "will of the force" type of stuff as an excuse. Even if i did that sounds like rubbish, cause the force is supose to be all good and stuff. The dark side is described as an aberation, a cancer on the universe NOT a true aspect of the force itself. Why would the force (being good) want Anakin to fall only to be redeemed? Especialy since all the bad stuff never would have happened if he hadn't fell in the first place.

 

Obi-wan wasn't anymore at fault though, than the council though. He obviously did his best. The council knew the risks involved with training him in the beggining, but seem to have forgotten towards the end. Ignoring his desire for power (to be on the council) and instead placing him in even more precarious position to spy on Palpatine.

 

Also, there were plenty of force users around besides Luke, Vader, and Sidious. The emporer had some working for him. Plenty elsewhere in the galaxy. Most were never trained as Jedi in the first place though. Remember that (while I dislike it, it seems to be what the writers meant) the idea of balance refered to in the prophecy is NO dark side users, not an equal number. Its supose to only be balanced if the dark side is virtually non-existant. This goes back to idea that the dark side is an aberation that isn't supose to exist.

 

The light and dark need each other. As long as there is a light a shadow can be cast. The only way for everything to balance out is for there to be no one light side or dark side left standing, in other words all force users must die or must be 1 light and 1 dark.

 

I also said in my previous post to disregard the EU, the EU and bring balance to the force theory doesn't work together. The only way that balance was brought to the force by what Vader did is the fact that Luke was the last force user and therefore when he died there would be no more force users or light and dark.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Tuscad

[Ravshar]

The light and dark need each other. As long as there is a light a shadow can be cast. The only way for everything to balance out is for there to be no one light side or dark side left standing, in other words all force users must die or must be 1 light and 1 dark.

 

Not talking about the EU, its been said that Lucas version of balance is no dark side at all. All that light and dark needing each other is how some people who don't control the SW universe think it should be. Not saying I disagree with you on how it "should" be, its just thats not what the writers wrote.

[Tuscad]

Not talking about the EU, its been said that Lucas version of balance is no dark side at all. All that light and dark needing each other is how some people who don't control the SW universe think it should be. Not saying I disagree with you on how it "should" be, its just thats not what the writers wrote.

 

Fair enough I never really understood why George decided to bring the lines having to do with "bring balance to the force" and "the chosen one" into Star Wars, it always seems so goofy and it ends up causing confusion as it can be interpreted multiple ways.

[GarfieldJL]

It wouldn't have mattered if Yoda himself had trained Anakin. When one is destined to fall, they fall, there is no way to get around that. Obi-wan was not to blame for Anakin's fall it was the will of the force as Luke was also not to be praised for Anakin's Redemption as again it was the will of the force. Anakin was destined to be redeemed eventually as it was the only way to bring balance to the force. (EU withstanding) If you stop and think even if Luke had died Vader and Sidious would have been the only to force users left and both were on the darkside this would not have brought balance to the force, the force would only had been balanced by Sidious and Vader or Anakin killing each other.

 

I thought the Emperor said that Luke's destiny was to kill his own father...

 

Futures aren't fixed.

[Porridgeskeletor]

Anakin was the chosen one, and did return balance to the force, the Jedi were just too arrogant to think that returning balance meant favoring them.

I think since it was a prophecy, that Qui Gon training him would have made no difference, as "fate" would have made it so that Anakin would return balance in a different way (dark and light side balence)

Edited March 2, 2012 by Porridgeskeletor

[Porridgeskeletor]

I thought the Emperor said that Luke's destiny was to kill his own father...

 

Futures aren't fixed.

That is what he wanted his destiny to be. Legitiment prophecies are different to Sith manipulation.

[Tuscad]

I thought the Emperor said that Luke's destiny was to kill his own father...

 

Futures aren't fixed.

 

A prophecy is a fixed thing, thus fixing Anakin's future. The Emperor isn't all knowing as your quote proved, I believe the Emperor had a vision that just caught a small glimpse of Luke taking Vaders mask off. Lol.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Tuscad

[Darth_Pernisc]

Not talking about the EU, its been said that Lucas version of balance is no dark side at all. All that light and dark needing each other is how some people who don't control the SW universe think it should be. Not saying I disagree with you on how it "should" be, its just thats not what the writers wrote.

 

Lucas flip flops on this about as often as a normal person changes underwear. It's as easy to find quotes of him saying that the Light/Dark Sides are codependent as it is to find him saying that the DS is an aberration. Hell he even has stated that the DS is stronger after decades of saying it isn't. Lucas isn't consistent about what the Force is or should be at all.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Darth_Pernisc

[RaHarmakis]

Having read the YA book series that delt with Qui-Gon training Obi-Wan, it was shown that Qui-Gon had already had a Padawan fall to the darkside.

 

But then again, this padawan seemed to be a run of the mill Jedi, while Obi-Wan started out as a Youngling destined for the Agri Corps, when Qui-Gon decided to take him on as a Padawan, and Obi turns out to be arguably one the best of the Old Republic Jedi.

 

So I think that Qui-Gon was good at teaching non standard Padawans. He has also lost a padawan to the darkside, so might recognize the signs.

 

I agree that he would have gotten inbetween Anakin and Palps, and that would have messed up the grand plan.

[Darth_Pernisc]

Obi-Wan started out as a Youngling destined for the Agri Corps, when Qui-Gon decided to take him on as a Padawan, and Obi turns out to be arguably one the best of the Old Republic Jedi.

 

Which only goes to highlight how flawed the Jedi had become.

[Sneakycheeks]

Oh yes. I think Qui Gon wouldve have kept him away from Palptine more and Anakin would have listened to Qui Gon

 

Technically it was only because of Anakin's love for Padme and his fear of losing her that he spent so much time with Palptine in the first place. Alot of people believe that Anakin's being taught by Obi-Wan wasn't the lead to his down fall..but that it was because Anakin loved Padme that he fell to the Darkside.

[Sneakycheeks]

Alot of you in this discussion are forgetting one thing. The MAIN reason that Anakin spent any time with Palpatine in the first place..was because he had fallen in love with Padme..and started having "nightmares" about her death. Palpatine sensed that Anakin was troubeld by this..and lured Anakin to him with promises of teaching him how to save Padme. Thefore a lot of poeple beileve that it was because of his love for Padme that Anakin fell to the darkside..and if he had never loved her..he would have stayed a Jedi.

[Ravshar]

Alot of you in this discussion are forgetting one thing. The MAIN reason that Anakin spent any time with Palpatine in the first place..was because he had fallen in love with Padme..and started having "nightmares" about her death.

 

Don't think so. Anakin and Palpatine were already friends before he had the nightmares. If you remember/watched the end of the first prequel, Palpatine had sensed Anakin's potential and was interested in him before he had even started training. Its quite possible that Palpatine, being an evil genious and all, would have found connections to Anakin even without Padme.

[Darth_Pernisc]

Alot of you in this discussion are forgetting one thing. The MAIN reason that Anakin spent any time with Palpatine in the first place..was because he had fallen in love with Padme..and started having "nightmares" about her death.

 

Uh...no.

 

It was established in EPII that Palpatine served as arguably Anakin's favorite mentor (sometimes even over Obi-Wan) and friend basically the entire time he was with the Jedi. They had already grown close during the ten year time skip between TPM and AOTC.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Darth_Pernisc

[Sneakycheeks]

Don't think so. Anakin and Palpatine were already friends before he had the nightmares. If you remember/watched the end of the first prequel, Palpatine had sensed Anakin's potential and was interested in him before he had even started training. Its quite possible that Palpatine, being an evil genious and all, would have found connections to Anakin even without Padme.

 

This is true..I had forgoten about them meeting when he was boy. Its been a while since I've seen The Phantom Meance.

[BrandonSM]

Uh...no.

 

It was established in EPII that Palpatine served as arguably Anakin's favorite mentor (sometimes even over Obi-Wan) and friend basically the entire time he was with the Jedi. They had already grown close during the ten year time skip between TPM and AOTC.

 

This.

 

It was during Ep. 3 did Palps move in for the kill after Tyrannus's death. But before that he and Obi-wan battled for the title of Anakin's best friend.

[GarfieldJL]

Uh...no.

 

It was established in EPII that Palpatine served as arguably Anakin's favorite mentor (sometimes even over Obi-Wan) and friend basically the entire time he was with the Jedi. They had already grown close during the ten year time skip between TPM and AOTC.

 

Which I don't think would have worked if Qui Gon had been Anakin's master. Qui Gon was almost a father figure to Anakin.

 

I don't think Anakin's love of Padme is what caused the fall, I think Palpatine used that as a vulnerability that he could exploit to manipulate Anakin.

 

If you see Episode III and Yoda's discussion with Anakin, I think Anakin would have been more open about it to Qui Gon (and if you think about it, the vision could have easily just been a normal child birth that Anakin mistakenly thought it was Padme dieing).

 

If Anakin's teacher had been Nejaa Halcyon for instance, I really don't think he would fallen. Nejaa had some weaknesses in certain abilities, but considering he not only got secretly married but had a kid, I think Anakin would have been able to be open about his concerns with Nejaa.

 

We also have to remember that Obi Wan was reeling from Qui Gon's death when he took on Anakin as his student. The only reason he was training Anakin was Qui Gon's last wishes, that probably set up some trust issues early on. Whereas Qui Gon made it clear to Anakin that he trusted Anakin.

 

 

Finally, if you read the Episode I novel, you would know there was a scene cut out that revealed Anakin did have a temper (this didn't mean it would have made him evil), Qui Gon knew that Anakin could be quick to anger, if you read into Obi Wan's past he could have a temper too, he would have known how to teach Anakin to deal with his anger. He also knew how much Anakin's mother meant to Anakin and probably wouldn't have prevented the boy from remaining in contact with her.

 

In summary, Anakin needed a Jedi that could bend and adapt their teaching to fit a non-traditional student. Anakin was a good deal older than the standard youngling and probably had some emotional issues, that a teacher like Qui Gon and Yoda could have worked through, but Obi Wan stuck to the traditional teaching style.

[Darth_Pernisc]

I don't think Anakin's love of Padme is what caused the fall, I think Palpatine used that as a vulnerability that he could exploit to manipulate Anakin.

 

Exactly.

 

What I believe many people who complain about the apparent "abruptness" of Anakin's fall is just how long and how well Palpatine manipulated Anakin. He wasn't a bastion of purity prior to his fall, he was a man trying to do good but very much on the edge for a long long time prior to it.

 

Do I think Qui-Gon's tutelage would have proven problematic to Sidious's designs? Absolutely. Would it have been a deal breaker for the man who simultaneously manipulated both sides of the Republic/Separatist war, the Galactic Senate, the entire freaking Jedi Order, and for good measure every singly being in the galaxy? No. I believe Sids in his prime (as opposed to the overconfidence-addled shell of his former self that he'd become by ROTJ) would have had his way with Anakin eventually. He'd just have had a harder time of it instead of the dead easy time he had with it.

[GarfieldJL]

Exactly.

 

What I believe many people who complain about the apparent "abruptness" of Anakin's fall is just how long and how well Palpatine manipulated Anakin. He wasn't a bastion of purity prior to his fall, he was a man trying to do good but very much on the edge for a long long time prior to it.

 

Do I think Qui-Gon's tutelage would have proven problematic to Sidious's designs? Absolutely. Would it have been a deal breaker for the man who simultaneously manipulated both sides of the Republic/Separatist war, the Galactic Senate, the entire freaking Jedi Order, and for good measure every singly being in the galaxy? No. I believe Sids in his prime (as opposed to the overconfidence-addled shell of his former self that he'd become by ROTJ) would have had his way with Anakin eventually. He'd just have had a harder time of it instead of the dead easy time he had with it.

 

It could also have ended where Anakin may have chosen to stab Palpatine rather than attack Windu. Cause Qui Gon would have probably explained to Anakin that Sith were masters of deception, and Anakin would have been fed up with Palpatine trying to manipulate him. Qui Gon, could also point out that his vision could be a future where a certain Sith Lord was torturing Padme to death, in which case Anakin would definately have chosen to kill Palpatine.

[Darth_Pernisc]

I'm working with the assumption that a timeline as altered as one where Qui-Gon lives and trains Anakin doesn't result in a story where the defining events all occur exactly as they actually did except with Anakin having Qui-Gon's tutelage to fall back on instead of Obi-Wan's.

[ObiWanBaikonur]

It could also have ended where Anakin may have chosen to stab Palpatine rather than attack Windu. Cause Qui Gon would have probably explained to Anakin that Sith were masters of deception, and Anakin would have been fed up with Palpatine trying to manipulate him. Qui Gon, could also point out that his vision could be a future where a certain Sith Lord was torturing Padme to death, in which case Anakin would definately have chosen to kill Palpatine.

 

And wouldn't killing Palpatine have thrust Windu and Anakin down the path to the Dark Side? Wouldn't they have felt the urge/need to take over the Senate and rule it from on high? I suppose this would have the death of the Sith and the fall of Windu/Anakin working at cross purposes--the Sith would be gone but two insanely powerful Dark Jedi would remain.

[BrandonSM]

And wouldn't killing Palpatine have thrust Windu and Anakin down the path to the Dark Side? Wouldn't they have felt the urge/need to take over the Senate and rule it from on high? I suppose this would have the death of the Sith and the fall of Windu/Anakin working at cross purposes--the Sith would be gone but two insanely powerful Dark Jedi would remain.

 

Windu changed in that fight with Palps. I doubt he was even Jedi after beating Sidious.

 

He released himself into Vapaad which is something he had trained his entire life to not do. He had to do what was necessary to kill Palps, but he'd probably be dark-sided after it.

[Ravshar]

And wouldn't killing Palpatine have thrust Windu and Anakin down the path to the Dark Side? Wouldn't they have felt the urge/need to take over the Senate and rule it from on high? I suppose this would have the death of the Sith and the fall of Windu/Anakin working at cross purposes--the Sith would be gone but two insanely powerful Dark Jedi would remain.

 

What I find odd is that Windu is using the same argument for killing Palpatine that Palpsy earlier used on Anakin to get him to kill Dooku. The difference here is that Palpatine is NOT helpless. He is only appearing as such to force Anakain to turn.

 

Either way, killing someone (helpless or not) doesn't turn you into an instant dark jedi. Its a dark step in the wrong direction, but not a one-way leap. If that was the case Anakin was a dark jedi long before any of this. Back when he slaughtered the sand people, or later Dooku?

 

Also, it would have been impossible for Windu and Anakin to control the Senate without Palpatine's connections. And I have a feeling they both would have had alot of explaining to do to both the Senate and the Jedi Council.

 

 

The main thing is though, that it didn't realy matter who Anakin's master was. He was a full knight for quite a while before the third movie setting. If needed Palpatine would have waited until then (no direct master) to start manipulating. The overall failure was of the Council. They knew how powerful Anakin was, they knew other Jedi (Dooku) had been turned, they didn't trust Anakin's friend Palpatine, but they didn't even keep a close enough eye on the "chosen one" to know he was married.

[-Fal-]

No he died

[TJBartlemus]

I just discovered this on how Anakin came to existence which has always confused me. How could he have no father? Well this explains it.

 

"Nearly a decade before his death, Darth Plagueis, and his apprentice, Darth Sidious, committed an act in direct violation to the nature of the Force. To further the Grand Plan, the two Sith had attempted to will a being of their own design into creation, pouring their malicious intent into waves through the Force to the countless midi-chlorians spread across the galaxy. The experiment yielded unfruitful however, and the midi-chlorians, unwilling to comply, not only denied Plagueis' efforts, but struck back in retaliation, conceiving a savior to ultimately destroy the Sith: the prophesied Chosen One, Anakin Skywalker."

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Plagueis

 

So I guess he wasn't destined to go to the dark side, either way he would of killed Sideous, it's just that becoming Darth Vader was one way that it could have been accomplished.