bowndim Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Datacrons were a good idea, with a failed implementation. I say it failed because it is clear almost every single player who bothers with them "cheats" by looking at videos and such instead of trying to figure out how to get them on their own. Since no one is deriving any fun out of the system it was wasted effort. Assuming there is some new planet in a future release, and assuming you populate that planet with some datacrons, here are some thoughts on how to better implement it. For the most part the idea is to make them a easy enough so that players will at least try before cheating, but still challenging enough to make it fun. 1. First, the best datacron imo is the one in taris that uses the air vent. By having to interact with a world object that makes intuitive sense to players, and having to use teamwork, is stands above all others. This is the example to follow. 2. Make the locations obvious. You should be able to see them from places you would go normally (only true for about half of them). In fact they should get highlighted on the map. The challenge should not be in figuring out if there even is a datacron nearby, but how to get to it once found. I have to believe atleast some of the current locations were leaked by developers rather than honestly found. 3. DO NOT use slow moving objects such as cranes, lifts etc. By all means, use moving objects, but please make them fast moving objects. Believe it or not I do have better things to do than to stand around for 40 minutes waiting for a balloon. And god forbid someone misses the jump on a slow moving object and has to start again. Its not a good way to make players like you. 4. DO NOT place the start point half a map away from the datacron. To attempt them myself I have to wonder if every broken beam I happen across may be the start point to some treasure, and there are just too many broken beams in this war torn galaxy to make me willing to search them all. 5. Throw in some hints. Speaking to your companion when near a datacron could yield some suggestion, though you probably dont have the tech for that. Maybe in the dialog of some quest giving NPC, though it would probably have to be a mainline quest for anyone to actually pay attention. 6. Technically challenging maneuvers are fine, but have some pity and place them at the beginning of the puzzle and not the end (see slow moving objects above) 7. Play a game of zelda for inspiration. It has after all been making games around this concept for 25 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frigidman Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Datacrons were a good idea, with a failed implementation. I say it failed because it is clear almost every single player who bothers with them "cheats" by looking at videos and such instead of trying to figure out how to get them on their own. Since no one is deriving any fun out of the system it was wasted effort. This simply is the side effect of technology, free information, and a slew of lazy w** players coming to this game. For every single puzzle or hidden item in any game, you will find the answer to it out there, no matter how easy or difficult the game developers make it. Just the fact bioware put them in, gives people who appreciate it, a boost. Everyone else is still going to be one-click-wonder players, no matter WHAT you try to propose. However there are players who strive to fight the odds of finding the holocrons. Players who refuse to 'look it up'. They rather find it on their own, and feel great accomplishment when they do. Also, people who are lazy and just look up the location and a method to getting there, are not 'cheating'. Cheating would be using flight or clipping hacks to just warp to the cron, grab it, and zip on to the next. 2. Make the locations obvious. You should be able to see them from places you would go normally (only true for about half of them). In fact they should get highlighted on the map. The challenge should not be in figuring out if there even is a datacron nearby, but how to get to it once found. I have to believe atleast some of the current locations were leaked by developers rather than honestly found. Yeah, you have to wonder how some people found some of them. Most I can say though, are 'visible' from normal areas. I have spotted a whole lot of them just by paying attention to the environment. However there are a couple that just blew my mind, and was like "who could find this?" Generally though, every single one is found just by exploring, and poking your nose where it should not be. 3. DO NOT use slow moving objects such as cranes, lifts etc. By all means, use moving objects, but please make them fast moving objects. Believe it or not I do have better things to do than to stand around for 40 minutes waiting for a balloon. And god forbid someone misses the jump on a slow moving object and has to start again. Its not a good way to make players like you. Without realizing there were suggestions out there... me and my group got onto the sand crawler 'by other means' through ingenuity and imagination. We didn't need no stinken 40 minute balloon What it boils down too, is no matter WHAT they try to 'change' about them for future holocrons. There will always be someone posting the solution and location and what you have to do. There will always be lazy players who just look it up so they don't have to think or pay attention or omg spend time in game exploring n stuf™. I blame smart phones for this. And w**. Those devices are breeding a new kind of lazy human Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axvil Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 LOL, I actually really dislike your favorite datacron. Or any other ones that require 2+ people, especially if the cube is located at the end of the bonus series area. Unless you have a friend/guildy online, it is very unlikely that you'll find anyone in the area who can help you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanbeam Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I liked that idea. I support this, with all the lobby a single subscriber can muster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiaku Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I enjoyed going super mario and jumping my way to many of them. BW should focus on other issues than this, which is completely irrelevant considering how serious the other issues are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danakar Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 How to fix Datacrons? Fix the MGGS and allow the Datacrons to be accessed by every bodytype. My Jedi Guardian managed to collect all the Datacrons (including the buggy secret one). My Trooper was not so lucky as he can't fit through the cracks on (or rather under) Corellia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickIcewing Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I am one of the "lazy" players you speak of as many of the datacrons are in locations that I simply do not have the skills to get to. I am only level 28 and I have already had to give several datacrons a pass as they are located in places where you have to have "Super Meat Boy" platforming skills to reach. I don't mind a bit of a "challenge" but I don't have the hand/eye coordination or timing to play "fighting games" like Street Fighter let alone make precision jumps that are required to reach several of the datacrons. If I'm paying for a game I demand a "reasonable" opportunity to experience all the available content. Out of the way locations, okay, big monsters in the way, fine, even needing two or more players to gain access, its pushing it but fine, but I have to draw the line where you need to make several precision jumps reach it. I have a question for the developers. How may players actually collect the datacrons. I don't mean a few, but all of them. If there are datacrons that very few of the players get then it is in a very bad location. Remember, what is "challenging" for a small minority of players is all but impossible for the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArykStorm Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I wholeheartedly agree about the jumps. If jumps are going to be that much a part of game play, they need to be doable. I feel the Datacron challenge should be more finding them, or gathering the pieces to unlock them, than going on YouTube and then spending an hour+ trying to jump off of angled platforms that seem like they haven't been designed to stand on let alone jump from. I have come to dread going to a new planet and falling 50+ times trying to get the datacrons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispr Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I accidentally spotted a few datacrons while shuttling from one point to another. I like to pan around the shuttle to see the landscape and saw the distinctive glow/radiance of a datacron. Now remembering any specific landmarks can be a pain I'll admit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korzald Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I agree that making them hard to get to by the jumping method is a total failure. What I would have like to have seen instead is you find one and it gives you a quest with steps to locate the next one. You could do this for each character in the game and have 10+ different quest lines and it would add more to the whole. Yes people will eventually map out all the quest lines but for some they will not have to worry with or even bothering to go looking for the solutions they can just do the quest and stay immersed in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeruleanNite Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I agree that making them hard to get to by the jumping method is a total failure. What I would have like to have seen instead is you find one and it gives you a quest with steps to locate the next one. You could do this for each character in the game and have 10+ different quest lines and it would add more to the whole. Yes people will eventually map out all the quest lines but for some they will not have to worry with or even bothering to go looking for the solutions they can just do the quest and stay immersed in the game. Nice idea, but look at how much screaming there is now because not all quests can be abandoned. Just think how that will play out if you add quests in for datacrons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandma Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 How to fix Datacrons? Fix the MGGS and allow the Datacrons to be accessed by every bodytype. My Jedi Guardian managed to collect all the Datacrons (including the buggy secret one). My Trooper was not so lucky as he can't fit through the cracks on (or rather under) Corellia I am also a large size guardian who cannot fit through those cracks to get that one. May I suggest the following to you, as this is how myself and a friend were able to get it for me: Get a consular with force pull ability who has a small frame and can get it - get them to get it and walk out towards the furthest open edge of the girders the datacron is under. With your guardian, go to where there's an NPC jedi (I think) stood facing out over the edge and jump onto the railing there. Take sprint off to make it easier. Have your consular friend have you highlighted and time your step off backwards with them. If yuo time it just right, they can pull you onto the beams they are standing on and you can easily jump your way to the datacron. We managed to do this first time, without suiciding once - after we'd tried every other method of getting through the cracks and such. I disagree with OP. I thoroughly enjoy the datacrons the way they are. Most are fairly easy to get for most. My guild and our allied guild love these and I have hosted datacron events where we'll go round in a big group of 10-20 of us and collectively get all of them in order. About a third of the players struggled with the jumps and tasks required and we helped them a lot and once they'd failed a fair few times we had people on hand to pull them up etc. This all encouraged teamwork and repeated trying. The hardest are generally the ones on Nar Shadaa, as those jumps stymied most and were the biggest boundary to people doing them. I do agree it would be wonderful for people to have to figure them out - but you will never have that happen due to the internet. The most fun I had was when I saw the datacron in the pipe on taris and spent a good deal of time going around the map trying to find what might look like a starting point. I sincerely hope they continue the datacrons as they have been doing. Even with guides people still struggle a little, enough to make them fun and an achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therrak Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 The only fixing that the datacron system needs is fixing it so body type 3 characters don't need to rely on other players to get the last Alderaan and Corellia datacrons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclonit Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I collected all of the datacrons (Imperial side) and looked up the exact location online. However I found the path to every single datacron myself, except for the ones on Nar Shaddaa which are rather impossible to find for someone, who does not know where the jump and run part begins. Giving people hints on where the datacrons are and what the player has to do to find them would be a good idea I think. It would not harm those who have no interest or want to search completely by themselves, as long as the hints are not thrown at you while talking to someone in a story quest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesgile Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 as far as i remember, datacrons at least lets out some kind of a humming sound, i remember hearing one of these just to realize there's one datacron just sitting there right above my head. though i think it's pretty inaudible and short range, so it doesn't help much really. all in all, i agree that those should be placed on places that needs logic and creativity to get to, instead of all the jumping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeRanger Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 The only fixing that the datacron system needs is fixing it so body type 3 characters don't need to rely on other players to get the last Alderaan and Corellia datacrons. Hummm I thought Body types were the Problem, sorta, I have type 3 and type 4 Body on a couple of my toons, and some times trying to get to Datacrons I hit invisable walls, and with my toons that use body type 2 ( dont have a type 1) the same datacrons there is no problems. Also I find it hard to get to some becouse of the Jumping invalved, I'm slightly disabled, and dont have full use of my left hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky_walkerPL Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 @ OP - very nice post! Agreed with everything. If there's something I may add: Change locations of datacrons from time to time (eg. with major patches) - yea, it requires quite a bit of work, but we'll reduce this YouTube sillyness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tootzi_ Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I really liked the idea with datacrons, but they were just too hard to find. I realised that after spending 2-3 hours exploring Alderaan without finding a single one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frigidman Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Well, the jumping portion of some locations wouldn't be AS BAD, if jumping wasn't glitchy and problematic. As it stands, it is so easy to 'trip' or 'clip some invisible edge' or some other nonsense which causes your character to go 'oof' instead of actually jump and fly in the direction you were wanting to go. I've noticed its FAR WORSE if you try to do running jumps (the most logical form of jumping across a gap). Those tend to be met with a 'nope, fall' instead of careening across the air. Doing a standing jump+fwd hop has yielded better results, yet its difficult to time and still prone to tripping. This kind of landscape interaction by the player character glitchyness is wide spread, even while just running across what seems like things you should be able to run over... yet instead you snag and trip and get stuck on all kinds of crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowndim Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 This simply is the side effect of technology, free information, and a slew of lazy w** players coming to this game. For every single puzzle or hidden item in any game, you will find the answer to it out there, no matter how easy or difficult the game developers make it. This is of course true with all games, and not something that the designer should try to stop. The point is that the success of the design is a function of how many people choose to use the internet for help verse how many try it themselves. Certainly not every game or feature has the same cheat ratio. I myself try to look up hints as rarely as possible in gaming, but gave up for the majority of datacrons. It is my belief, though others may disagree, that the cheat ratio is very high with this particular feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obzenia Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I like them the way they are now. BW should keep the system they have going. As an experience Super Mario player, I have mastered the jump... and finding secret locations. It's not that hard to notice a starting area for a DC if you don't want to google it... "Hey, look at the way those boxes are stacked... almost inviting me to go jump on them and see where the path goes" OR "Ooooo look at that shiney thing... wonder how to get to it, let me check my map for viable options..." I have *stumbled* on countless DCs without even intending to, was just being curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clanjc Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Well, the jumping portion of some locations wouldn't be AS BAD, if jumping wasn't glitchy and problematic. As it stands, it is so easy to 'trip' or 'clip some invisible edge' or some other nonsense which causes your character to go 'oof' instead of actually jump and fly in the direction you were wanting to go. THIS is the extremely frustrating part of trying to get to datacrons. I enjoy puzzling out how to get to a datacron. I don't enjoy spending hours falling down, especially when I'm so close to getting it. Throwing in a few jumping datacrons is fine, but a whole planet worth? That's just insane. Compare the datacrons between Coruscant and Dromund Kaas. Almost all of Coruscant's are jumping intensive and only 2 of Dromund Kaas has jumps, measly ones at that. Nar Shaddaa does have some pretty crazy jumps too, though some are more puzzle based (Hello, incinerator), which is enjoyable. I do have to say that whoever placed some of these datacrons is one sick person. To summarize, exploration and puzzle solving are great but please have mercy on us and ease up on the jumping intensive ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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