1.1.5 - death of rarity and achievements?!

[Mineria]

As far as I know, Guild Wars' end game content doesn't rely on you having good gear, at least not even close to what the model is like in SWTOR and WoW. Then it works, but in a game where your gear is very important to be able to progress through the content, then stats matter a lot more.

 

Yes, I just brought it up to show that in one or another way there is always some vanity, what ever that involves a unique design on how your character looks or you get stats added.

As long as you don't raid there is no need for the same stats thou, and with an expansion that adds more levels there will also be items with according stats to get from start to end carrying people that never raided along.

[utio]

heh, this is so stupid... a real world analogy would be if they were awarding olympic gold medals for 100m dash for peole riding on a scooters...lol... no, there's only one gold medal for 100m dash, awarded you know, for running. if they started giveing these medals for people riding on vespas, nobody would care for "gold medal" anymore, as it becomes meaningless.

 

You're calling my post stupid, then you post this?!

[SlayerGopher]

What I find fascinating here so far is that the majority of people posting can be broken down into two camps;

1. We want everything attainable because this is a MMO and we are casual players, so why should things (crystals/mats/whatever) be unattainable except by grinding or hardcore players

 

and

 

2. We've worked hard to get this items through Ops and other hard griding work so why should all that effort be diminished so the masses can have what we worked on for so long.

 

I'm a casual player myself, I have a life, kids and a job to keep my time down in-game and I can understand people seeing color crystals/speeders/mats/etc., and wanting it but to me that just diminishes the value and the wow factor of having it myself

 

 

Just because you see something in life doesn't mean you can have it and that should translate itself to the game as well.

[Brundhila]

But what if they did put in the same time commitment, just doing something other than raiding? Would you still deny them something?

 

Absolutely not. And that was the point of my second paragraph. The Devs need to come up with a way to enable and empower casuals so that they may obtain the items thru a different gameplay style. Maybe a long quest chain, maybe single or small group player mode instances, whatever. But THEY DONT. They simply take the easy unimaginative route and nerf the whole process make it easy to get and piss off the raiding crowd. I dont think anyone would deny the casuals the right to obtain gear if the process was implemented in a more challenging way and without nerfs to content.

[utio]

Absolutely not. And that was the point of my second paragraph. The Devs need to come up with a way to enable and empower casuals so that they may obtain the items thru a different gameplay style. Maybe a long quest chain, maybe single or small group player mode instances, whatever. But THEY DONT. They simply take the easy unimaginative route and nerf the whole process make it easy to get and piss off the raiding crowd. I dont think anyone would deny the casuals the right to obtain gear if the process was implemented in a more challenging way and without nerfs to content.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. While I still think it should be mainly for fun, I can see that people want some kind of reward. Everyone should be able to achieve it, through different kinds of playstyles. And it's the devs who need to work on this.

[SlayerGopher]

Absolutely not. And that was the point of my second paragraph. The Devs need to come up with a way to enable and empower casuals so that they may obtain the items thru a different gameplay style. Maybe a long quest chain, maybe single or small group player mode instances, whatever. But THEY DONT. They simply take the easy unimaginative route and nerf the whole process make it easy to get and piss off the raiding crowd. I dont think anyone would deny the casuals the right to obtain gear if the process was implemented in a more challenging way and without nerfs to content.

 

Now that would be a good way since it would still require work and make the achievement of getting that gear/item worth it rather than just having enough credits. And that is my biggest problem with the change, no effort beyond enough credits is involved.

[Vincire]

I agree wholeheartedly. While I still think it should be mainly for fun, I can see that people want some kind of reward. Everyone should be able to achieve it, through different kinds of playstyles. And it's the devs who need to work on this.

 

I also agree. As a non-raider, I simply want an alternative path to raiding but I don't want the items available as easy as buying them from a vendor. Most of us that don't raid don't really want vendor epics, we want a fun, engaging, and immersive way to earn these items just like raiders get.

 

I keep saying this; I really would like to see an implementation of Anarchy Online's mission generator system or a take on diablo's randomized areas and dungeons. Soemthing like that would keep me playing forever.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Vincire

[DieAlteHexe]

^^This, I totally agree. I think what some people are forgetting is that some players game to ACHIEVE things. Once those achievements are taken away (ie: made available to the masses) the game loses it's fun FOR THEM.

 

I would imagine all players want to achieve something. Problems arise when one group thinks their achievement is better'n the next group's.

 

I have watched this thread and read every single message in it and it's been an eye-opener for me. I am bemused by how important this is for some folk. I'll be damned if I can see the reason for such outrage, we're talking pixels here but it apparently really, really matters to some. So be it.

 

Best solution I can see is that everyone has a shot at achieving very nice "stuff" via different routes. PvPers get their nice stuff, raiders, theirs etc. Those who are mainly questers...theirs. Guess that puts the onus on BW to come up with relatively equivalent "nice stuff" for all and paths to achieve the "ultimate" nice stuff for each path. Have the "best nice stuff" be very difficult to obtain for each "path" and that seems fair. Apparently my having access to something that was heretofore the sole provence of PvPers is a crime against something...status? So, fine by me. Actually, all I care about is being effective at what I do...be it raiding, PvPing, questing etc.

 

Otherwise, heads are going to explode. Can't have that.

[Tic-]

Welcome to the next gen MMO...

 

You are not a special snowflake. These games are very little more than your basic COD room targetted at the masses.

 

Queue up for your special instance, and carry on...

 

MMOs are no longer about creating worlds or communities. Just sit in your "lobby" and get ready for your next tank and spank, or node/door/turret guarding.

 

Crafting means very little, your in game repuatation means very little, anything outside of getting your next piece of gear means very little.

 

"Hard-Core" Raiders are not the target audience, world PvPers are not the target audience.

 

Sorry.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Tic-

[CptKloss]

You're calling my post stupid, then you post this?!

 

well, not your post per se but rather the "give everything to everyone NOU! for free!" camp... "Don't Cut Limb You're Sitting On" - fits here perfectly... with decisions like this game is on a straight path to FTP

Edited February 26, 2012 by CptKloss

[utio]

well, not your post per se but rather the "give everything to everyone NOU! for free!" camp... "Don't Cut Limb You're Sitting On" - fits here perfectly... with decisions like this game is on a straight path to FTP

 

But I'm not asking for freebies. Read a few posts up and you'll see what I mean.

[Mineria]

I would imagine all players want to achieve something. Problems arise when one group thinks their achievement is better'n the next group's.

 

I have watched this thread and read every single message in it and it's been an eye-opener for me. I am bemused by how important this is for some folk. I'll be damned if I can see the reason for such outrage, we're talking pixels here but it apparently really, really matters to some. So be it.

 

Best solution I can see is that everyone has a shot at achieving very nice "stuff" via different routes. PvPers get their nice stuff, raiders, theirs etc. Those who are mainly questers...theirs. Guess that puts the onus on BW to come up with relatively equivalent "nice stuff" for all and paths to achieve the "ultimate" nice stuff for each path. Have the "best nice stuff" be very difficult to obtain for each "path" and that seems fair. Apparently my having access to something that was heretofore the sole provence of PvPers is a crime against something...status? So, fine by me. Actually, all I care about is being effective at what I do...be it raiding, PvPing, questing etc.

 

Otherwise, heads are going to explode. Can't have that.

Someone wrote about the popular way to do it in a reply to one of my posts earlier.

The popular way would be, to make alike items available that can gained on more casual terms.

What that means is, the same items with slightly lowered stats from instances possible to do as a none raider.

Reason to have a slight separation on these stats is to keep raiding people raiding, since else they could just do the casual stuff to get the same stuff.

That would greatly reduce their challenge in game (is it even a challenge atm.?), and make the game loose value for those people pretty fast.

A MMORPG that want's to be successful over a long period of time needs to keep all kinds of people interested, from those who only can play 1 hour a week to those who can play 24/7.

Same goes for some cosmetic stuff, since it already has been given in one way.

 

As for importance of the discussion, it's not about the pixels but about getting the game to grow, to keep it alive for some years, since I guess most of us actually like the game.

For that there needs to be some epeen, what ever one likes it or not.

[Mineria]

Welcome to the next gen MMO...

 

You are not a special snowflake. These games are very little more than a basic COD room targetted at the masses.

 

Queue up for your special instance, and carry on...

 

MMOs are no longer about creating worlds or communities. Just sit in your "lobby" and get ready for your next tank and spank, or node/door/turret guarding.

 

Crafting means very little, your in game repuatation means very little, anything outside of getting your next piece of gear means very little.

 

"Hard-Core" Raiders are not the target audience, world PvPers are not the target audience.

 

Sorry.

 

Are you talking about Hello Kitty Online?

[Mattderp]

And so it begins.

[soulself]

I see no problem with this, as a person that dose not play with a huge amount of people i will never do anything above a 4 man flash point (unless you can do 8 man raids with 4 players and 4 companions) and i never cared for pvp at all. and because i do not do raids and PvP i am not allowed to have certain things in the game?

 

personally i would like it if everything in the game could be bought sooner or later for the right amount of creds.

[Tic-]

Are you talking about Hello Kitty Online?

 

I didn't say i like it, but i have come to accept it.

 

I am looking at more independant titles that are coming out. I enjoy PvP, and i don't think i will get what i want from a AAA title anymore (not that i have in recent years, but one did at least try, though failing miserably)

 

I suspect raiders are in the same boat, but we'll see.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Tic-

[Brundhila]

I think this threads main topic and the varying opinions congealed nicely on page 46. BW needs to implement different means in which to obtain the same items by capitalizing on the playstyles of their customers. Nerfing everything or making items purchasable isn't the way to keep all kinds of players interested in the game. For longevity and playability, BW needs to be more imaginative. Edited February 26, 2012 by Brundhila

[grucho]

So you're leaving the game because your shiny toy isn't that shiny anymore? Don't think you LIKED the game in the first place.

 

This will be among reasons why I leave. Not the main one but definitely in top 5. It's all about feeling unique in games like MMO, you can play your mobile apps if you want to be like everyone else.

Edited February 26, 2012 by grucho

[CptKloss]

personally i would like it if everything in the game could be bought sooner or later for the right amount of creds.

 

well, that's not as idiotic as it seems on a surface. of course to implement a system like this would require the game to have a meaningful economy, where ability to make money is a feat in itself, not something trivial as it is in SWTOR.

[DieAlteHexe]

Someone wrote about the popular way to do it in a reply to one of my posts earlier.

The popular way would be, to make alike items available that can gained on more casual terms.

What that means is, the same items with slightly lowered stats from instances possible to do as a none raider.

Reason to have a slight separation on these stats is to keep raiding people raiding, since else they could just do the casual stuff to get the same stuff.

That would greatly reduce their challenge in game (is it even a challenge atm.?), and make the game loose value for those people pretty fast.

A MMORPG that want's to be successful over a long period of time needs to keep all kinds of people interested, from those who only can play 1 hour a week to those who can play 24/7.

Same goes for some cosmetic stuff, since it already has been given in one way.

 

As for importance of the discussion, it's not about the pixels but about getting the game to grow, to keep it alive for some years, since I guess most of us actually like the game.

For that there needs to be some epeen, what ever one likes it or not.

 

I don't understand. If you like raiding...that in and of itself should be the reward, actually. So basically this is a ... well...bribe? Eh, that sounded too harsh and I didn't mean it to. Incentive. Right?

 

Maybe I need to restate my thought...or I'm just bein' stubborn (take yer pick! ).

 

This whole "epeen" thing baffles me, truly does. I mean, in theory, I get it but...for me, anyway, I set my goals (PvP, raid, what have you) and I go for them. If I make it, hurrah for me! If I don't, I either keep trying or bugger off and do something else.

 

I don't need to be "better" than someone else or have spiffier stuff (my only concern is effectiveness vs. whatever I'm taking on...well, okay, I'd rather not look like a clown barfed on me whilst at it, I'll admit that.) If I get ÜberGlovesOfArseKicking and then I see someone next week with same gloves, it doesn't faze me in the least nor how they got 'em. In fact, I think: Good on'em. The reverse as well. I see someone with "x" and I might think: Whooo! New goal. Or...not worth my effort.

 

I guess I just don't get this whole mentality. I can't say it's wrong, it mimics RL to a great extent. Perhaps that's it...I have plenty of RL which can be a trial at time so when I game I rather like leaving some of the things I am not overly fond of to RL. I've never much be into status. I have other ways of defining my worth to myself.

 

It's been a very interesting discussion and I've learned a great deal so for that, despite the snarkiness of some, it's been worth the time indeed. Hope it gets sorted (g'luck, BW, LOL!) so that everyone's content.

[grucho]

I see no problem with this, as a person that dose not play with a huge amount of people i will never do anything above a 4 man flash point (unless you can do 8 man raids with 4 players and 4 companions) and i never cared for pvp at all. and because i do not do raids and PvP i am not allowed to have certain things in the game?

 

personally i would like it if everything in the game could be bought sooner or later for the right amount of creds.

 

Why you need gear aimed for raids if you don't raid? So you can kill your mobs while you do dailies 0.1 sec faster? Greedy, greeeeeeedy baddies on a roll, just like in WoW.

Edited February 26, 2012 by grucho

[Vincire]

Why you need gear aimed for raids if you don't raid? So you can kill your mobs while you do dailies 0.1 sec faster? Greedy, greeeeeeedy baddies on a roll, just like in WoW.

 

Non-raiders are "baddies"? Wishing for content that provides a long lasting character progression in the same fashion raiders get is "greedy"?

 

Sigh, this mentality is irritating. Non-raiders would like content that they are compatible with in order to maximize their character progression. They do not want "free", they want "different". On a personal level, nothing makes me hit that cancel button faster than a glass ceiling and I think that BioWare would do well to create quite a few alternate paths to maximum character progression if they wish to retain the bulk of their subscribers.

[Arnathis]

So, what's your point? You're upset that people who don't camp long spawning world bosses will get magenta crystals? Are you upset that people who don't down nightmare bosses will get new color crystals, speeders, etc? Why?

 

Because it devalues said items.

 

Not everyone should be walking around in the same gear and items regardless of their time invested. If people can just buy everything they want then those items become less valuable or "cool."

 

Not everyone gets a trophy just for showing up, sorry.

[grucho]

Because it devalues said items.

 

Not everyone should be walking around in the same gear and items regardless of their time invested. If people can just buy everything they want then those items become less valuable or "cool."

 

Not everyone gets a trophy just for showing up, sorry.

 

Word "try harder" doesn't exist in current gaming. It's just give me everything now, for no effort whatsoever involved.

[DieAlteHexe]

Because it devalues said items.

 

Not everyone should be walking around in the same gear and items regardless of their time invested. If people can just buy everything they want then those items become less valuable or "cool."

 

Not everyone gets a trophy just for showing up, sorry.

 

Gnah. I don't think anyone is asking for a trophy just for showing up. Pretty sure everyone is willing to earn their stuff be it via raiding, PvPing, questing etc.

 

Hyperbole, bah.