When Will The 'Nurf' Watchman/Annihilator Threads Start?

[Tumri]

The fact you think Marauders are 8v8 Chumps tells me you should stick to PVEing and not pvp anymore.

 

Marauders are close up there to Sorcs in how good they are for groups.

 

Lol. Ok buddy you keep thinking that. They're tanky for about 15 seconds and then they fall over to AoE damage and ranged focus fire. Unlike PTs they can't pull people out of range of their allies. They have to rush into the middle to do anything. They also have sustained damage that requires some time to ramp up so they're not as good as Operatives or Assassins who can at least burst and get out in group situations.

 

They're built for winning 1v1 scenarios. They're terrible in group battles.

[Rheeling]

Has nothing to do with skill. Carnage requires stupidly high uptime to do damage. It's all frontloaded attacks with no real cooldown attack outside Force Scream. This means it's automatically terrible for PvP outside maybe a 0 Sorcerer warzone(lol who am I kidding, that's not going to happen).

 

Ahhh okay. Didn't know that. Strange though that I've seen some talk as to how a good Carnage player is tough to deal with if they're focusing on you. I'll have to look into it eventually and see what tweaks could make it better for pvp, or if it's just a lost cause.

 

Rage Marauders? In PvP? I'm not sure I can agree with the statement that Marauders who know how to play their class are using Rage in PvP.

 

Most Marauders I know playing in the 50 bracket are either Annihilation or Carnage. And while there's a bit of contention about which of those two are better than the other, most agree that Rage is not the better choice for PvP.

 

Oh I completely agree that Rage shouldn't be used for Marauders. That's just what I've seen on my server. Either that, or people playing the Annihi/Carnage trees more horribly than I've ever thought imaginable.

[ImURmaster]

EXACTLY - As soon as anyone takes notice of us, and actually snares, CC's etc, we're done. All the "High skill cap" stuff goes out the window because if you're not a ranged class you are completely screwed by the ridiculous amount of CC in this game.

 

90% of our time in a COMPETENT WZ is spent being focused, chain CC'd, snared, stunned, killed. If anyone thinks that's "OP" i'd like to invite them to try it.

 

Yeap, in a group setting were a group of player are managing your one toon you are about worthless. WAI.

 

In a solo or non-group setting where your not being zerged you...will...win. The class skill sets once mastered make 1v1s and small group fight a lop-sided saberfest. the amount of snares, cc, and immunity as well as damage output make anyone who doesn't have at least one other player to back them up easy valor for a sent/Mara. If your playing one now and haven't figured this out you may want to re-roll to a BH/Trooper.

[Tumri]

Ahhh okay. Didn't know that. Strange though that I've seen some talk as to how a good Carnage player is tough to deal with if they're focusing on you. I'll have to look into it eventually and see what tweaks could make it better for pvp, or if it's just a lost cause.

 

It's definitely viable if you have a buddy that can keep people from kiting you. Powertechs work wonders in that regard. Their slow on main attack + grapple make you both a formidable force. If you don't have someone that will always be helping you with anti-kiting then it's sub-par.

[Rheeling]

Lol. Ok buddy you keep thinking that. They're tanky for about 15 seconds and then they fall over to AoE damage and ranged focus fire. Unlike PTs they can't pull people out of range of their allies. They have to rush into the middle to do anything. They also have sustained damage that requires some time to ramp up so they're not as good as Operatives or Assassins who can at least burst and get out in group situations.

 

They're built for winning 1v1 scenarios. They're terrible in group battles.

 

D:

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/8cvm3LN/bloodthirst

Most amazing group-wide buff in the game.

 

Also, only healing debuff in the game? Amazing to help your team take out healers or high priority targets.

 

Oh, and (albeit only 6% whenever you can get the fury for it) heals for your group as well.

 

Even a speed boost for Huttball if you really want to go there. Marauders are great for groups. You just can't Force Leap into a pack of 4 people and expect to get **** done.

[Chaosmagistrate]

People who say things like "*INSERT CLASS* require a lot of skill to play" or "They're easy to kite" are pretty much playing *INSERT CLASS* and have zero clue how any other class plays.

 

Having played a *INSERT CLASS*, They're not hard to play, they have a crap ton of abilities that let them escape and do lots of damage while healing themselves, There is no magic "Oh it requires so much skill" BS... It's just an oped 1v1 class simple as that.

 

As for kiting, Again... If you're getting kited on a *INSERT CLASS*, you're failing at life. They're not more kitable then a powertech is..

 

Fact is, If you've played this game to Battlemaster, and fought BM *INSERT CLASS* you know how oped they are, and you've probably rolled one yourself and saw how stupid easy it is to play the class.

 

/endsarcasm

 

--As mentioned I play Sent, Sc, and Sage...and I can honestly say, the majority of the people who complain about "OP" are plain bad at PvP. They have zero understandin of terrain and do knockbacks when people are backed against walls, don't move from AoE, don't bother kiting, don't use accuracy debuffs, specced for immobilizes, etc.

 

On my Sc, I have not had many issues other than survivability. I have yet to be kited because most people are stupid. And most people don't even hit me so I can stealth(not combat stealth) after I get my kill. That has nothing to do with the class being OP, it's people being stupid.

 

On my Sage, if I go full Balance, I make melee look stupid and embarass them while I kite them, though I lose some of the burst potential of hybrid and the aoe ccs for gangfests.

 

On my Sentinel, most people ignore me while I put up my DoTs. Is that my problem, that they are so stupid?

 

Most classes are played by people who are too casual to really immerse themselves in learning the nuances of their own character, let alone other classes and specs. The majority of the people refuse to learn and ask questions and adapt their playstyles. In December, I asked for help in the Sentinel forums and got some good responses that helped me figure out what other classes were doing and how to counter. Most people won't bother with that due to pride, or most forums are full of dickwads.

 

And kiting in this game is almost non-existant. For me, kiting harkens back to Vanilla WoW, with Hunters having a huge penalty for being caught, mages being super squishy, and warlocks--well nvm lol. Most people believe kiting to be run away from the melee, while activley still DPSing or healing someone else. For me kiting, means to devote most of my attention on the melee that is attacking me, and embarass him.

 

Just because you haven't run into someone competent enough to truly kite, doesn't mean they don't exist. It's jsut that they are rare. Rarer than even good Sentinels. I only been embarassed by one kiter since EGA. There are hard counters to each class, and yes it can be overcome, but it does require some aptitude, which most people simply don't have or care to obtain.

 

Anyone who actually has played a Sentinel/Marauder to 50 against competent premades knows that the Sent/Mara is not overpowered at all.

[Tumri]

D:

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/8cvm3LN/bloodthirst

Most amazing group-wide buff in the game.

 

Also, only healing debuff in the game? Amazing to help your team take out healers or high priority targets.

 

Oh, and (albeit only 6% whenever you can get the fury for it) heals for your group as well.

 

Even a speed boost for Huttball if you really want to go there. Marauders are great for groups. You just can't Force Leap into a pack of 4 people and expect to get **** done.

 

Bloodthirst is okay but the 5 minute cooldown severely limits the effect it has on a game. Realistically if I were forming a rated WZ group I wouldn't even consider this a plus.

 

Deadly Throw is okay I suppose. Most of the time it's not going to help as much as a stun though. It's more effective to just CC one of the other healers and tunnel the other while he can't really heal at all. It may be the only heal debuff in the game but it's not really as useful as Mortal Strike was in WoW. 20% healing isn't a severe advantage by any means.

 

The heals are pathetic. You have some self heals that are decent but the actual group heal is 6% in total and it doesn't matter. A decently geared healer can heal about 5k with a crit in 1.5 seconds.

 

The speed boost is meh. I would definitely recommend using it in Rage spec but other than that it's only okay for Huttball. Fury is a precious resource and Berserk is basically required to put out any real semi-burst with Anni spec.

 

Overall we may have some utility moves but they aren't all that useful. In a group situation the fact that we can't do any damage without jumping means we either pop CDs and pressure something or sit pretty in the back. We're good in 1v1s but Voidstar with PuGs is a pretty good indication of what rated WZs with true 8v8s(not a bunch of idiots spread out all over the place) will entail: A bunch of ranged DPS with the occasional Assassin/Operative with SWs getting destroyed by focus fire whenever their CDs aren't all up.

[FluxWing]

Omg, there can't be any nerfs, my alt is almost lvl 43.

 

My BM Shadow hit like a wet noodle compared to my the Annihilation Marauders on my server.

 

And as a Shadow you have to spec tank and give up some damage to become durable.

But my Watchman Sentinel can hit harder and be just as durable at the same time, you can't nerf that.

 

And as for the guy who felt useless against a group of healers preventing anything from dying.

Sentinels/Marauders are the only AC with a -20% heal reduction, how useful does all the other ACs feel? What's a good word for beyond useless?

[Rheeling]

Bloodthirst is okay but the 5 minute cooldown severely limits the effect it has on a game. Realistically if I were forming a rated WZ group I wouldn't even consider this a plus.

 

Deadly Throw is okay I suppose. Most of the time it's not going to help as much as a stun though. It's more effective to just CC one of the other healers and tunnel the other while he can't really heal at all. It may be the only heal debuff in the game but it's not really as useful as Mortal Strike was in WoW. 20% healing isn't a severe advantage by any means.

 

The heals are pathetic. You have some self heals that are decent but the actual group heal is 6% in total and it doesn't matter. A decently geared healer can heal about 5k with a crit in 1.5 seconds.

 

The speed boost is meh. I would definitely recommend using it in Rage spec but other than that it's only okay for Huttball. Fury is a precious resource and Berserk is basically required to put out any real semi-burst with Anni spec.

 

Overall we may have some utility moves but they aren't all that useful. In a group situation the fact that we can't do any damage without jumping means we either pop CDs and pressure something or sit pretty in the back. We're good in 1v1s but Voidstar with PuGs is a pretty good indication of what rated WZs with true 8v8s(not a bunch of idiots spread out all over the place) will entail: A bunch of ranged DPS with the occasional Assassin/Operative with SWs getting destroyed by focus fire whenever their CDs aren't all up.

 

The 5 minute CD does hurt. But, if you pop your Frenzy to give 30 stacks, then Blood Thirst as soon as a round of Voidstar starts, it would help a ton in wiping enough players to plant quickly. It has it's uses, it's just not spamable. Heck, even super useful if you're trying to either hold the Huttball for a tie win or if you're trying to kill their carrier.

 

I'll give you the pathetic heals though lol. Only really useful on ourselves and the dot crits for semi-burst.

 

But, you have to look at the big picture for the healing debuff. 20% on top of the 30% trauma debuff. A healer only healing for 50% can't keep that gig up for long

[Tumri]

The 5 minute CD does hurt. But, if you pop your Frenzy to give 30 stacks, then Blood Thirst as soon as a round of Voidstar starts, it would help a ton in wiping enough players to plant quickly. It has it's uses, it's just not spamable. Heck, even super useful if you're trying to either hold the Huttball for a tie win or if you're trying to kill their carrier.

 

I'll give you the pathetic heals though lol. Only really useful on ourselves and the dot crits for semi-burst.

 

But, you have to look at the big picture for the healing debuff. 20% on top of the 30% trauma debuff. A healer only healing for 50% can't keep that gig up for long

 

Like I said. There are uses but BT is so limited that it's basically a non-factor in large PvP situations. If Arenas get released it'll be great though since typically smaller confrontations revolve around burst.

 

The healing debuff is alright. I didn't say it was bad. I was just saying that it's a mediocre reason for us to exist in group v group combat. It's also the ONLY thing we truly bring that is reliably useful. Our speed boost is a joke in comparison to bringing an extra Sorcerer because of all the tricks they can do with jump-sprinting. It's also not available when you need it unless you hold your fury(which is bad). That's why I'm saying take away our great 1v1 ability and make us better in group PvP. I want something that makes us viable for real PvP and not just hunting down loners on the sides.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Tumri

[Mournblood]

And as for the guy who felt useless against a group of healers preventing anything from dying.

Sentinels/Marauders are the only AC with a -20% heal reduction, how useful does all the other ACs feel? What's a good word for beyond useless?

 

Let me just dispell this myth right now, while a ranged "mortal strike" (Deadly Throw: 20% heal debuff for 15 secs) sounds really awesome, it's not. Most healers (Sages/Sorcs in particular) are getting crit heals that far exceed any pressure this ability might place on them. Don't get me wrong, having it is better than not having it, but it's a far better use of resources to stun the healer than to apply a healing debuff that most of them don't even bat an eyelash at. I typically use Deadly Throw situationally, except in Huttball where I constantly use it on the enemy ball carrier. But it's a constant misconception by players who don't play Marauders who think that Deadly Throw is like "mortal strike" from WoW or like "lingering wounds" from Rift (both of those are 50% heal debuffs). It's not.

 

 

Has nothing to do with skill. Carnage requires stupidly high uptime to do damage. It's all frontloaded attacks with no real cooldown attack outside Force Scream. This means it's automatically terrible for PvP outside maybe a 0 Sorcerer warzone(lol who am I kidding, that's not going to happen).

 

As for the comment that Carnage is not viable in PvP, I strongly disagree. Annihilation requires more face time with your opponent to get DoTs (bleeds) applied, and Rage must be spent on Beserk whenever it's up. My experience in group WZ PvP is that I can't always get on my target either due to CC, snares, knockbacks, or them sprinting away on me, etc. With Carnage, I'm less reliant on getting on my target because I have more ranged abilities at my disposal and I can use my Rage for other abilities like Predation and Bloodthirst, which are much more beneficial to my team than Beserk is. I think Annihilation definitely does much better damage when you're on your opponent, not to mention it's got some nice survival benefits such as the self-heals from your bleeds, but you can't always count on that. In a team setting, I'm always going to go with the choice that benefits my team the most, not just what benefits me the most.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Mournblood

[Zunayson]

... Watchman OP? And here I was starting to think I was just doing decent with the class.

 

 

._. It seems like all the elemental/internal damagers are OP

 

Solution? All damage mitigated/ not mitigated by armor. Preferably the former.

[madro]

I must of missed the original posters context for such claims?

[EasymodeX]

Carnage's weakness in PvP is not strictly about "uptime". It's about the need for perfect 4.5 second uptime during the Gore window to do "any real damage at all ever".

 

Carnage also relies on RNG crits more than the other specs. Between the significantly lower STR values in PvP, slightly lower Crit Rating, and intermittent IA crit buff, its actual damage capability is also undermined.

 

Too many eggs in too small a basket. Carnage's only real DPS capability is just so FRAGILE in PvP. Any casual CC or interference will kill Carnage's damage for 15 seconds. And the Gore animation is so loud and flashy that the enemy can't miss it.

[ImURmaster]

Oops! Edited February 22, 2012 by ImURmaster

[Mournblood]

Carnage's weakness in PvP is not strictly about "uptime". It's about the need for perfect 4.5 second uptime during the Gore window to do "any real damage at all ever".

 

Carnage also relies on RNG crits more than the other specs. Between the significantly lower STR values in PvP, slightly lower Crit Rating, and intermittent IA crit buff, its actual damage capability is also undermined.

 

Too many eggs in too small a basket. Carnage's only real DPS capability is just so FRAGILE in PvP. Any casual CC or interference will kill Carnage's damage for 15 seconds. And the Gore animation is so loud and flashy that the enemy can't miss it.

 

Yes, it can have some inconsistent damage output at times, but that's a mechanics/design issue that will eventually be addressed and improved. As for players CCing you during Gore, you'd be surprised how many players out there have absolutely no idea what Gore does, or what the animation looks like, or how much it hurts us to be CC'd when we use it. Just guessing, I'd have to put that figure somewhere around 99% of the players in WZs. As for Annihilation, I think it's an inevitability that Bioware will nerf internal/elemental damage (e.g. having it mitigated by armor) across the board. I do not want to be playing that spec when it happens. And as I stated earlier, Predation and Bloodthirst are far better group buffs for my team than Beserk.

[Nastynas]

Don't nerf me bro.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Yes, it can have some inconsistent damage output at times, but that's a mechanics/design issue that will eventually be addressed and improved. As for players CCing you during Gore, you'd be surprised how many players out there have absolutely no idea what Gore does, or what the animation looks like, or how much it hurts us to be CC'd when we use it. Just guessing, I'd have to put that figure somewhere around 99% of the players in WZs. As for Annihilation, I think it's an inevitability that Bioware will nerf internal/elemental damage (e.g. having it mitigated by armor) across the board. I do not want to be playing that spec when it happens. And as I stated earlier, Predation and Bloodthirst are far better group buffs for my team than Beserk.

 

Combat was the spec that interested me the most when I picked my AC, and it was exactly the way I wanted to play, but due to the focus-starvation and being CC'd half the time when PS was up, I got fed up with it. If they give it some tweaks to bring it in line with Watchman, I won't hesitate to give up the 6s nterrupt and 0m leap and switch back to Combat.

[Keldaur]

As for the comment that Carnage is not viable in PvP, I strongly disagree. Annihilation requires more face time with your opponent to get DoTs (bleeds) applied, and Rage must be spent on Beserk whenever it's up. My experience in group WZ PvP is that I can't always get on my target either due to CC, snares, knockbacks, or them sprinting away on me, etc. With Carnage, I'm less reliant on getting on my target because I have more ranged abilities at my disposal and I can use my Rage for other abilities like Predation and Bloodthirst, which are much more beneficial to my team than Beserk is. I think Annihilation definitely does much better damage when you're on your opponent, not to mention it's got some nice survival benefits such as the self-heals from your bleeds, but you can't always count on that. In a team setting, I'm always going to go with the choice that benefits my team the most, not just what benefits me the most.

 

 

You are wrong. Annhilation does more burst damage on just 3 globals than carnage 3 globals with the 100% armor pen up, and you don't need to lose that gcd, and one of your skills is off gcd. You may disagree, but numbers prove you are wrong.

 

For example, the common opener with some rage is :

 

Charge - Snare + Overload saber- +6focus skill - Cauterize - Merciless Slash

 

If you got zen/berserk, you can use it before inbetween cauterize and merciless slash to get overload saber x3 insta crit, some crits from cauterize, and 2 assured crits for overload saber x3 later on. There's the real burst, and that burst is way higher than anything you can come with carnage, and you can do it pretty often withouth requiring you to depend on a one trick pony skill/proc. Hell, if you are lucky and merciless slash crits on a sorc it's 4k + 1,5k.

 

Also, having 12sec cd on charge and being able to use it point blank is way better than a 15% run speed.

 

And you are talking about centering/fury. Watchman/Annhi are the specs who build up faster, so again you are wrong. About "ranged tools", anything 10m isn't ranged, hell even focus have more "ranged tools" as you speak, and a better burst.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Keldaur

[KilllerRock]

Sents/Maras are beast 1vs1. But in group you do truly feel useless sometimes when you come across good opponents.

 

I had a civil war match against some imps that knockback/rooted me, stuned me, snared me, but no one actually attacked me. They killed my healers and range dps while i spent 20 seconds attacking an enemy and 50 seconds being CC'd and kited.

 

Like i said though, was a good team, anytime i touched their healer i got hit with a snare/root/stun. But did not feel so OP being shut down out of the fight for so long.

Edited February 22, 2012 by KilllerRock

[LordbishopX]

Sents/Maras are beast 1vs1. But in group you do truly feel useless sometimes when you come across good opponents.

 

I had a civil war match against some imps that knockback/rooted me, stuned me, snared me, but no one actually attacked me. They killed my healers and range dps while i spent 20 seconds attacking an enemy and 50 seconds being CC'd and kited.

 

Like i said though, was a good team, anytime i touched their healer i got hit with a snare/root/stun. But did not feel so OP being shut down out of the fight for so long.

 

Every class has to have some form of weakness the key is finding it an exploiting the hell out of it as possible ur job is to counter. Give a class everything just = God mode all classes have strength and weaknesses that can be exploited.

[Tumri]

Give a class everything just = God mode

 

Hybrid CC-Heavy Spec Sorcerers.

[hadoken]

Hybrid CC-Heavy Spec Sorcerers.

 

Carolina Parakeet, which is incidentally countered by the topic of this thread

Edited February 22, 2012 by hadoken

[slowantics]

take away watchman/annihilator and youll pretty much take away the only good class sent/maras have. combat/carnage is close to useless compared to the other two trees.

[Doomsaga]

This

I mean, its not like there isnt a light tank type char in every single mmo, they deal insane damage and its usually fine

 

But why the hell should they have all these defensive cooldown too? You want damage? You be squishy then

 

But considering its TOTALLY HARD to play a Sent/Mar its balanced then /lol

 

we have 2 defensive cds(which doesnt really make up for the lack of heavy armor)and the defensive cds we have guardian also gets but have heavy armor. How does that equal 50 is beyond me.yes we have a 12sec charge but if u knockback and root for 12secs we cant do **** meanwhile ur melting our face the vanish only last 4 second meanwhile sorc could just dash to us when it wares off and he still has stun at his disposal. not saying i cant win just sayin if others played they class at a skill lvl required to play sentinel then that wouldnt be QQing. point being a good sentinel is gonna be good at pvp in general no matter what class he plays because of how hard sentinel is. Play the class before you comment on it.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Doomsaga