universeman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Also, with all due respect, there's really absolutely no reason to assume it would go to "need" for everything. It's pretty obvious it wouldn't. This type of argument is used constantly to stop progress out in the real world. Not saying that's what you're trying to do, just saying the assertion's really not accurate. I know it won't be true of me. With the way companions are (we have 5 of them, right?)...you sure it wouldn't? Perhaps, it should. Because, at that point, we'll have many more people clicking NEED than GREED...so, it would be just as good (better, even) to revert back to a GREED/PASS system only. The bottom line is this: Take away the ambiguity of the system so nobody can "ninja" (whatever you want to call it) anything and all would be good. There's no misconception as to how to use the buttons and everyone wins (actually some win more than others - but it evens out) Edited February 23, 2012 by universeman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
universeman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Then I adjust how I play to fit their expectations. I give them the freedom to roll on everything. If they decide to do so, then they are telling me that I have to do so as well if I want a shot at getting any loot. Too late, you already lost a great piece of EQ! On to the next group who may (or may not) play that way as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atma Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I always ask if anyone needs the item first, if no one does I'll roll need and say it's for my companion. I have no problems with anyone else who does it this way. If someone takes an item for their comp over a player who needs it however, that's not cool. Edited February 23, 2012 by Atma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Too late, you already lost a great piece of EQ! On to the next group who may (or may not) play that way as well... You do realize you can tell if the other three players are needing on everything well before hitting anything that drops anything really good, right? Oh wait, you just wanted to make some claim without any facts to back you up in order to win some argument on the Internet. With the way companions are (we have 5 of them, right?)...you sure it wouldn't? Perhaps, it should. Because, at that point, we'll have many more people clicking NEED than GREED...so, it would be just as good (better, even) to revert back to a GREED/PASS system only. The bottom line is this: Take away the ambiguity of the system so nobody can "ninja" (whatever you want to call it) anything and all would be good. There's no misconception as to how to use the buttons and everyone wins (actually some win more than others - but it evens out) You cannot ninja anything when using the NBG system. It's not possible. When you figure out what a ninja is and where it came from, you will understand what I just said. Hint: it dates back to when there was no NBG system. Edited February 23, 2012 by terminova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 With the way companions are (we have 5 of them, right?)...you sure it wouldn't?Yes. Most people only have a subset of the armor types that they can use: consular are heavy aim, medium cunning and light willpower. There's no str gear at all. Troopers are all heavy aim.smugglers don't have a force user, and only a heavy str user (no lightsabers)jedi knights are the closest to being able to use all; a sentinel can actually use all types of armor (heavy aim, medium cunning heavy str, medium str, light willpower). so on the republic side it's 1/4 can use everything and 1/4 only uses aim. so only jedi knights would potentially be rolling on everything. Everyone else would be greeding at least some of the time, assuming that they change at all. Because, at that point, we'll have many more people clicking NEED than GREED...speculation; personally I find it likely that people will mostly continue to roll the same. If you are going to roll need on everything... well... maybe there's a reason you're thinking that everyone will become more greedy and I'm not, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 That said, In EQ2, when you win an item, you have a set amount of time to give it away before it's permanently bound to you. same thing in wow; I don't know if they added that to rift or not... but that cuts down on so many support tickets, I just don't understand why it's not making it into new games that are slavishly following in the "everthing must be bound" model. So, you'll be happy to group with 3 other players who roll NEED on every item that pops up?Yes. I've said that several times in the past. Then why not just make it a NEED/PASS system Well, since I primarily roll greed, I like the fact that I can basically pass but make sure that stuff doesn't get left on corpses when noone really wants it. but I'm fine with switching to roll/pass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledinElysium Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Then I adjust how I play to fit their expectations. I give them the freedom to roll on everything. If they decide to do so, then they are telling me that I have to do so as well if I want a shot at getting any loot. The problem you think exists doesn't exist in the scenario you just described. Terrible, terrible argument...just awful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itekazzawrrlic Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 How can you ninja something you're entitled to roll on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledinElysium Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You cannot ninja anything when using the NBG system. It's not possible. When you figure out what a ninja is and where it came from, you will understand what I just said. Hint: it dates back to when there was no NBG system. Maybe instead of turning your dick-switch on, you can just adjust to the fact that he's using "ninja" to mean something slightly different. His post even admits that he knows the term is not being used correctly. The main contention of the people you're arguing with is that (1) there should be a difference between rolling for loot that you're going to equip immediately and one or more other categories of loot; and (2) the game should prevent people from selecting Need if they don't actually need the item, however you want to define "need." To various other posters, how would removing the NBG system improve anything? It may be true that the system creates some problems in particular situations, but how is it better to assign loot randomly? Then people don't get what they want most of the time. At least with NBG, nobody is getting items they don't want, and that necessarily means some people are getting loot they do want every time. All they have to do is adjust for companions and do their best to make it fair. I would like to point out that, while companions are a unique issue in the genre (because they can freely equip items that have been bound to your character), a debate very similar to this already raged years ago in WoW, when people started Needing the better BoE drops for their alts. That issue is, I speculate, an important part of the reason there are so few quality BoE items in these games anymore. Just like with the problem of people selling the best loot (the other consideration that led to the "bound" mechanic), the developers of these games seem to agree that the things your character has should have been achieved by your character. Unfortunately, that line of thinking doesn't present an obvious answer for companions. I personally think companion loot should rank below character loot, but I can readily understand those who think there should be no difference. It seems like this argument might be split along some classic party lines. The power gamers who enjoy the parts of the game that allow them to combine loot to make the most powerful and effective character possible are probably going to think Needing for companions is fine, because your companion's effectiveness is a big part of your own general effectiveness in the game. There is of course a subcamp of power gamers who might disagree because companions can't be used in warzones or raids, but I'm not sure. The casual gamers, on the other hand, enjoy the story more, and are more likely to express themselves in their characters. These people (such as myself) feel like the player's character is unique and therefore more deserving of high quality loot than the companion which is the same for everyone. If everyone is rolling Need because they want to equip the item on their characters, that's fair because everyone has an equal stake in the roll. If one person Needs to give to a companion, it is unfair because that person has robbed the others of a chance to improve their unique ego-expression characters. That's sort of a rudimentary (read: crappy) psychoanalysis of the situation. but that's how I see it. I've run out of thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itekazzawrrlic Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Maybe instead of turning your dick-switch on, you can just adjust to the fact that he's using "ninja" to mean something slightly different. His post even admits that he knows the term is not being used correctly. The main contention of the people you're arguing with is that (1) there should be a difference between rolling for loot that you're going to equip immediately and one or more other categories of loot; and (2) the game should prevent people from selecting Need if they don't actually need the item, however you want to define "need." To various other posters, how would removing the NBG system improve anything? It may be true that the system creates some problems in particular situations, but how is it better to assign loot randomly? Then people don't get what they want most of the time. At least with NBG, nobody is getting items they don't want, and that necessarily means some people are getting loot they do want every time. All they have to do is adjust for companions and do their best to make it fair. I would like to point out that, while companions are a unique issue in the genre (because they can freely equip items that have been bound to your character), a debate very similar to this already raged years ago in WoW, when people started Needing the better BoE drops for their alts. That issue is, I speculate, an important part of the reason there are so few quality BoE items in these games anymore. Just like with the problem of people selling the best loot (the other consideration that led to the "bound" mechanic), the developers of these games seem to agree that the things your character has should have been achieved by your character. Unfortunately, that line of thinking doesn't present an obvious answer for companions. I personally think companion loot should rank below character loot, but I can readily understand those who think there should be no difference. It seems like this argument might be split along some classic party lines. The power gamers who enjoy the parts of the game that allow them to combine loot to make the most powerful and effective character possible are probably going to think Needing for companions is fine, because your companion's effectiveness is a big part of your own general effectiveness in the game. There is of course a subcamp of power gamers who might disagree because companions can't be used in warzones or raids, but I'm not sure. The casual gamers, on the other hand, enjoy the story more, and are more likely to express themselves in their characters. These people (such as myself) feel like the player's character is unique and therefore more deserving of high quality loot than the companion which is the same for everyone. If everyone is rolling Need because they want to equip the item on their characters, that's fair because everyone has an equal stake in the roll. If one person Needs to give to a companion, it is unfair because that person has robbed the others of a chance to improve their unique ego-expression characters. That's sort of a rudimentary (read: crappy) psychoanalysis of the situation. but that's how I see it. I've run out of thoughts. Fail post is fail. Edited February 23, 2012 by itekazzawrrlic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vecke Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 To various other posters, how would removing the NBG system improve anything? It may be true that the system creates some problems in particular situations, but how is it better to assign loot randomly? Then people don't get what they want most of the time. At least with NBG, nobody is getting items they don't want, and that necessarily means some people are getting loot they do want every time. All they have to do is adjust for companions and do their best to make it fair. . Even with dev involvement (as this post evidences) NBG is still primarily a community driven practice. Now, I'm just speaking from my own admittedly anecdotal experience, but during my time in EQ and EQ2, before NBG was a dev implemented construct, the drama wasn't nearly as intense because people didn't have any rationalization for how things should be. If you won, you could give it to the person that needed it. If not, they might think you're a jerk, but that was about it. It was still community driven and there was much less drama. And nobody could trick another person into giving up a piece. Everybody got a fair roll and that was it. What happened afterward just depended on the kindness of the winner. Nobody felt betrayed and nobody felt like something was "stolen" from them. You won it and it was yours. Most people then gave it to someone that asked (or sold it to them), but it wasn't an expectation. Again, I'm not saying that's how it was. I'm just saying it's how it was for me. I never saw this kind of drama before NBG was dev-implemented. Then, it was truly just about courtesy. Now, there's an entitlement to it because of the "need" button, which causes a lot more drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledinElysium Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Fail post is fail. Hehe, I feel like a LoL. I almost want to take a screenshot of my post and caption it with your reply. More seriously though, I was only half-attentive when I wrote the post--hence the lazy signoff. Are there particular things I said that are incorrect or irrelevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vecke Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Hehe, I feel like a LoL. I almost want to take a screenshot of my post and caption it with your reply. More seriously though, I was only half-attentive when I wrote the post--hence the lazy signoff. Are there particular things I said that are incorrect or irrelevant? No, your point was perfectly fine. Just keep in mind, I'm probably the most long-winded person on this thread, so you might not want to put too much into my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itekazzawrrlic Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Hehe, I feel like a LoL. I almost want to take a screenshot of my post and caption it with your reply. More seriously though, I was only half-attentive when I wrote the post--hence the lazy signoff. Are there particular things I said that are incorrect or irrelevant? The fact that you feel that someone rolling however they like on something they worked at just as much as you and are entitled to is somehow stealing from someone. Unless im not getting you correct. I failed your post for a few reasons, not being sure if you're pro or con was the main thing..... That and the length..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredcat Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 OMG you n00bs are still crying about this? In a month or two of play your companion will have all your hand me down centurian pvp gear, columi gear, etc. seriously lighten up. Once in awhile some 12 year old is gonna do this to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzrknight Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 haha welcome to star wars. The funniest part is how people complain about the dungeon finder because of this behavior , fact , it is already happening in game and people dont give a damm , simple cause it is for their companion uhhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa_Shadow Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) The way you solve this issue is to just need on everything like every other dbag. 1. get into pug group or any group for that matter - major guild groups are better! 2. need on all loot drops 3. Profit! even if you don't think its right, do it anyway, that way in a month all the people that were rolling need on things from before will be in here crying about how everyone is copying what they are doing. Problem? Edited February 23, 2012 by Papa_Shadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itekazzawrrlic Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 The way you solve this issue is to just need on everything like every other dbag. 1. get into pug group or any group for that matter - major guild groups are better! 2. need on all loot drops 3. Profit! even if you don't think its right, do it anyway, that way in a month all the people that were rolling need on things from before will be in here crying about how everyone is copying what they are doing. Problem? Actually the people rolling need will not say anything because to them, the world will still be spinning on it's axis. If you think it would make a difference... go ahead... start doing it. No skin off my back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa_Shadow Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually the people rolling need will not say anything because to them, the world will still be spinning on it's axis. If you think it would make a difference... go ahead... start doing it. No skin off my back. You sir are obviously not to quick on the uptake, it's called a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itekazzawrrlic Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You sir are obviously not to quick on the uptake, it's called a joke. IF it was a joke, it wasn't a very good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa_Shadow Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 IF it was a joke, it wasn't a very good one. Why? because it doesn't fit into what *your* guidelines of good humor are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itekazzawrrlic Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Why? because it doesn't fit into what *your* guidelines of good humor are? No, because it wasn't funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa_Shadow Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 No, because it wasn't funny. Again that's just your opinion, surely you know the saying about opinions? Or should I quote it here? =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvus Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'm a fair, even generous roller. I frequently pass on items I could roll for that are class because I either have better or comparable. Sadly, what goes around doesn't come around. Getting tired of seeing an item come up not my class, I pass right away, then there's some chat, and then everyone else says it's okay if the guy who asked rolls need for his companion. It's very poor taste. If you think your companion is as important to you as your PC, try taking Andronikos or Mako into Huttball and get back to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vecke Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'm a fair, even generous roller. I frequently pass on items I could roll for that are class because I either have better or comparable. Sadly, what goes around doesn't come around. Getting tired of seeing an item come up not my class, I pass right away, then there's some chat, and then everyone else says it's okay if the guy who asked rolls need for his companion. It's very poor taste. If you think your companion is as important to you as your PC, try taking Andronikos or Mako into Huttball and get back to me. To be fair, if the person asked the group first, and the group said yeah, I don't see how they did anything wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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