People who ninja for their companions

[xhaiquan]

On Tarris group of 16 level 32-37 take down ancient one world boss.

 

3 agents in group. A nice purple protype drops clearly meant for agents. All roll need.

 

A sith assasin also rolls need and wins, saying he needed it for his companion.

 

 

***

[Sireene]

Hey there!

 

Since the previous thread reached over 1,000 posts we've gone ahead and restarted the discussion in this new thread.

 

Damion Schubert posted this response in the thread Do not roll "Need" for companion gear. on 02-13-2012.

 

Need vs. greed isn't as simple in our game because of companions, as well as Orange Gear and mod extraction.

 

We will probably limit the 'need' button to only people who match the primary class the gear is meant for, and add a new button in between need and greed for players to choose if they intend the gear for these purposes - this will allow CC users to roll against each other without competing with the guy who wants to sell the gear for credits.

 

I don't have a timeline on this for you guys right now, though - certainly not in the next major patch. In the meantime, I strongly recommend that players who care clearly decide the expected need/greed role behaviors ('no companion need rolling or you're out!') when a group is initially formed. In the meantime, I'll work on getting this feature in the works.

 

To catch up on everything that has been discussed so far, please feel free to check out the previous thread here:

 

People who ninja for their companions

 

Thanks!

Edited February 27, 2012 by LexiCazam
Included Damion's post

[Magnijung]

The main question...

 

1) Is companion part of you?

 

2) Even if your companion is part of you but did not contribute to the group, should companions have same priority is the the main avatars?

 

3) If companions have same priority as players, in theory everyone should roll need on everything? Thus what is the point of greed button?

[cipher_nemo]

Putting this request back into the thread since we went over 1,000 posts last thread...

 

I'd love to see the day when we get drops in end-game group content where it's something like "Requires Mako". Then every Bounty Hunter rolls need on it. "Requires Lt. Iresso", then every Consular rolls need on it.

[Qoaa]

that is why i dont discuss anytime loot drops i click need if i want it and that's that, we dont have time in a flashpoint or operation to discuss each and every loot drop

 

 

and people that think companions arent great solo, mine is geared out in rakata, columi and a tionese piece and he's even a healer and soloed 2 strongs without losing health was insane.

 

some of the top geared companion vids on youtube are crazy sick what you can gear your companions up to do. companions get seriously insane in top gear.

 

there's no way in heck im gonna listen to some holier than thou 'political correct' wannabe shout morals and ethics at me, it's my popup and it dont come with a EULA or TOS, so I roll need for me and companions.

 

course my guild all do the same, but we've kicked idiots from pickup groups out of the group when they start trying to preach about loot rules. Id much rather hope for good random's than listen to some autistic rant about loot rules that do not exist except in his own head.

[Kaskava]

If I'm in a run (be if a FP/Op/or WB), and someone needs something I know they can't use, and doesn't admit that it was an accident, I will kick them. I will then proceed to tell everyone I can about this person, and what they did.

 

Now, if they ask, and no one minds, whatever. They can have it. When I'm doing these group activities, I'm there to gear players, not pets. Your companion wasn't there, they did not participate, they did not help. Whether your Lt. Pierce is still in level ~30 gear or not, is not mine, nor is it my groups, concern. They're there for solo, and 2/3 man stuff. Gear them out on your own time, with your own resources.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Kaskava

[Darkulous]

Do you play with your companion 100% of the time like your main character? NO.

 

So nobody should roll need for a character that isn't out 100% of the time against a character that is. It's that simple.

[Kucerakov]

that is why i dont discuss anytime loot drops i click need if i want it and that's that, we dont have time in a flashpoint or operation to discuss each and every loot drop

 

 

and people that think companions arent great solo, mine is geared out in rakata, columi and a tionese piece and he's even a healer and soloed 2 strongs without losing health was insane.

 

some of the top geared companion vids on youtube are crazy sick what you can gear your companions up to do. companions get seriously insane in top gear.

 

there's no way in heck im gonna listen to some holier than thou 'political correct' wannabe shout morals and ethics at me, it's my popup and it dont come with a EULA or TOS, so I roll need for me and companions.

 

course my guild all do the same, but we've kicked idiots from pickup groups out of the group when they start trying to preach about loot rules. Id much rather hope for good random's than listen to some autistic rant about loot rules that do not exist except in his own head.

 

Yeeeees. LFD will destroy the community. That's it.

[Kourage]

I just got 2 pieces of loot for Mako in HM BT. Everyone else rolled greed and I asked If i could need for Mako. They said yea.

 

When the second one dropped, 2 other BHs said they could also use for Mako, but they already rolled greed for some strange reason. So I rolled Greed too and won it anyway. So I talked to them and convinced them it's better to ask and roll need instead of competing with a greed roll against people who will just vendor it for a couple thousand credits, which is really nothing.

[Bazouk]

your definition of need may not be the same as someone else's definition of need. and until bioware says what their definition of need is by changing the system, i don't see how it can be called ninja.

 

you need the gear so you can wear it so you can have an easier time doing the things in the game you like to do.

 

someone else needs the gear so their companion can wear it so they can have an easier time doing the things in the game they like to do.

 

how is it any different?

 

it isn't.

 

people lose a roll and look for any excuse to throw a temper tantrum. it's sad really.

[Vecke]

your definition of need may not be the same as someone else's definition of need. and until bioware says what their definition of need is by changing the system, i don't see how it can be called ninja.

 

you need the gear so you can wear it so you can have an easier time doing the things in the game you like to do.

 

someone else needs the gear so their companion can wear it so they can have an easier time doing the things in the game they like to do.

 

how is it any different?

 

it isn't.

 

people lose a roll and look for any excuse to throw a temper tantrum. it's sad really.

 

Leaving out the people that are just arguing against NBG in general (because that's a different debate), the real crux of this one is whether or not a companion is worth rolling need for.

 

Since the concept of NBG came into MMOs, it has been pretty much universally accepted that you only roll need for the Character that is playing. You can't roll for a friend, and you can't roll for an alt. You only roll for the character that is in the group at the time.

 

In every other MMO I've ever played, if you ask "when is it appropriate to roll need?" that's the answer you'll get. They may bicker on the details (alt spec, etc), but it's generally accepted that you can only roll need for the character that participated in the kill.

 

The debate comes because in TOR companions are more integrated into the development of the character than other MMOs, all the way to the point that they can wear armor, and more specifically, they can wear armor that is bound to your character.

 

There are some folks that say the companion is every bit as much their character as the character they created. Others say that's absurd.

 

For me personally, I think if people that adhere to standard NBG rules (and yes, there ARE rules that are community driven yet are universally accepted in the community) it works itself out. If your companion literally filled a role in the group, you can roll need for him. For example, if your group consisted of you and your companion and another player and his/her companion, then they should get a roll. If the companion was dismissed, he shouldn't.

 

Again, that's assuming you're following traditional NBG practices in MMOs. If you just believe you should roll need whenever you personally define it as need, that's not following traditional NBG practices. Not saying you're right or you're wrong, just saying you aren't adhering to "conventional wisdom" on this matter.

[Bazouk]

Leaving out the people that are just arguing against NBG in general (because that's a different debate), the real crux of this one is whether or not a companion is worth rolling need for.

 

Since the concept of NBG came into MMOs, it has been pretty much universally accepted that you only roll need for the Character that is playing. You can't roll for a friend, and you can't roll for an alt. You only roll for the character that is in the group at the time.

 

In every other MMO I've ever played, if you ask "when is it appropriate to roll need?" that's the answer you'll get. They may bicker on the details (alt spec, etc), but it's generally accepted that you can only roll need for the character that participated in the kill.

 

The debate comes because in TOR companions are more integrated into the development of the character than other MMOs, all the way to the point that they can wear armor, and more specifically, they can wear armor that is bound to your character.

 

There are some folks that say the companion is every bit as much their character as the character they created. Others say that's absurd.

 

For me personally, I think if people that adhere to standard NBG rules (and yes, there ARE rules that are community driven yet are universally accepted in the community) it works itself out. If your companion literally filled a role in the group, you can roll need for him. For example, if your group consisted of you and your companion and another player and his/her companion, then they should get a roll. If the companion was dismissed, he shouldn't.

 

Again, that's assuming you're following traditional NBG practices in MMOs. If you just believe you should roll need whenever you personally define it as need, that's not following traditional NBG practices. Not saying you're right or you're wrong, just saying you aren't adhering to "conventional wisdom" on this matter.

 

long winded way of stating your definition of need. also, you don't speak for the universe, and these "universally accepted rules" do not apply universally. they apply in your world from your experiences. others have different views and different experiences. don't try to speak for everyone. it makes you look bad.

 

i'm not advocating one way or the other btw. i'm simply stating we do not have a definition of need as determined by the overseers of this game. right now, it's possible to roll need in what i suppose a lot of people believe is too many situations. i don't personally feel that way but i don't really care and my opinion doesn't matter anyway.

 

WoW solved this problem a couple of years ago. it isn't rocket science.

[Vecke]

long winded way of stating your definition of need. also, you don't speak for the universe, and these "universally accepted rules" do not apply universally. they apply in your world from your experiences. others have different views and different experiences. don't try to speak for everyone. it makes you look bad.

 

i'm not advocating one way or the other btw. i'm simply stating we do not have a definition of need as determined by the overseers of this game. right now, it's possible to roll need in what i suppose a lot of people believe is too many situations. i don't personally feel that way but i don't really care and my opinion doesn't matter anyway.

 

WoW solved this problem a couple of years ago. it isn't rocket science.

 

Respectfully, you're mistaken if you think this is how I see it. I hate NBG in general. I thought loot was much better when nothing was bound, everyone rolled for the item, and if you need it, you just send a tell to the winner and ask if you can have it.

 

And when I say "universally accepted" I'm saying that was the generally accepted definition in every MMO I've played. I didn't play WoW, but in EQ2, LOTRO, DDO, DCUO, CoX, and AoC, that was the etiquette.

 

Tell you what... you think I'm just imposing my view? If I go to, say, 5 other game forums and ask the following question: "I'm just curious... when is it appropriate to roll Need on loot?", what ratio of answers would it take for you to accept that this is the generally accepted etiquette? 10 to 1? Would that be enough?

 

It's not my view. Like I said, I can't stand NBG. It just makes a cluttered mess of loot rolls. I'm just speaking to what I've experienced in the last several years of gaming across multiple MMOs.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Vecke

[Bazouk]

I'm just speaking to what I've experienced in the last several years of gaming across multiple MMOs.

 

 

...

 

so, yeah.

[Vecke]

...

 

so, yeah.

 

I don't understand your point. I mean that sincerely. My original post was that it's generally accepted among MMO players that this is the etiquette for loot rolls. I even offered to show this is the case by asking it in other gaming forums.

 

I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying to pretend this isn't a community driven rule that is generally accepted is disingenuous. I'm not just saying a slight majority accepts this etiquette. I'm saying the overwhelming majority accepts it.

 

Is it community driven? Yes. Is it a hard rule from the devs? No.

 

But it is the conventional wisdom in the MMO community, and has been for years. If you disagree with the conventional wisdom, that's fine. But to suggest it doesn't exist is either incorrect or dishonest. I don't presume to know which.

 

Again, I personally do not like this generally accepted, community driven rule. But I don't pretend like it doesn't exist just because I disagree with it.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Vecke

[universeman]

there's no way in heck im gonna listen to some holier than thou 'political correct' wannabe shout morals and ethics at me, it's my popup and it dont come with a EULA or TOS, so I roll need for me and companions.

 

Boy, you sure are a winner.

[venomlash]

I was running Cademimu as a Trooper, and a Smuggler rolled "Need" on a nice pair of heavy pants. I was a bit annoyed by this because he didn't have the decency to ask "Hey, can I 'need' this for Corso?" or whatever his reasoning was.

That's the crux of the biscuit, if you ask me. If you want it just so you can sell it, you roll "greed". If you want it because you can equip it and it is better than your current gear, you roll "need". Otherwise, it's a grey area. If you want it for your companion, or you like the appearance of an orange item and want to mod it up, what do you do? You ask your group if it's okay for you to roll "need" on it, and if none of them need it too badly they should be okay with it. That's how my guild and most people I run into handle things, and it works pretty well.

[terminova]

Do you play with your companion 100% of the time like your main character? NO.

 

So nobody should roll need for a character that isn't out 100% of the time against a character that is. It's that simple.

 

I use my companions 100% of the time when the game allows me to do so. The number of times my companion has saved me is beyond count, and any gear that makes it so they can continue to do so is worth any headache someone like you gives me.

 

 

It's that simple.

 

 

Besides, ninjas don't exist when groups use NBG systems.

Edited February 22, 2012 by terminova

[Bazouk]

I don't understand your point. I mean that sincerely. My original post was that it's generally accepted among MMO players that this is the etiquette for loot rolls. I even offered to show this is the case by asking it in other gaming forums.

 

I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying to pretend this isn't a community driven rule that is generally accepted is disingenuous. I'm not just saying a slight majority accepts this etiquette. I'm saying the overwhelming majority accepts it.

 

Is it community driven? Yes. Is it a hard rule from the devs? No.

 

But it is the conventional wisdom in the MMO community, and has been for years. If you disagree with the conventional wisdom, that's fine. But to pretend it doesn't exist is either incorrect or dishonest. I don't presume to know which.

 

Again, I personally do not like this generally accepted, community driven rule. But I don't pretend like it doesn't exist just because I disagree with it.

 

 

to say that in your vast experience as an mmo gamer, you've never seen any variation on this "community driven rule" leads me to believe that you aren't as experienced as you lead on. i'm not saying "community driven rules" don't exist, but i do know for a fact that they vary from game to game, server to server, and even guild to guild. i also know they change over time, and what once may have been considered fair game may now be considered ninja, and vice versa.

 

no, you don't speak for the "overwhelming majority". if you did, posts like this wouldn't be showing up in forums. this argument will rage on until the developers do something. like i said, wow solved this problem years ago. but i wouldn't expect the developers of this game to even know about that.

 

"need" in an mmo is a subjective term. it always has been. that's because there is absolutely nothing that anyone "needs" in an mmo. the only arguments that can be made are as to whether your desire for an object in question is more potent and more philosophically valid than someone else's. bearing that fundamental truth in mind, the argument should not be between people of differing opinions in the forum, but between the gamers and the developers. because the developers are the ones to blame for every single incident of ninja'ing that has ever occured, for the simple reason they they are the enablers. they make it possible.

 

so take your argument to them. and i suggest sending them a typed up copy of your universal rules of looting to make sure they fix it the way you want it fixed.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Bazouk

[Kaskava]

because the developers are the ones to blame for every single incident of ninja'ing that has ever occured, for the simple reason they they are the enablers. they make it possible.

 

No, they aren't. Just because they haven't laid down any hard and fast rules, since they're probably still confused how to handle the situation, doesn't make them enablers. Anymore, then anyone else who abuses a system was enabled by the people who created that system. Your argument is a cop-out. You just want to do what you do, and not have to worry about the consequences.

[Vecke]

to say that in your vast experience as an mmo gamer, you've never seen any variation on this "community driven rule" leads me to believe that you aren't as experienced as you lead on. i'm not saying "community driven rules" don't exist, but i do know for a fact that they vary from game to game, server to server, and even guild to guild. i also know they change over time, and what once may have been considered fair game may now be considered ninja, and vice versa.

 

no, you don't speak for the "overwhelming majority". if you did, posts like this wouldn't be showing up in forums. this argument will rage on until the developers do something. like i said, wow solved this problem years ago. but i wouldn't expect the developers of this game to even know about that..

 

I didn't say I have "vast experience." I specifically listed my experience and even offered to go to those forums and show you what the generally accepted norm is there. I also didn't say or infer that these rules don't evolve. As a matter of fact, I specifically stated that they SHOULD evolve for TOR.

 

Perhaps I worded it badly because (as you pointed out) I tend to be long winded...

 

The only thing I'm saying is that it is generally accepted in the MMO community that NBG means you roll only for the character that participated in that fight. This can change from group to group, depending on what they decide. Of course it can. And of course it evolves. I've made no claim otherwise.

 

But in ANY of the games I listed, if a variation isn't established at the beginning, it's generally assumed NBG means you only roll for the character that participated in the fight.

 

Look. I strongly suspect that we're on the same side of this debate in regards to TOR. As I stated many times in the previous part of this thread, I happen to believe the "Need" side makes some very compelling points. I also happen to hate NBG because of issues exactly like this. But I think it's unfair to suggest this isn't the single most common definition of NBG in the MMO world. It is the generally accepted definition in the vast majority of situations. Seriously, do you want me to go ask in every game I listed, then link the answers? I will if you want, although I don't like the idea of doing so much for a debate I don't really care about anyway.

 

Bottom line, I agree that NBG should evolve in this game. I'm open to pretty much anything, to be honest. But I'm not going to accuse the other side of trying to "push their own view" onto anybody. They're simply adhering to a community driven norm that has existed for years.

[Stoj]

I really think it depends what kind of server you play on.

 

If you're on a PvE server, then you shouldn't roll for companions. The content does not require your companions to be geared to the cutting edge.

 

If you're on PvP, it should be fine. I've been saved numerous times in open world PvP 1 v 1 fights by my companion outperforming an opponents.

[MorgonKara]

That doesn't seems like a big issue, considering it's lvl 30ish loot you're going to out-level it quickly anyways. Wait until people start ninja rolling Need on Columi stuff that hardly ever drops in Hardmode Flashpoints for their companions. That I can see complaining about. You need to gear up in Columi to do the hardmode raids and companions are not allowed in Ops. No reason someone should Need roll on set gear for a companion over a player character. Edited February 22, 2012 by MorgonKara

[Bazouk]

since they're probably still confused how to handle the situation

 

and you're trying to tell me this isn't the problem?

 

i'm not saying it's ok to ninja. i am saying using the word ninja loosely can be irresponsible, since everyone has their own slightly different rules that they follow. who are you to tell me that i don't need something? i think i should know better than anyone else what i need.

 

this is the basic argument that keeps the ninja debate going. and it's really easy to fix it. just make it impossible. blizzard did it. so can bioware if they want to.

 

don't get me wrong. i'm steadfastly against people who ninja, but you have to look at the situation, when it occurs, from an outside perspective. not from the perspective of a person who, in their own opinion, had more right to win a piece of loot than someone else.

 

you also have to understand that in most cases, an incident of ninja can be boiled down to a misunderstanding of, or flat out ignorance of what the specific loot rules in a given situation actually are. a lot of people are new to mmo's. a lot of people are from underprivelaged countries where not everything is fair and equal. opinions on loot rules vary far more than people think they do.

[Juromaro]

If someone rolls on an item that's BOE and they cannot use, but put it on on the AH then that's a ninja.

 

If someone rolls on an item that they can you(your companion is part of your character) and they give it to their companion then it's fair game.

 

 

Using the "Oh well everyone will need on everything if it's for companions then" is false and whoever says otherwise is stupid and knows nothing about the game. My SI has all the companions, not one of them uses Bounty Hunter gear, and only one uses Heavy gear.

 

Also to the comment about if I use my companion 100% of the time, 99% of the time yes, I play for about 15 hours a day, I do one flashpoint a day, The rest of the time I am out there with my Companion characters farming mats or questing. I spend far more time with my "pets" than I do with anyone in the game. If no one else hits need and my companion needs it you bet your *** I'm rolling on it because I'm not wasting 1-2 hours of my time for just social points.