Upcoming titles = pvp a lost cause in SWTOR?

[Gwal]

What's to stop "enemies" in other games from deciding not to shoot each other?

 

Lack of gear rewards for not shooting your enemy.

[DynamiteHeart]

I think it takes a certain type of person to actually want/enjoy WvWvW giant group PvP. I personally am not a fan of the idea as I don't like zerg PvP. I really hate the idea of running to an objective and just getting swarmed by a horde of opponents. I really hate the idea of my skill becoming trivialized as team sizes increase. I suppose it all depends on how they handle the WvWvW PvP, but in general it sounds like there will be too many people in a group to really let individual prowess shine.

[JuicyFruits]

I have played pretty much all of them, minus Rift. I can safely say, GW2 will not manage to live up to the promise as well, and that is simply because the PLAYERS are going to ruin it.

 

This is my concern as well.

 

Just watch the mentality here, people that grinded to battlemaster report that they are bored because they "don't have incentive to play" anymore.

 

so... I wonder if we'll really have vibrant world PVP, considering there is really no incentive given in GW2.

[Rasstavad]

SWToR has the best PvP I ever played. I love it. It's like a great chess match. Knock me off the ramp can jump back to you. Stun me I got a move out of that. Healing the ball carrier and gets stun I can pull him out of the fire or to the goal line. Most pvp in games is like hitting a ball on a rope with a stick not fun. SWToR's pvp is fun and makes me think of moves or what will I do if this happens to be a great player.

 

rofl

 

ToR pvp is checkers. The "complexity" of this pvp is geared for the "casual friendly kitty island" crowd.

 

Glad you enjoy it.

[Lerdoc]

lol People will hate the upcoming titles too after they actually get released. Welcome to the MMO community, where every upcoming game will be the best ever until it comes out. Then it becomes the worst ever.

 

This.

It will take a week until doomcallers will forsee F2P Tera and GW2. Both of that games will end up as usual. I don't know why would anyone who played more then WoW from 3rd exp could still be so deluded to think there will be magical MMO that will have magically everything working as intended with 0 fps issues with 100 people battles and so on and so forth.

[TheLakers]

It could be a disaster with a Goonswarm Federation-type guild alliance dominating every warzone all the time. Will be interesting to see how it goes.

 

No, that wouldn't be a disaster. If anything, servers would set up short-term alliances and defensive pacts against a Goonswarm to make things even more interesting. With the server overflow system, you can't really be outnumbered by much if there is a faction population cap.

 

Secondly, losing WvWvW isn't the end of the world. You just get less static bonuses for a couple weeks.

Edited February 21, 2012 by TheLakers

[Gwal]

This is my concern as well.

 

Just watch the mentality here, people that grinded to battlemaster report that they are bored because they "don't have incentive to play" anymore.

 

so... I wonder if we'll really have vibrant world PVP, considering there is really no incentive given in GW2.

 

Yes it will be awesome because all the WoW kiddies/purple addicts won't even try it.

 

There will be benefits to PvP in GW2 but you're looking at cosmetic ones like titles etc. You won't be beating people to get equipment to make it easier to beat them again. Also because the PvP in GW2 will include being able to take from your enemies and deny them taking from you it will keep PvP interesting. There won't be huge mechanical loss like L2 or full loot games but there will be ego loss in the form of the Castle.

 

SWTOR's pvp uses a "reward all, harm none" system which makes it an emotionless grind like PvE grinding. Basically the current SWTOR system turns PvP into a form of PvE grind, and convinces a lot of people that have no real love of PvP that they can prove they're awesomesauce by grinding Battlemaster. There is no barrier in SWTOR to any achievement apart from time investment.

 

RvRvR also does work, I've seen it in other games (RF) where one faction was severely underpopulated on our server and in that game every faction had a faction leader(defined by rank). Our faction leader effectively banned us from killing the underpopulated faction outside of self defence. We even took objectives and handed them to the underpopulated faction for a couple of weeks, then their population exploded and it turned into a 3 way war again. Now he had no way of enforcing his ban but the shiny title above his head and the exclusive chat/broadcast priviliges he had made people listen for the most part and made us feel like a community. That game had RvRvR battles every 8 hours, and most of them were led by our faction leader. Who would place guilds strategically based on strength in preperation for the battle.

 

The PvP in that made you a small part of something greater than yourself, part of a community. Right now when I am grinding for bags in SWTOR, I couldn't care less about my faction, me dying means nothing to them and vice versa. There is no reason in SWTOR to care about the community and that's not the fault of the players but the meaningless design. It's all about my gear, my dailies, my progress with no greater objective.

 

If Battlemaster gave you access to new content I would see its value but it's just a grind which anyone can achieve that makes further grinding less difficult.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Gwal

[Khaunshar]

Yes it will be awesome because all the WoW kiddies/purple addicts won't even try it.

 

There will be benefits to PvP in GW2 but you're looking at cosmetic ones like titles etc. You won't be beating people to get equipment to make it easier to beat them again. Also because the PvP in GW2 will include being able to take from your enemies and deny them taking from you it will keep PvP interesting. There won't be huge mechanical loss like L2 or full loot games but there will be ego loss in the form of the Castle.

 

SWTOR's pvp uses a "reward all, harm none" system which makes it an emotionless grind like PvE grinding. Basically the current SWTOR system turns PvP into a form of PvE grind, and convinces a lot of people that have no real love of PvP that they can prove they're awesomesauce by grinding Battlemaster. There is no barrier in SWTOR to any achievement apart from time investment.

 

RvRvR also does work, I've seen it in other games (RF) where one faction was severely underpopulated on our server and in that game every faction had a faction leader(defined by rank). Our faction leader effectively banned us from killing the underpopulated faction outside of self defence. We even took objectives and handed them to the underpopulated faction for a couple of weeks, then their population exploded and it turned into a 3 way war again. Now he had no way of enforcing his ban but the shiny title above his head and the exclusive chat/broadcast priviliges he had made people listen for the most part and made us feel like a community. That game had RvRvR battles every 8 hours, and most of them were led by our faction leader. Who would place guilds strategically based on strength in preperation for the battle.

 

The PvP in that made you a small part of something greater than yourself, part of a community. Right now when I am grinding for bags in SWTOR, I couldn't care less about my faction, me dying means nothing to them and vice versa. There is no reason in SWTOR to care about the community and that's not the fault of the players but the meaningless design. It's all about my gear, my dailies, my progress with no greater objective.

 

If Battlemaster gave you access to new content I would see its value but it's just a grind which anyone can achieve that makes further grinding less difficult.

 

Correct, but that is what the majority (who has the money) has proven for close to 10 years now to work. Work far better than any other incentive, and whenever what you propsed was, even slightly, introduced into a game, be it WAR, AOC or Aion, the community cried out, abused it, broke it, and basically went back to going for their OWN progression again.

Its the players, not the game.

[Aepervius]

I don't think we are the minority. You can consider FPS games out there to be PvP enviroment and a potential MMO Player with PvP content desire. UO was one of the first MMORPG and it had a heavy PvP open world.

 

The problem is that make PvE content is way more easy to do than PvP. You make the objectives, put some monsters into the pathway and you are done. The rest is most cinematic.

 

PvP breeding is hard to do and it is time consuming. Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies were the ones I played and enjoyed PvP. But if the developers doesn't think the classes/skills/rewards careful, later it will bring problems and create a snowball effect.

 

Instead of trying to fix pontual PvP design errors the rule today is "forget about PvP, we can't make these subscribers happy".

 

It is not a question of facility at creating the content. heck I would say that the content for PVP is much easier than the one for PVE, if only on the programming aspect point of view (you don#t need that much to do 10 warzone comapred to 10 new complete PVE zone), and the artistict aspect (you spare on mobs, on fields, on many artistic resource).

 

All in one, PVE is much more resource hungry than PVP.

 

No the reason every MMo concentrate on PVE instead of PVE is two pronged :

1) retention is lower with PVP player so far as I was told. They are also much quicker prone to complain , on balance, on how unfair they lsot etc...

2) more people enjoy PVE with occasional warzone PVP, rather than open world PVP. If you look back at the only proxy we have , the pop stats from SWTOR status, there was more PVE population. Heck even for those which remember UO, at one point there was enough complaint about non consensual PVP /PKer that they created trammel. This is also nicely reflected in previous generation massive RPG : MUDs which more often than not had PPK switches and duel.

 

So no, "The problem is that make PvE content is way more easy to do than PvP." is actually wrong.

 

heck PVP in a way is easier, as you , the PVPer, *make* the content aprtially yourselves with the competition between PVPer for the better score/win/gear etc...

[Aepervius]

Lets look at some numbers now while these are not the end all be all I think they raise some interesting questions.

 

 

(SNipped)

 

There might be a confounding factor : people making a star war search , unrelated to SWTOR but clickiing on the SWTOR video. It would be interesting to compare to the same growth on video unrelated to SWTOR to try to assess that factor.

[Sullydog]

OP:

 

I totally agree: having read the reviews by the media I trust of last weekends media closed beta I too think their PvP (WvWvW) looks incredibly fun and refreshing and harkins back to the great frontiers of DAOC in their prime.

 

Ilum and indeed the 3 warzones unfortunatly get stagnant pretty quick, especially when your end game armor revolves around you redundantly spendin gall your time doing them over and over.

 

Ilum has been a complete disaster - I still cannot fathom the people trying to post that its fun or good pvp in any form.

 

People around here should be wise not to underestimate GW2.

[Xsorus]

I enjoy Huttball, just because it's an actually interesting Scenario.

 

However, Voidstar and The Civil War I don't care for..

 

and Ilum.. Ilum i just a terrible joke in gaming....

 

It's not the layout either, It's the fact that its simply unplayable past like maybe 4v4 out there because of the lag.

[phluke]

There is nothing SWTOR can do to stop me and my guild from switching to GW2. We all picked up SWTOR(and Cata) as filler and i must say going from the 25+ keybinds to 10 is going to be nice.

 

Just the hot join servers of GW2(fps style servers) will make me change, no queuing, just pick a server and hop in. Also the 5v5 tournament brackets will add some great high end pvp. WvWvW is just icing on the cake imo.

[Nero]

It is not a question of facility at creating the content. heck I would say that the content for PVP is much easier than the one for PVE, if only on the programming aspect point of view (you don#t need that much to do 10 warzone comapred to 10 new complete PVE zone), and the artistict aspect (you spare on mobs, on fields, on many artistic resource).

 

All in one, PVE is much more resource hungry than PVP.

 

No the reason every MMo concentrate on PVE instead of PVE is two pronged :

1) retention is lower with PVP player so far as I was told. They are also much quicker prone to complain , on balance, on how unfair they lsot etc...

2) more people enjoy PVE with occasional warzone PVP, rather than open world PVP. If you look back at the only proxy we have , the pop stats from SWTOR status, there was more PVE population. Heck even for those which remember UO, at one point there was enough complaint about non consensual PVP /PKer that they created trammel. This is also nicely reflected in previous generation massive RPG : MUDs which more often than not had PPK switches and duel.

 

So no, "The problem is that make PvE content is way more easy to do than PvP." is actually wrong.

 

heck PVP in a way is easier, as you , the PVPer, *make* the content aprtially yourselves with the competition between PVPer for the better score/win/gear etc...

 

Wow, I just joined to check the forums again how this was going and saw your post. Hello.

 

Cinematic is very resource hungry but in another way. If you remove that and put a popup textbox it is the same quest with a lot less money spent on it.

 

Anyway, if you are right about PvP, then Bioware has no excuse to make what it did with Ilum. It is also double guilty when announce it wasn't just a KOTOR3 with chat but a full world to do other things like.... PVP! Guess what? It IS KOTOR3 with a chat! The engine isn't prepared to handle so many people in your screen and you start playing at 1fps in Ilum. This was clearly not tested. Crap even PvE raids with 16 people isn't smooth.

 

About PvP rentention. I played for 3 years UO and I think it is a very good retention time for any MMO. This was the first time I get sucked in with PvE cinematic and after you reach lvl 50 and are prepared to go into Ilum you have a sensantion like "meh, that's it?".

 

I also don't think how long PvE player retention is going to be here but making Flashpoints concentrated in a single point at the Fleet was a dumb decision. People are just going to make dailies and then later will start to have the same feeling as PvP players are having now. Killing the same thing over and over and not even having the trouble to cross an entire planet full of enemies to get into the Flashpoint. I can see my guild shrink every single day, mixed with PvE and PvP players, they are all feeling "Well, cinematic is over, what now? Not much to do.".

 

This game was designed with a single player enviroment in mind, and at the ending of class quests the game is over.

 

Anyway... I don't tink this is going to change anytime soon. So my decision was to unsub and look for other things to do. It isn't with my money that they are going to deliver what they should had already done.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Nero

[Nallaa]

One of the revolutionary features from Arenanet(Gw2) is called : Overflow server

 

In short, if your server has a queue you will be asked if you want to play while you wait, you can play on the overflow server. When your queue pops, you can just port on over.

 

 

"Martin Kerstein" Community Manager for Guild Wars

 

Let me explain what an overflow server is and what it does. It is a technology we also use as our version of a queuing system. When a map or a world you want to log into is at capacity limit, the game will ask you if you want to play on an overflow server - so you can actually play while you are in a queue. Once space opens on your world, the game will ask you if you want to join your friends on your world. And you keep all the progress you made while you were playing on the overflow server."

[Bartes]

lol People will hate the upcoming titles too after they actually get released. Welcome to the MMO community, where every upcoming game will be the best ever until it comes out. Then it becomes the worst ever.

 

true but I've stayed in Warhammer since beta till SWTOR release (3+ years) and I enjoyed it till the last day. In SWTOR I started to hate this game after dinging 50 and my first visit to Ilum.

 

SWTOR offers nothing after dinging 50/60. No new WZ or bags mess ups gonna fix it. Simple truth.

[Alexdaphnis]

It looks great on paper. I'm waiting to see how it works in reality, though. If there is anything I've learned from pvp in MMOs, it's that if a guild or guild alliance can destroy pvp for everyone else, they will.

 

As for your edit about gear, I love the idea of gear not playing a huge role and I hope it keeps the gear whores far away.

 

 

I agree 100%

[Rophez]

Interesting replies. My biggest concern with regard to SWTOR pvp is that even if Bioware has realized how popular Republic vs. Empire pvp is (DUH!!), they may not be able to do a lot with it because of their game engine. It seems this engine just doesn't handle lots of people on the screen well. Meanwhile, take a look at some of the other modern MMOs and you can see that their engines are far more optimized for large crowds. A curious decision by Bioware considering their huge budget...

[ScytheNoire]

I feel that SWTOR was doomed by copying the 800 pound gorilla and expecting that to work. You can't copy a game that came out in 2004, not add the features they've added since 2007, and expect it to be successful long-term.

 

SWTOR is in a lot of trouble. The game is just very dated with it's design. BioWare had no idea what they were doing when they made this MMO. They thought they could just take another game, make it Star Wars, add in story, and it would be a hit. But it doesn't work like that.

 

From what I've seen of a few upcoming games, SWTOR is in a lot of trouble if they expect to keep their audience, especially the PvP players. I know I'll be looking elsewhere. I'm not sure what could keep this game alive at this point. It was broken in design from the start.

[Winteria]

Even IGN the most crappy review around, those who give note of 9.0 to every games out there says that Bioware failled with Ilum..

 

Check this out : (FF to 7 min for action)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzQCi7c0DuY

 

World vs World with HUGE maps, Castles, tower, siege weapons, ressources and NO lag !

 

notice its the first BETA test of WvWvW and many things can change...

 

Good luck biofail.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Winteria

[Orangerascal]

There is nothing SWTOR can do to stop me and my guild from switching to GW2. We all picked up SWTOR(and Cata) as filler and i must say going from the 25+ keybinds to 10 is going to be nice.

 

Most pvp guilds on my server will be shipping there. SWTOR is a filler for us aswell.

 

WvWvW is just *drool* yummy.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Darthbarbarous]

The main fail in this game is that it is 2012 and we are playing a 2007 game, namely WOW. People had expectations that something new and different would be done in the pvp field, it is WOW plain an simple.

 

There is alot of anger because of the expectation people had. Bioware themselves said there was going to be innovative pvp, I wonder where they hid it.

 

So much potential here to just make a WOW clone is disappointing to say the least.

 

I am not dissagreeing with much of swtor being a wow clone, but the funny thing is.... most of the QQing and complaining on forums is by people requesting it to be more like WoW. They want arenas like wow, they want WZ like WoW, they want class roles like WoW, they want epic end game encounters (PVE) like WoW, they want crafting like WoW etc etc etc. These are all complaints listed regularily on forums here. So it goes back to the statement where people say they want to see change and innovation, but then go on to complain about how it is different from what they are used too so it essentially "sucks". Problem is the communtiy is so messed up as a whole that it does not actually know what it wants.

 

Its a no win situation. You can have complete innovation in a game and it will attract those that truely want it, but will generate QQ from the community that sits and compares it to what they are used too. Then you can make a game that is similar to another which will generate QQ from the people that actually want innovation and something new and refreshing. I am beginning to think games should just abolish forums from now on until the current MMO communtiy "grows up" and starts to think a bit more solidly in terms of what they "actually" want from a game. Not what they "think" they may enjoy and then change their mind once they see it because they never thought it through.

[Aepervius]

Most pvp guilds on my server will be shipping there. SWTOR is a filler for us aswell.

 

WvWvW is just *drool* yummy.

 

Heck it even attract "casuals" like me. Normally i hate open world PVP, but as presented up to now by the vids, and comments on the beta, this looks very attractive.

[UA_Wookie]

i might buy gw2 when it goes discount, but it strikes me as a mess around game with no lasting appeal, which does match its no subscription model mind you.

 

Ah, so you're one of those "the game must be inferior because it doesn't have a subscription" people.

 

Alot of MMO's are doing fine in today's market without the need for a sub. Alot of people tend to think subs aren't necessarily needed anymore either. Subs were a necessity back in the infancy of MMO's because of server and bandwith costs. However, those costs are now extremely cheap, and modern MMO's are taking advantage of the consumer by continuing to charge sub fees when they are entirely unnecessary in today's MMO market.

 

Consumers need to wise up. It's been ingrained in the consumer that your subscription cost somehow equates to a premium service...but that's just not the case anymore.

[sheisty]

Gw2 just has no carrots other than some dyes and achievements which I dont care about.

 

I want loot and item progression. And while the die hard PvP people will laugh at this, thats what I want. To be honest I like to gain power via equipment. Gw2 will be just bland "everyone is balanced" crap which des not interest me.

 

the videos I recently saw was some dudes trying to take a keep, so aoe death and a unbreakable door which takes 30 min to wither down while it rains aoe from 100 people defending. this does not sound at all exciting to me.