Upcoming titles = pvp a lost cause in SWTOR?

[WoodyDave]

Aion made me hate hat hate hate ncsoft.

 

 

Like with a passion hate.

 

Ncsoft is only publishing. Anet (formally known as blizzard north: The creators of Diablo 2) is the developer.

[Rasheth]

Actually, most of us pvpers were trying to submit feedback on how bad ilum was turning out. Most of us submitting feedback were ripped to shreds by the swtor fanbois, as this game is somehow perfect and has no flaws. It got so bad that any kind of feedback or criticism was quickly deleted because it turned into a flame war within 3 posts. Those were the "omg swtor pvp amazing" people you are referring too.

 

Those of us currently following the press beta details for gw2 haven't been disappointed yet. Unlike swtor which was getting mixed reviews at this point in development.

 

Well thats people well being people on the internet. Hard to avoid that on a forum.

 

I am not uninformed I just watched a video of thief vs mesmer 1v1.

 

My honest opinion of the video graphics look good. I like the barrel roll it adds a dynamic.

 

Thats it I can't grasp on to anything else from that video except someone's opinion (though it had no commentary)

 

I can't tell if it plays smooth and not clunky, I can't tell if balance is good at all. Why am I going to get hype? How could I or anyone else possibly praise its PvP if they havent played it. Unless there is a mass of people that had Media Access to the Beta on the forums I can't buy in until I have something concrete which isnt until a open beta.

 

I don't know maybe I am trying to understand something that can't be explained. I may be of a different demographic that bought SWTOR. I didn't grab it when it first came out. Asked around on streams on twitch and looked on the forums.

 

I bought the game with PvE in mind first. Now I love the PvP when transfers are offered I will transfer to PvP server. I like both. I pvp more than I pve thats for sure at this point.

 

If SWTOR had so many mixed reviews why did you still buy it anyway?

[Chaede]

take any video and count to me the number of abilites you have on screen/usable at any given time and come back to me

 

 

thats why , i dont wanna press 3 buttons in different combinations and call it a day, its just what i utterly hated of gw1 and why i never even gave it half a chance, its sooooo boring , pretty graphics, pretty boss fights, utterly bland and shallow gameplay

 

...

 

You are misinformed. You can choose 5 class abilities to have active (from a list) at any time. You get 5 racial/standard abilities for a total of 10 abilities. When you change weapons your 5 class abilities are a new combination.

 

That aside I am enjoying levelling in SWTOR. I like the class stories and that is what keeps me playing. Bugs, hackers etc will be fixed in time. So long as they add more story content it will be fine.

 

Not all of us play MMO's for the gear/pvp grind.

[Razot]

Apples to Apples

 

My logic is that many people post on these forums talk about GW2. In reality these forums as a whole are a small portion of the population that play this game.

 

I'd be willing to bet that hardcore pvpers are the ones that come to the pvp forums for the most part and complain they are moving to the next big thing (insert name here) when its released.

 

I am not directly comparing popularity for the point to say SWTOR is more popular than GW2 omgzorz. I am saying that you must take the majority of these things on the forums at face value.

 

Before swtor came out these same people saying OMG GW2 probably said OMG SWTOR pvp.

 

Anet has not even really stepped up into the full hype mode yet.. All the hype so far has been by people who have seen it at PAX and some media. On the other hand Bioware and EA had the hype machine going on full steam the last 2 years.

 

Anet has been pretty tight lipped about GW2 outside of few features.

[Calitri]

If there's anything i've learned from the SWTOR launch, it's to completely ignore anyones attempt to hype a game up as the next best thing ever. I've got a friend I play this game with right now, we're both sorta "meh" where ToR's concerned especially where what passes for PvP these days are concerned in MMO's in general. While i'm very skeptical about how good some people say GW2 will be, my friend included. It may actually turn out to be a good game because i'm not expecting it to be the best thing ever created. Edited February 21, 2012 by Calitri

[Fallensbane]

I think SWTOR was never planning on having as much of thier fan base be into PvP as they have. This has caused them to have to attempt to change things as they go in order to keep them...

 

I think they are making some good decisions, but its already to late I think. Most quality PvP's have already made up thier mind about the game(which is not balanced around them) and are just waiting for something else to come out.

 

 

I personally am waiting on Dominus instead of guild wars, but we will see if SWTOR can turn it around before one of them comes out.

 

 

P.S. If you don;t know what Dominus is I highly suggest you check it out. http://www.dominusthegame.com

 

This is one of the reasons. Pretty sure someone from Bio even game out and said they were suprised and overwhelmed by the amount of people who wanted to pvp

[Adzzy]

The same thing happened when WOW released BC. Everyone would get pissed if you attacked the other faction in Hellfire Peninsula because then you couldn't quest due to the all out PVP war. I for one thoroughly enjoyed the battle that ensued.

 

Stock standard response from my server - Let them cry

Edited February 21, 2012 by Adzzy

[Ahhmyface]

PvP in this game was doomed by the same group of people who doomed it in other titles for, sadly, the same reasons. It's got everything to do with ego, and them being convinced they had it right regardless what reality showed.

 

this. this same grp of players jumps ship to ever new mmo because the last one was broken and for some reason they weren't the leet pros they obviously are.

[Jebi]

this. this same grp of players jumps ship to ever new mmo because the last one was broken and for some reason they weren't the leet pros they obviously are.

 

You say 'this' as if you are agreeing with the guy you quote, but then say something completely different. He's not talking about the players, he's talking about the dev's.

 

Let me ask you this, name a good PVP MMO in recent years that's deserved to retain it's PVP players. EVE? Yes, and it's one of the few MMO's that has seen consistent growth.

 

What else?

 

WAR, Rift, AOC? Uhh... no.

 

It's not the players that's the problem. It's terrible PVP design.

 

Just like the guy you quoted said eg Warhammer PVP failed catastrophically. So what do they do in TOR? Oh right, copy the failed PVP setup from WAR and hope for a different outcome.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Jebi

[Rasheth]

Like I am trying to understand

 

GW2 Melee footage from this weekend.

 

 

Now if I take a honest look at this the things that jump out at me are some of the same things that are the front page of this forum alot!

 

Throughout the whole video alot snare/slow/root how is this any different?

 

At 4:20 melee dude is getting roasted by range classes.

 

What am I missing here that is different from other mmo's in terms of pvp? I don't have a vast MMO background so if someone from with more experience can chime in and tell me based off that video why this game is different?

 

That is the objective based pvp arena in beta there was 2 objective based arenas available were you basically capture nodes to build resources for your team and first to 500 wins. (watched the bff report)

 

Based on these forums people say objective based pvp isnt real pvp. (hutball) (alderaan) (voidstar)

[Rasheth]

Except he's not talking about the players, he's talking about the dev's.

 

Name a good PVP MMO in recent years that's deserved to retain it's PVP players. EVE? Yes, and it's one of the few MMO's that has seen consistent growth.

 

What else?

 

WAR, Rift, AOC? Uhh... no.

 

It's not the players that's the problem. It's terrible PVP design.

 

Just like the guy you quoted said eg Warhammer PVP failed catastrophically. So what do they do in TOR? Oh right, copy the failed PVP setup from WAR and hope for a different outcome.

 

 

This was the OPs Topic

 

I've recently seen the beta footage of an upcoming competitor's WvWvW PVP system. This video made me think of the good old days in DAOC and I was very pleased to see how crisp the graphics were with MANY people on the screen. The objectives look interesting and fun, and make circling for armaments on Ilum seem like a really bad joke.

 

Can Bioware do enough to improve their open world pvp before competition takes away the players who are interested in PVP?

 

My point throughout this thread.

 

Point is if people are interested in GW2 PvP they will more than buy it or try it in beta anyway. So GW2 does not in fact = SWTOR PvP has MADE ME buy GW2 for its PvP.

 

YOUR GOING TO BUY IT/TRY IT ANYWAY

 

So asking can Bioware do this or that to keep me from playing Guildwars 2 is irrelevant. BIOWARE has no say what so ever on what you spend your money on or how you dedicate your freetime. They are not your parents.

 

The people that are making Guildwars 2 have more of a impact if your going to guy Guildwars 2. /logic

Edited February 21, 2012 by Rasheth

[Jebi]

Throughout the whole video alot snare/slow/root how is this any different?

 

He also had a lot of pulls, and teleports. And as there are heaps of abilities to chose from, as well as multiple weapon sets, who's to say he didn't bring or use the right ones? It's hard to comment on a beta vid of a game we haven't played.

 

But notice how he wasn't 1-2 hit by better geared players? Or spent the majority of the fight stunned? It's already an improvement IMO.

 

Plus there are a lot better video's than that, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzQCi7c0DuY‏

 

At 4:20 melee dude is getting roasted by range classes.

 

It was like, 5 on 1? What did you expect?

 

Based on these forums people say objective based pvp isnt real pvp. (hutball) (alderaan) (voidstar)

 

They say minigame grinds with gear discrepancies isn't PVP. Competitive PVP where player skill decides the outcome of fights, complete with ladders and tournaments? That's a whole different story.

 

Plus, GW also has dynamic world PVP with three factions and meaningful objectives.

 

Point is if people are interested in GW2 PvP they will more than buy it or try it in beta anyway. So GW2 does not in fact = SWTOR PvP has MADE ME buy GW2 for its PvP.

 

YOUR GOING TO BUY IT/TRY IT ANYWAY

 

So asking can Bioware do this or that to keep me from playing Guildwars 2 is irrelevant. BIOWARE has no say what so ever on what you spend your money on or how you dedicate your freetime. They are not your parents.

 

The people that are making Guildwars 2 have more of a impact if your going to guy Guildwars 2. /logic

 

But BW is already losing PVP players at a fairly rapid pace. If they want to retain there PVP'ers they need to add actual PVP content. Grinding minigames and clicking on crates can only keep people interested for so long.

 

Yes, most PVP'ers will try GW2 regardless of what happens in TOR, but I think you will find there will be very few PVP'ers left here by the time GW even hits...unless BW pickup their PVP game soon.

 

Similarly, if people try GW2 and it's better than TOR, they likely won't come back. Who's fault's that? Sure, BW can sit on their hands... but they are out to make money, right?

Edited February 21, 2012 by Jebi

[rbguy]

A few things I've noticed about GW2.

 

1. The ambient sound effects are probably the best I've ever heard in a game judging from the demos which really lends itself to the feeling of immersion. I mean people in plate running by sound different than people in cloth, that's pretty cool.

 

2. It seems the Anet developers really have a love for the game and are extremely detail oriented. In contrast you look at the UI in Swtor, it's functional, nothing more. You look at the worlds, somewhat (well highly) static and not much of an alive feeling. Look at Nar Shadaa it's got square rooms and some npc's, a few ambient effects I guess(steam ect) but still very blaaa and it's one of the better worlds. It's like they said, ok we need to whip this world out, plop down some NPC's and get on to the next world. Either that or the Hero engine doesn't allow for many ambient effect without huge lag.

 

I've spent my fair share of time in Swtor (lvl 63 BM) and when I think about it, and maybe this is just me, but I just don't feel like there was really a love affair by the designers when developing this game with FUN in mind. Seems like they were more concerned with just capitalizing on the Star Wars IP and getting something out in a basic form. The writters however do deserve kudos. I think the writting is really superb so I can't place any blame on them.

Edited February 21, 2012 by rbguy

[TriIIian]

They spent too much on cut scenes and forgot about everything else. Its a great game for story, but what about the rest of the MMO. I think about what this game could have been like if they spent 300 mil and just did the main story as cut scenes. Dont get me wrong its a fun game to level to 50.

 

But we could have had so much more. More skills/classes. 10/20 WZ instead of 3. heaps of different types of gear. More character creation types etc.. I think an MMO needs alot more then cut scenes.

Edited February 21, 2012 by TriIIian

[deags]

lol People will hate the upcoming titles too after they actually get released. Welcome to the MMO community, where every upcoming game will be the best ever until it comes out. Then it becomes the worst ever.

 

Have to agree with this, give these other MMOs some time after launching and you will see people turn on it, expectations are always higher then reality it seems when it comes MMOs.

[Caribroo]

lol GW2 will fail....

 

It can't fail, it doesn't have a subscription.

[RobNightfall]

It isn't a lost cause, but BW needs to up their game in a hurry. GW2 won't be perfect, nothing ever is, but the ideas they're trying to implement sound like major improvements over current PvP in WoW, Rift, and here. Other titles are coming as well (don't know that much about them) and if someone perfects AoC's siege system I know I'll be dropping everything and heading in their direction in short order.

[DariuszPol]

lol People will hate the upcoming titles too after they actually get released. Welcome to the MMO community, where every upcoming game will be the best ever until it comes out. Then it becomes the worst ever.

 

I would agree but on my favorite gaming website guy who bash every MMO there is including Guild Wars 1 was very very pleased about GW2. He did mention that this stuff will need polishing but still - it was GREAT.

 

And if HE said that I believe him. Server vs server vs server war on huge battlegrounds is something I want to see. Just think about Alderan but 100x bigger. Or more.

 

And other stuff like mixing weapons. First 5 slots will be dedicated to weapon you carry. And it's not some primitive stuff like in SWTOR where you stick with same gun for the rest of your life. Nope. You actually can fight with huge sword just to switch to short sword and gun or two swords or gun and shield or something like that. And you will get 5 skills for that combination.

 

Also they say that PVE look even better. No more stupid quest hubs, quest givers etc. Dynamic events, grouping just by entering area of event, reward based on performance, even scaling etc. And they say - it's working !!.

Not only that - he said that he wanted to teleport to some point in the map but it was gray. So he teleported to near base and walked on foot there.

What he saw - event ! - camp was under siege. After he help in the even - area was unlocked again.

 

Not only that. Even scaling work both ways. If high lvl overpowered guy will try to do low lvl quest - he will be scaled so this quest can give him a challenge.

 

There is a loot of stuff like that. No stupid instances. Stuff will happen on the map ! I cant wait to see it

 

If it will really work - TOR can just surrender I think. That game will be only for star wars fans.

[rbguy]

To reiterate my point on attention to detail and ambient sounds in a game I would point to this video HERE. Not to mention the epic 1v1 against a thief @ 8:30 in.

 

Not a GW2 fanboi just demonstrating ambient sounds done right and what an impact it can have on the game of which I would love to see more in Swtor.

[Mertissielle]

lol GW2 will fail....

 

I'm curious, are you basing this notion on the 6.5m box sales of the first game, the revision of core MMO mechanics or the fact that Guild Wars was widely heralded as being on the best "pure" PvP experiences in the genre due to its detatchment from gear?

 

Or maybe it's just that you're not especially sure of what you're talking about? If you think it'll fail then fine, but the evidence from the first game and the praise their pre-release marketing has received somewhat suggests otherwise. Which puts you in a position of needing to back up your claims with reasoning if you want to be taken seriously.

[Adzzy]

i might buy gw2 when it goes discount, but it strikes me as a mess around game with no lasting appeal, which does match its no subscription model mind you.

[fungihoujo]

I rather like TOR pvp.

 

The classes feel balanced to a degree I've never seen in an mmo before being the main reason. Huttball has a great deal of strategy to it, and while the other two WZ feel a bit flawed, luckily I'm Imp so I don't have to deal with those often.

 

I never expect pvp to be perfect out the door- messing up owPvP doesn't surprise me because everyone messes that up- yeah yeah, I've heard people praising the DAoC zergfests- but these are the same people who'll then complain about the oh so dreadful 4 second stun and 8 second mez... and I'm just thinking, you're complaining about 8 second mezzes but you can praise DAoC?

 

Then we have WoW, which took til Wrath to make decent world pvp... then promptly ruined it by limiting numbers, then promptly butchered it in Cata by making the worst 'world pvp zone' ever- if you're not on a pvp server in fact, this world pvp zone doesn't even flag you. Fail at its worst.

 

 

Frankly, they've fixed some things, they've tried to fix others- as long as I see them making an effort to fix their mess ups I'm fine, cuz I figure they'll eventually get it right if they keep trying.... I mean, WoW broke my class in Cata, with a bug that made my pet spawn with 1% of their max health for about 10 seconds... when I quit about a year and a half later, that bug was still there. I don't think I'll have the patience to wait a year and a half for game breaking bugs to be fixed this time, but point is, I can be patient.

[sonofchiefy]

Arenanet have absolutely proven with GW1 that they understand PvP, GW2 in that respect you can only imagine being even more incredibly well developed.

Now we wait to see if they can break the PvE mould and from what the early cut beta videos are showing and the reports from there it looks like it's going to lead the MMO genre.

To have a fantasy based system that breaks the tank, mid line, healer mould will be something to look forward to in itself.

Pity SWTOR just tried to please the grinding crows, although saying that, I still like this game. I wish there were just more PvP options and a balanced system between imp and rep.

[Fopspeenzuiger]

This game has some real potential if you ask me.

 

If they'd add 1 or 2 more warzones with interesting tactical options, the option to choose which WZ's you queue up for, and introduce ranked warzones (face it, this will never be an esport, but some competition never hurts) it'd be a lot better.

 

Class balance is nearly the best I've seen in any new MMORPG. SO many games failed SO much harder here. DoaC had the mez thing, and whatnot. Rift had the typical FotM attitude where you had to be saboteur first, then warrior, etc... , to do well, warhammer had the bright wizard, and don't even get me started on vanilla wow balance (it felt ok-ish in tbc, I quit just before wotlk so I wouldn't know how it's now). Sorc hybrids get maybe slightly too much roots/stuns for a melee player to be comfortable with, and at 50 scoundrels/ops do need a little help, but apart from that it's quite fine.

 

Ilum will never work until factions balance out. It seems to me like there's more imp qq then republic (there's more of them so it's quite normal) so it will actually even out some when the qq'ers leave to 4 button zergs in GW2

They will need to add some more tactical options and interesting possibilities to it, but it's not even worth putting any developer's time in as long as factions are this unbalanced if you ask me.

 

Mass pvp never appealed to me. It turns into mindless zergs and I prefer to play with smaller premades where tactics and teamplay win games.

 

I like the fact that I need to have a huge ammount of key bindings in this game. The ammount of procs I need to keep track of. My resolve bar, and ofcourse my enemy's to keep in mind, etc... This game really has potential to be at least a very enjoyable pvp experience.

 

True, it'll never be a full RvR game built around pvp, but it could still have great pvp experience without too many adjustments.

 

On top of that, leveling a toon doesn't feel like a chore for once, which is also very refreshing.

 

Sure, GW2 could be better and I might give it a try, but looking back at the last few years I need to see it before I believe it.

 

Warhammer was gonne be the summit of pvp games. AoC was gonna do everything diffirent and better. Rift was gonna be endlessly dynamic and immersing and insanely good. And Aion was gonna change how we see mmorpg's.

As it turns out, warhammer was hugely imbalanced (bright wizards anyone?) and crashed the server in big battles, AoC had next to no endgame content AND was hugely imbalanced. Rift was dull. The dynamic content was just the same over and over, and the pvp was hugely imbalanced. Aion was the worst of all the games I just mentioned if you ask me.

Excuse me if I'm sceptic about GW2 till I've actually played it...

Edited February 21, 2012 by Fopspeenzuiger

[Khaunshar]

The only good PvP game in YEARS has been Guild Wars, which turned out to be too competitive for many people, and towards Nightfall and beyond had, quoting ArenaNet, more people playing PvE than PvP.

 

The only good zerg game has, in years, been EVE, which is a class on its own and cannot really be used as a measuring stick.

 

Before that, DAOC did a few things right, but chiefly the 3-Realm-idea. However, it was and still is a total mess in terms of balance, and is not suitable for 2012 players.

 

Since then, half a dozen PvP games have tried and failed at capturing the interest of the PvP crowd in numbers making it the primary concern, rather than having to fall back on PvE to keep people subscribed.

 

I have played pretty much all of them, minus Rift. I can safely say, GW2 will not manage to live up to the promise as well, and that is simply because the PLAYERS are going to ruin it.

 

See, the thing is, people need incentives to play. They are trained that way for years now, and while a tiny minority claims they play for the fun, the large majority wants some sort of ranking, progression, rewards or whatnot.

Also, WAR, AOC, LotRO (yes, LotRO), Aion... they all had a plethora of tools and possibilities to create great PvP fun among the playerbase. Proof is that there did exist, and still do, servers where it not just works, but is great fun. However, in all of these cases, its a couple of individuals or guilds organizing a form of PvP, and the players playing along.

 

Yes, you COULD circle-raid in WAR, and ruin its intention. But on my server, that actually never happened! We had great evenings of close sieges and everything. Open PvP without incentives bores people. Open PvP WITH incentives makes people min/max incentive gain, which usually breaks PvP.

 

The only way I see this working, outside of single individuals organizing their servers PvP into a fun experience, is by railroading everyone into ONE direction, and making sure that direction is somewhat fun. Freedom of choice is the death of MMO PvP, simply because the PLAYERBASE will make sure of that.