An Appeal to Bioware Regarding Operations Difficulty and Design

[jingadingdangdo]

It's really good to see some different perspectives here, both casual and hardcore, clamoring for harder content. I'm not saying every hardcore player and every casual player wants harder content but it does show that there are a broad range of players who very much want this.

[Noroimuja]

being an officer in one of the top 15 guilds in europe i fully agree with OP.

 

Normal->Hard->Nightmare

 

climb is just too easy; 4 weeks and we kill karagga nightmare.

 

Soa hardmode before the nerf was the only difficult boss - and that was because of rng, not mechanics.

[Rollento]

I just wanted to chime in, I agree with a lot of the OP's analysis. I am a member of a casual guild. I am a casual player. I have a wife and kids and a day job. I also enjoy the heck out of mmo's, and raiding. My guild raids 2 nights a week for for a total of 7 hours. We transferred over from that other MMO, where we were also a casual guild. We raided normal mode raids there, and found them challenging. It typically took us at least a month of raiding to down a full normal mode raid. Last night we downed all of EV on normal in an hour, and proceeded to one shot everything up to SOA on HARD mode. That is simply not challenging enough, even for a casual player.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baconmonster

It's about that carrot on a string, the best way to retain subs is to keep us chasing that carrot. Creating difficult content at end game with reward about equal to our risk keeps raiders, both hardcore and casual, chasing that carrot. Right now people, again both casual and hardcore, are catching and eating the carrot, that's not a good game design.

 

As a casual player, I completely agree with the above. I put in 2 nights a week of raiding, and I don't want to eat the carrot. Judging from the fact that we 1 shot this content on HM without really gearing up, I foresee us eating the carrot in the near future. My guild should NEVER be able to eat the carrot. We aren't trying to do that! It is important to us that there be a level of raiding that we simply cannot do. Even if we deluded ourselves into thinking we had the skills, just not the time, we still need to see that it takes other guilds 4 or 5 nights a week to down the hardest content. That fuels us, and renders our casual accomplishments all the more meaningful. Hard core end game raiding guilds are great for MMO's on the whole. Not for their epeen, but these guys make the news. Its great for exposure, and without that kind of commitment this MMO simply won't go anywhere. Its not farmville, its a hack and slash MMO that fits squarely into an established genre. While this genre caters to casual players, like me, it is important to have people playing the game that are better and more dedicated to it. Look at Blizz Con 2010 for instance, where top guild Paragon is lined up doing insane encounters. I want to see stuff like that. I play softball on Thursday nights, and I love watching Major League Baseball. I am not of a caliber sufficient to play there, but that display makes my beer league softball more enjoyable!

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Chino

"Hardcore Raiding" shouldn't reward anything more than a feeling of accomplishment from getting the content itself done. Nothing Extra. There should not be any "Risk vs Reward" factor. You either do the raids on hard mode because you like to or you don't.

 

If your argument is that there is no incentive to do so, than the want for challenge in raiding is not enough to outweigh the lust for loot and exclusivity.

 

This argument just makes no sense to me. Again, this is an established genre. SWTOR is not some brand new game design. End game involves loot acquisition. Take a step back and look at it! PVP model: Warzones and Ilum reward loot and valor. You acquire more loot, you kill more of the opposite faction, you get more valor which opens a gateway to better loot. Time, effort and skill in, better loot out. Dailies, you grind out daily commendations which you can turn in for some epic armor mods. You can grind a ton of dailies, and get rakata implants/ears. Effort and time in, better loot out. This paradigm exists throughout the entire game, why in the heck would it not apply to PVE endgame!

 

In summation, I am a casual player who wants the existence of content which is simply too hard for me to do. This stuff is just too easy, plain and simple. And we play end game for loot. Harder content that takes more time deserves better loot.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself. I was a hardcore raider in my youth, and I enjoyed every minute of it. Now that I'm older, I do not have the time to put in the hours to be on the cutting edge. However, I think there are two questions that has hardcore and casual players up and arms.

 

Should everyone be able to accomplish hard mode/nightmare mode content? No.

 

Can everyone shoot a basketball like Kobe Bryant does? No. Now if we put in the patience and time and practiced everyday for several years could we? Possibly. It is the same reasoning why everyone shouldn't be able to clear through hard mode/nightmare mode with little effort. One of the greatest enjoyments for me with PvE Raiding was when new content was released in a MMO and seeing all the best of the best guilds race to be the World First Best Guild in the game. It benefited the game as well. It promoted the game through competition among hardcore players and in-depth coverage from news/podcasts websites. It also brought healthy competition to the casual guilds. It was something for players to look forward to. Even if the casual player might never accomplish it.

 

 

Should the gear stay the same for this "insane" content? No.

 

Its that carrot on the stick us MMO players need. Casual guilds should feel they need to gear up in hard mode flashpoints/Normal ops to do Hard Mode for a few weeks, then gear up from Hard Mode Ops to one day be able to do Nightmare Mode Ops. Sometimes these guilds may not get to the carrot. Maybe new content will come out and the process will start over again, but it keeps the casual player coming back to the game for more. For raiding content, this is essential. Many PvE players leave an MMO because there is nothing left for them to do. Expanding the difficulty in the levels might help quench the problem, but lets face it, we as humans need an incentive to do it. Gear does that for us in MMOs, and even as the OP said, the gear doesn't have to scale ridiculously. Just enough to be superior.

 

TL;DR

 

Hardcore content is needed in MMOs, even if the game consists of mostly casual/semi-hardcore players.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Rollento

[The-Vortex]

My guild just started doing 16 man ops the other week and I was quite surprised at how much harder than 8 man they were, and if I'm honest I prefer it to 8 man.

 

If anything, Bioware should be looking at ways to make 8 man content slightly more difficult instead of nerfing 16 man. 16 man normal isn't really all that hard when you step back and take a good look at it but still presents somewhat of a challenge - unlike 8 man.

 

Take the example of xxr3 on 8 man and 16 man normal mode. First week of raiding my guild killed it on the first attempt by just nuking it down, ignoring all of the mechanics, hell we even managed it on hard mode. What happened on 16 man?

People screwed up on the Missile Strike - they died and killed everyone around them. Didn't move in time during Storm Protocol - they died. You get the idea.....

 

I guess what I'm saying is normal mode shouldn't mean you can completely ignore boss mechanics and not be penalised for it. Obviously not all 16 man bosses are like this on normal mode but I feel that this is what entry level raiding should be - presenting somewhat of a challenge but still allowing players to see the content if they are willing to put the slightest bit of effort into improving their game-play and their characters.

[Dukibritches]

I agree with the OP and I think the rest of my guild would as well. Normal mode Ops are fine the way they are or perhaps be tuned to be slightly harder because they are really simple as it is right now. Hard Mode ops need to be much more difficult than normal mode and include additional mechanics to make the fight more difficult instead of just increasing the amount of health and damage for the bosses.

 

Like the OP pointed out, once you have all the gear from normal mode ops the hard modes do not offer a greater challenge, really all they serve as is a gear check. If a guild has completed normal ops on a regular basis then these fights ultimately are the same thing as normal and dont feel any more difficult.

 

Personally, there should always be at least one or two additional mechanics to deal with on Hard and even more on Nightmare. This keeps people interested in the harder modes because the fight simply isnt the same as in normal.

 

Obviously a couple encounters already have different/more mechanics in Hard Modes, but I think that this area needs to be focused on more when creating hard mode encounters in the future.

[ztee]

I agree with a majority of your post.

 

I was a little concerned when I realised that you get Rakata from both HM and NMM, and thought to myself “what are they thinking?”

 

I do have some suggestions for them in regards to customer service though – specifically around wait times and auto generated responses. They need to consider implementing features into the game that allow players to take care of the trivial issues themselves. Not being able to trade loot amongst your ops group for a limited amount of time is a huge flaw; I couldn’t imagine how many less loot tickets they would receive if they develop this. Another would be a refund feature for commendations if you buy something in error.

 

Overall, I really like the ops I’ve seen so far and some of the fights are really well done (SOA and Fabricator come to mind), and some a just stupidly easy for NMM - /wave Karagga. But damn dudes, add some additional abilities or something on the harder modes.

[jingadingdangdo]

Nightmare definitely feels pretty unrewarding in it's current state. Here's hoping they plan out the gear drops much better in the next raid tier.

[Hassansinated]

I agree completely. Ive lead and been in many hardcore raiding guilds but have never cleared ALL content this fast. Nothing to do after acquiring full Rakata and BM but farm and gear up guildies. Nightmare mode is like taking an elementary math test in college. Easy and redundant.

I want to keep playing and enjoy this game, but without different difficulty/gear scaling, there is nothing that makes me want to keep coming back day after day.

[Kanana]

Scaling a game for the tiny minority of hardocre raiders or wannabes is poisonous. The average casual gamer is driven off when it becomes clear that he or she can never reach the "endgame" without giving up their life.

[Hassansinated]

Scaling a game for the tiny minority of hardocre raiders or wannabes is poisonous. The average casual gamer is driven off when it becomes clear that he or she can never reach the "endgame" without giving up their life.

 

Many previous succesful MMOs never had a problem with the casuals leaving when there was an OPTION to do harder content. The point of having an endgame is to challenge players. Not to hand out gear to people who arent able to put the time and work in... This genre of game is, has, and will always have the same basic endgame composition. Just because the casual players cannot put in the time for top tier gear and rewards doesnt mean they shouldnt be there. You're a casual player, you shouldnt care about something you will never play enough to accomplish.

[GrandMike]

If you can back up claims like "masses of average players have already beaten NM mode raids" with hard numbers, ill agree, otherwise that wall of text is mass of words with no meaning.

 

Of course your drivel then proceeds to gear and that was like 100% expected.

 

So i will place my own appeal to BW:

 

Dont change what they want changed and change what they dont want changed (see: 8-16 difficulty) and you will actually have good game. In short do OPPOSITE of what these peoplee demand to make good game for 95-97% of your playerbase.

 

Catering to "elitist" never yielded anything good (see: WoW Cata exp, Rift, LOTRO...)

Edited February 21, 2012 by GrandMike

[Hassansinated]

Not everyone in the game has reached endgameend BUT MANY PEOPLE HAVE. Many people posting in this section of the forum have. That is why they are posting here, about this topic; Because they are here in the game. Please stop posting here just to refute our in game realities or say that the people here are elitist because they are good at this game and have put in the time and effort. It doesnt hurt the casuals (noobs) for harder content and better rewards to be available.

[Hergul]

our guild has done 5/5 EV / and 3 / 5 KP

 

all of us have 7 years of experience in MMO`s, some in wow hardcore and others in other mmo´s

 

now that clearing is on normal

 

 

so why change things ? ... not our fault that ppl stress/hamsterwheel their way thru content thinking they will be world renowned for clearing a game in what they would call "record time"

 

who honestly gives a flying F about clearing content as fast as possible ?

 

 

Enjoy the damn game guys and stop stressing about " its to easy " / " theres nothing to do " buhuhuhhu

 

you would have had plently to do if you didnt rush ur way thru it !

[Hassansinated]

Sorry that my normal speed is your rushed .... Edited February 21, 2012 by Hassansinated

[GrandMike]

our guild has done 5/5 EV / and 3 / 5 KP

 

all of us have 7 years of experience in MMO`s, some in wow hardcore and others in other mmo´s

 

now that clearing is on normal

 

 

so why change things ? ... not our fault that ppl stress/hamsterwheel their way thru content thinking they will be world renowned for clearing a game in what they would call "record time"

 

who honestly gives a flying F about clearing content as fast as possible ?

 

 

Enjoy the damn game guys and stop stressing about " its to easy " / " theres nothing to do " buhuhuhhu

 

you would have had plently to do if you didnt rush ur way thru it !

 

Agreed. Roll an alt or opposite faction, do something actually good for community like events and stuff...

 

No, it seems that qqing about making longer hamster wheels is beneficial for community...that doesnt care about it.

[Hassansinated]

I have one other 50...Why should I have to reroll to have something to do?

[Sibonk]

Hello everyone.

 

As you may have noticed, we have removed a significant number of posts from this thread, and we would like to remind everyone of the rules of conduct in the forums.

 

• No insults, name calling, or personal attacks
  
• Please stay on topic.
  
• Please express your opinion and thoughts in a constructive, respectful manner.
  
• If someone violates the Rules of Conduct, please flag it instead of replying to it.
  
• Keep in mind that everyone has different viewpoints. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're trolling. If you believe someone is trolling, please use the Flag function to report their post.
  

That being said, we ask that you please keep your posts civil, on topic and respectful otherwise we will have to close this thread.

 

Thank you.

[Hassansinated]

It does seem right to call it nightmare mode at its current difficulty. Edited February 21, 2012 by Hassansinated

[GrandMike]

It just doesnt seem right to call it nightmare mode at its current difficulty level.

 

Community and BW disagree.

Edited February 21, 2012 by GrandMike

[Hassansinated]

Yes they do

[Qsawden]

just wana point out the dev said trolling

[GrandMike]

Very well put, sir. I think Bioware is off to a good start though and I'll use a brief example to show why that is the case. I have played in quite a few pen and paper games over the years and enjoyed some and hated others much like MMOs. There were certain aspects I liked about combat and others that I didn't and certain Dungeon masters that did it right and others that did everything wrong.

 

Awhile ago I took on the challenge of DMing my own game and creating a world and encouters from scratch. My first few games the combat was sub par. It had the creatures it did the things I liked about some of the other combats I played it, but what it lacked was experience. Something that you can only gain through doing and hearing feedback from the players. Eventually I got better and my players really enjoyed the challenge of the fights that were catered to them.

 

Basically what I am saying is your post is needed and hopefully Bioware reads it and takes it into account. We'll see how things improve in the 1.2 Operation. If they are static than it may be time to be worried, but even if only a small portion of your thoughts and others are added than we are off to a great start. That is the optimist in me though I suppose.

 

Now imagine having 100 players that you have to make content for and, 1 of those players demand you dedicate significant amount of time and make content especially just for him (that other 99 dont care for at all), because he claims he is a special snowflake and if he leaves your DM-ing will be"epic-fail"

 

Would you do it?

Edited February 21, 2012 by GrandMike

[silverprovidence]

Now imagine having 100 players that you have to make content for and, 1 of those players demand you dedicate significant amount of time and make content especially just for him (that other 99 dont care for at all), because he claims he is a special snowflake and if he leaves your DM-ing will be"epic-fail"

 

Would you do it?

 

I love it how people make this '1%' claim without defining it. Either they are subsuming a broad and diverse playerbase under a single label... or they have the belief that virtually every player of these games is a bumbling idiot. I suppose if you consider the playerbase in general to be a bunch of incompetents people shoudl be more offended.

Edited February 21, 2012 by silverprovidence

[jingadingdangdo]

Now imagine having 100 players that you have to make content for and, 1 of those players demand you dedicate significant amount of time and make content especially just for him (that other 99 dont care for at all), because he claims he is a special snowflake and if he leaves your DM-ing will be"epic-fail"

 

Would you do it?

 

A few points:

 

1) The content is already made - no one is asking for content to be made for the hardcore crowd only. We are simply asking for Bioware to make use of the 3 difficulty settings and tune them such that the hard and nightmare modes represent a challenge. This does not lock anyone out of anything. Everyone still gets to see the end game content at varying levels of difficulty.

 

2) Your examples are massively exaggerated. If you can show me any statistic that says there are 100 casual players that actually raid for every 1 hardcore raider I'll retract that but I think the chances of that happening are abysmally small.

 

3) If the only thing for us to do is simply "roll an alt" I can't see this game retaining many long term subscribers. A large number of people simply have absolutely no interest in doing this and, even for those that do, if the only re-playability in the game lies in rolling alts the majority of the game's subscribers will move on to other things within 2-3 months. SW:TOR promised a decent end game and has the system in place to deliver such. Large numbers of people, myself included, bought the game based upon this. If the game's developers have no intention of delivering this kind of content I'm okay with that. I will feel that I was mislead but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it and will simply move onto another game that doesn't mislead its customers.

 

Patch 1.2 will be the real test for SW:TOR. I'm eager to see what happens because I really think it will be a make or break point for this game.

Edited February 21, 2012 by jingadingdangdo

[silverprovidence]

2) Your examples are massively exaggerated. If you can show me any statistic that says there are 100 casual players that actually raid for every 1 hardcore raider I'll retract that but I think the chances of that happening are abysmally

 

I'd like to see people actually define their 'casual' and 'hardcore' modifiers. More so people who claim to be representing '99% of the playerbase'. Because they're just subsuming the vast and diverse playerbase under a singular mantle of 'casual' in a means of projecting 'virtue' rather than as a concrete argument.