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Angedechu

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http://www.1up.com/news/god-war-creator-calls-story

 

What I mean is that deep story telling is important in a game. But games are NOT the best medium for story.

 

he was talking about whether or not games should tell you a story or have player authored stories

 

now we can argue about whether or not bioware tells stories or allows for player created stories

 

those who think they are player created will argue thats because of decision making the story is the players

 

those who think it just tells a story will argue many reasons the most reocurring one will be that their games arent sandbox and in fact linear rpgs(tor and da) and linear shooters(me no, me is not an rpg)

 

as you can tell i feel that bw games do not allow for player created stories

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Example?

 

Doesn't matter the example, it's all preference related.

 

Notice how in schools they don't just appeal to one of your senses. They teach to many, visual, audio, physical touch. These all create a unique experience, and each person will enjoy them on a different level.

 

Take for example the sheer volume of those people who dislike reading, and would rather watch T.V.

 

Does that mean that people who watch movies are more inclined to experience a story better than those who read a book? Further, why wouldn't a game be on those exact same levels. Games provide both audio, visual, and interaction to the story. Personally I would think games might be the BEST medium.

Edited by djsmileey
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Example?

 

Left 4 Dead would be utterly ineffective in novel form - the brilliance of its story telling is in the environment.

 

Gordon Freeman is also one of the most effective story-telling devices ever.

 

In general, it's the nature of interactivity - an entire toolchest that books cannot effectively access.

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I read this great paper a while ago where the author suggested that the medium of storytelling has evolved with technology and will continue to do so and that people's perception of the various medium is shaped by the technology they grew up with.

 

Older generations had books and the beginnings of TV and find books to be the most compelling form of storytelling.

 

People of my generation, 30s-40s, had iconic movie franchises like Star Wars and more

 

People of the younger generation, mid 20s and below, have had no real great movie franchises(that aren't based off books) but have had great storytelling in video games and video game franchises.

 

This certainly doesn't apply to everyone up and down the board and I think that books are by far superior to movies and games(although you can find superb storytelling in all) I just found it a very interesting read.

Edited by Temeluchus
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As an example which you probably will scoff at if you haven't played it, The bit in Saint's Row 3 where you skydive onto the roof of a building and Kayne West's song Power kicks off in the background is one of the coolest bits out of any recent game I've played and therefore one of the most memorable and satisfying.
I LOVED SR3. It was just ridiculously fun and entertaining. That particular sequence was the type of awesome over-the-top eye-popping action sequence that games are supposed to depict!
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I LOVED SR3. It was just ridiculously fun and entertaining. That particular sequence was the type of awesome over-the-top eye-popping action sequence that games are supposed to depict!

 

Oh, now you're trying to say that there's just one sort of thing games are supposed to be? You're just getting worse and worse here.

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I mean, for hearing about a guy that goes with a bunch of losers against a terrible foe and win in a super climatic battle, Henry V does objectively a way better job than Saving Private Ryan.

 

I'm not sure I'd consider either the 2nd Ranger Battalion or the English/Welsh Longbowmen "a bunch of losers".

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I may be old school on this, but I still think the very best medium for conveying a complex story is the novel format.

 

Movies adapted from books never do them justice, probably because books usually include the thoughts and motivations of the characters, not just what they do and say. Games struggle to convey subtleties like that too in some cases, not that they need to get to that level of depth.

Edited by Vyradder
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I may be old school on this, but I stil think the very best medium for conveying a complex story is the novel format.

 

Movies adapted from books never do them justice, probably because books usually include the thoughts and motivations of the characters, not just what they do and say. games struggle to convey subtleties like that too in some cases, not that they need to get to that level of depth.

 

The reverse is also true, though - books based on movies generally fall flat. Because different mediums are better for different stories - there is no single best medium.

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First and foremost he is talking about single player games and in a few instances fts

 

The argument simply does not fit in and online game or for arguements sake and ever changing never ending game

 

Sure it fits on a finite game, like many of the ones he mentioned, and tbh if I ever bought a game like the ones he mentioned I would be playing for action

 

Call of Duty I would never play for story. I would play for action and combat and again the game is finite, which is why the keep releasing the same game over and over again with a different title

 

People love to just have thoughtless action when they want entertainment in a video game

 

I just do not think it applies to an MMORPG genre, nor did he ever mention anything that falls into the category

 

I played hours upon end of games like Mortal Kombat-which is just mindless killing the same characters over and over again with no story and the value of a game to that was fantastic.

 

But when I play something like Everquest or SWTOR if there is no story, there is no game plain and simple

 

And when you start putting the story into the hands of the players, well you see what we have in this game, exploits, mass exchange killings in Ilum etc

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People love to just have thoughtless action when they want entertainment in a video game

 

Which is the equivalent of pulp novels and popcorn flicks. The desire for brainless entertainment in a medium doesn't preclude meaningful storytelling in the medium.

 

And no, the state of being finite or single player doesn't in any way diminish story-telling. It's actually more difficult in a non-finite area, due to the nature of plot requiring a beginning, middle, and end.

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And when you start putting the story into the hands of the players, well you see what we have in this game, exploits, mass exchange killings in Ilum etc

 

Unless the game is designed to police itself. Like EvE Online for example, in which case the entire story is completely up to you aside from some background material.

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Narrative style is an important choice, personally I've found that Bioware has become more and more heavy handed with their stories since they grew big enough to voice everything. I feel like I'm increasingly playing Bioware's character and it kind of takes me out of the game a little. They still tell a fine story, I would just like to be part of it is all.
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Narrative style is an important choice, personally I've found that Bioware has become more and more heavy handed with their stories since they grew big enough to voice everything. I feel like I'm increasingly playing Bioware's character and it kind of takes me out of the game a little. They still tell a fine story

 

The ME series is explicitly that way, to be fair. Contrast against DA:O and DA2.

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I mean, for hearing about a guy that goes with a bunch of losers against a terrible foe and win in a super climatic battle, Henry V does objectively a way better job than Saving Private Ryan.

 

How can this possibly be an objective comparison, especially when you don't define what "better job" means?

 

Maybe more relevant to this topic, which made more money?

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First and foremost he is talking about single player games and in a few instances fts

 

The argument simply does not fit in and online game or for arguements sake and ever changing never ending game

 

Sure it fits on a finite game, like many of the ones he mentioned, and tbh if I ever bought a game like the ones he mentioned I would be playing for action

 

Call of Duty I would never play for story. I would play for action and combat and again the game is finite, which is why the keep releasing the same game over and over again with a different title

 

People love to just have thoughtless action when they want entertainment in a video game

 

I just do not think it applies to an MMORPG genre, nor did he ever mention anything that falls into the category

 

I played hours upon end of games like Mortal Kombat-which is just mindless killing the same characters over and over again with no story and the value of a game to that was fantastic.

 

But when I play something like Everquest or SWTOR if there is no story, there is no game plain and simple

 

And when you start putting the story into the hands of the players, well you see what we have in this game, exploits, mass exchange killings in Ilum etc

 

In MUDs the games which predate all these fancy graphics having MMOs there was a lot of player driven 'story' if you want to call it that. They presented a world where you had no 'faction' behind you, you didn't get companions and NPC friends. There were no mini-maps. You were cast adrift in a world which you knew nothing about.

 

And yet guilds managed to form, some become PK, player killers, who hunted in large groups outside the towns, it was very risky to go alone. Then of course there came APK guilds, anti-player-killers who issued warnings and protected the main roads, like the road to the newbish leveling zone, and the main routes between towns. And then there were PPK guilds, player-killer-killers who specifically hunted down and killed player killers, they didn't just protect they avenged. There were trade guilds, crafting and repair guilds, bankers, cooks, hunters, big-game hunters, and adventurers, and this was only with a few thousand people. There was plenty of politicking and intrigue (especially around the girls naturally).

 

So don't think that online games are somehow limited in story, they have the capacity for the most expansive worlds out of all games. No matter how limited their scripted dialog is or how few NPC characters they add.

Edited by areto
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Let's assume for a minute that the author is correct and that literature is the best medium for telling a story.

 

So what?

 

This is a video game. By it's nature, the story is visual and the audience is directly involved in the story. The advantages of storytelling through literature are not relevamt.

 

Even if you try to resort back to literature for a large bulk of the storytelling, it simply does not work in this medium. Video games are image-based and the pace is much faster. Stick a wall of text in and most people will skim it or skip it entirely.

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http://www.1up.com/news/god-war-creator-calls-story

 

What I mean is that deep story telling is important in a game. But games are NOT the best medium for story.

 

Seriously? Remember when movies couldn't be a serious form of story telling?

 

Planescape Torment, Deus Ex, Neverwinter Nights Mask of the Betrayer, The Witcher 1 and 2, Knights of the Old Republic 2, Fallout 1 and 2, Fallout New Vegas.

 

I can keep going on but people who think games can't tell a good story probably think movies can't either.

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Seriously? Remember when movies couldn't be a serious form of story telling?

 

Planescape Torment, Deus Ex, Neverwinter Nights Mask of the Betrayer, The Witcher 1 and 2, Knights of the Old Republic 2, Fallout 1 and 2, Fallout New Vegas.

 

I can keep going on but people who think games can't tell a good story probably think movies can't either.

 

you didn't even mention the best ones!

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Key word : I said ''not the best''

 

For telling stories, the best medium is by far, litterature.

 

I mean, for hearing about a guy that goes with a bunch of losers against a terrible foe and win in a super climatic battle, Henry V does objectively a way better job than Saving Private Ryan.

Two things:

 

Play != Literature. Not the same thing.

 

Secondly, it's just a fact that the ideal medium depends on the story being told.

 

True, the funny thing is that Henry V was written to be the Elizabethan equivalent of a modern-day movie. The OP's preference for Shakespeare over Spielberg is fine, but the OP used a terrible example if her point was that literature is the best medium.

 

Shakespeare's plays are read more than they're watched these days, but the author's intention was the reverse. FWIW, Kenneth Branagh's version of Henry V is one of my favorite movies. :)

 

As far as the topic goes, I think games are a great story-telling medium. When story-driven games are done well, they can immerse the player as well as any movie can, and they last a lot longer. It's all about the willing suspension of disbelief, no matter what the medium; for games, part of that disbelief revolves around the player's ability to believe that what he does in between cut scenes (the stuff we know as gameplay) is meaningful or at least enjoyable.

 

If you can't convince yourself of that, then you're playing the wrong game. But to be fair, if the gameplay isn't engaging enough on its own merits, then the story is irrelevant; you'd dislike the game whether it was story-driven or not.

Edited by Invictos
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In my opinion, and this is slightly off-topic, but internet connectivity is so much worse for the experience of most gamers than the game industry evolving towards excessive story-telling. Console gaming is essentially worthless right now to me, unless you're playing an online game, and compared to an MMO, I'd just rather play the MMO. I spent a good part of 5 years just shooting people in halo, and while it's an adrenaline rush that kept me up way past decency, i just don't see the point anymore.

 

On to my main point. The prevalence of internet connectivity in this generation of consoles has led game developers to be lazy:

1) in the amount of content they put into a game, because they can milk us for 45 more dollars with the sham of 'downloadable content' (which has really just made games shorter while making us pay an excessive amount of money for a few more hours of game that would have been there in the past anyway)

 

2) in the quality of the product that is initially released, because it can be patched later. This is particularly prevalent in EA Sports titles, to single out one company who puts out horrendous products then fixes them over the course of 6 months, so that essentially the life cycle of one of their games being 'complete' is only a few months.

 

This is a real crisis in console gaming. It's the main reason I'm an MMO player now. Playing 1 console game costs ~90 bucks with all DLC, plus you're paying half the monthly fee of an MMO for the internet service. It's a complete and utter sham to be a console gamer in this day and age.

 

end slightly related rant.

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Thinking back on games I have played over the years, almost every game--aside from pure action/arcade games--tells a story. The better the stories, the more I like the games. RPGs have been heavily story-based for decades. Adventure games. Even space combat games like Wing Commander and the X-Wing/TIE-Fighter games.

 

Can you imagine Wing Commander as a straight up shooter without the storyline? It would be a mere shadow of the game people came to know and love.

 

Some games don't need story because the gameplay forms the story. Simulations are an example, or wargames. Most games really do need story to some degree, whether it be more of a loose framework to give meaning and reason to the gameplay, or if it is more involved like Bioware games. Some games have clearly suffered from story because they try to tell too much story when little is needed, and they sacrifice gameplay in order to do it. Look at single player games that are often so short nowadays--it's because they try to do so much storytelling and can'tr produce enough of it to make the game a reasonable length, and as a result you have a 30 hour game.

 

The bottom line is that you need to be smart about how you tell stories, and it needs to be balanced with overall gameplay. Go play those old Tex Murphy games and then tell me that video games and cinematics don't work well together.

Edited by ptwonline
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You guys gotta watch the embedded video of the actual talk. The article text goes off on tangents and isn't nearly as detailed.

 

He's primarily taking about games like Heavy Rain, LA Noire, and ... everything Bioware has ever made.

 

I'm a huge fan of RPGs, and especially Bioware, but I think he's got a valid point. Games aren't movies and shouldn't try to shoe-horn cinematic elements into their content.

 

Bioware is very good at top down storytelling, but they're even better at masking what they're doing (at least, they used to be). Games like KOTOR and DA:O are pretty damn clever at hiding just how rigid and linear they really are.

 

Thanks for the link, OP. That was a great watch & read.

Edited by Dayfax
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