Healing balance pls

[Beergogglez]

Yeah, nerf sorc. Bring it in line with the other 2 healers pls. You stated that Sorcs can run out of energy, but hey ..look they spam aoe heals to hearts content and never run out. thanks.

[Mazzeric]

Have you considered that maybe the other healer specs are just underpowered?

[_droider_]

Not so much underpowered, but misused. BG Merc is fine as long as the person behind the keys uses all the tools available to them; most importantly, SCG and TSO. All things equal, no other class beats BG tank healing.

[Ariesen]

before you ask for a nerf to a class, please play that class and see its upsides and downsides. Also consider, asking for a healing nerf, is going to make less people play said healers, which means there are going to be fewer healers. On a given night, what are most people asking for in general on your server? dps, heals, or tanks? If its dps, what server do you play on? because when/if they do nerf Sorc/Sages, I'm re-rolling to your server so I can dps.

 

If, like most servers, its healers, you really want to have less people playing healers? Think things through before you spout off. You'll have a better, easier life. Both in game and in real life.

[bobudo]

Not so much underpowered, but misused. BG Merc is fine as long as the person behind the keys uses all the tools available to them; most importantly, SCG and TSO. All things equal, no other class beats BG tank healing.

 

No, underpowered.

 

We know the math on these things (RuQu, I SUMMON YOU!). We know that a "BG Merc" is not fine; that player skill is not adequately rewarded behind a Scoundrel/Mercenary/Commando/Operative; that the people you've seen play a Mercenary to such skill that you think they are fine would absolutely dominate if they rerolled Sorcerer/Sage.

 

We know these things are true; that you wish to believe otherwise only demonstrates ignorance of the issue.

[PhoenixMatrix]

Sorc/Sage AOE heal not having a target limit is silly. All the other AOE heals do. (I think there's similar issues with force quake vs flyby and mortar volley? Not sure).

 

So against one to 4 target, compared to scoudrel AOE, it heals like 15-20% more. Against 8 target, or 16 targets....holy crap.

 

Once you fix that, then the differences are minor, mainly small minor tweaking and fixing the balance of utility skills.

[bobudo]

Sorc/Sage AOE heal not having a target limit is silly. All the other AOE heals do. (I think there's similar issues with force quake vs flyby and mortar volley? Not sure).

 

So against one to 4 target, compared to scoudrel AOE, it heals like 15-20% more. Against 8 target, or 16 targets....holy crap.

 

Once you fix that, then the differences are minor, mainly small minor tweaking and fixing the balance of utility skills.

 

I think this post by RuQu is what you're looking for: source

 

Now, obviously, I was in no way arguing that Sage AoE is not awesome. I do think when considering how to boost the other two classes AoE, we need to keep the costs and limits of it under consideration.

 

I was going to try and argue in favor of the splash mechanic (because it seems cool to me), but I figured we should probably bring our friend Math to the table and get his opinion, before I started requiring increased energy expenditure and GCD usage to make Scoundrel/Commando AoE compete with Sage.

 

Let's make sure we all agree on the details of the abilities:

 

Sage:

Salvation

Cost 100 Force (out of 500/600 max)

Cooldown 15s

Cast Time 2s

Radius: 8m

Player Limit (no limit)

HoT (10s, 1s tick rate)

Average Base Heal: 134.615

Coefficient: 0.376

 

Commando:

Kolto Bomb

Cost 2 Ammo (out of 12, max regen zone is 8-12)

Cooldown 6s

Cast Time Instant

Radius 8m

Player Limit 3

Initial Heal, applies 5% healing buff (15s). During SCC, applies 10% DR Shield (15s)

Average Base Heal: 382.59

Coefficient: 1.08

 

Scoundrel:

Kolto Cloud

Cost 30 Energy (out of 100, max regen zone is 60-100)

Cooldown 12s

Cast Time Instant

Radius 10m

Player Limit 4

HoT only (15s, 3s tick rate)

Average Base Heal 132.032

Coefficient 0.386

 

The coefficients are multiplied by your Bonus Healing, which, assuming that is equal between classes in given gear, gives a sense of how well they scale. Coefficients on HoTs are always small, you need to multiply them by the number of ticks to compare to a non-HoT.

 

For the sake of comparison, let's look at a 15 second window. KC and Salv have 12 second cooldowns, so they can be cast a second time at t=12, but KC won't be because it lasts 15s and doesn't stack. Salv will be, but only the first 3 ticks of the second heal will be considered. KB will be tossed 3 times, at t=0, t=6, and t=12. At each time we will examine a case of 3 , 4, 8, 16 players. I currently have ~410 Bonus Healing, so that is the number I will use.

 

First, lets compare costs. Salv and KB both cost 16.6% of max resources, compared to 30% for KC. The more forgiving regen of Commandos probably renders the EC of KB to be slightly cheaper than Salv.

 

KB and KC are both instant, therefore take 1.5s fixed time to cast, and can be cast on the run. Salv is 2s, but with the levels of Alacrity on this tier of gear that is easily down to around 1.6s, although still requires them to stand still.

 

So far we have seen that Commandos have the most limited AoE, Scoundrels have the most expensive, and Sages must stand still for 1.6-2 seconds. What are the returns for these tradeoffs?

 

Salvation: Average Heal per person per tick = 134.615 + 0.376*410 = 288.775

Kolto Bomb: Average Heal per person = 382.59 +1.08*410 = 825.39 (866.66 on casts 2 and 3)

Kolto Cloud: Average Heal per person per tick = 132.032 + 0.386*410 = 290.292

 

Over 15 seconds:

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB: 7676.13 / -------------------------------------

KC: 4354.38 / 5805.84 / ---------------------------

Salv: 12994.88 / 17326.5 / 34653 / 69306

 

Now, this 15s time window is not necessarily fair to the Sage, because it requires a second cast that gets clipped. We can look at it different ways. Compare a single cast:

 

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB (cost 16%): 2476.17 / ----------/-------------/--------------

KC (cost 30%): 4354.38 / 5805.84 / -------------/--------------

Sa (cost 16%): 8663.25 / 11551 / 23102 / 46204

 

Since those are very different time windows (1 cast,instantly applied, 15s HoT, 10s HoT) we can look at a fight window where, over some period, 30s of total AoE healing are needed. That is exactly 5 KB, 2 KC, or 3 Salv.

 

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB : 12380.85 / ----------/-------------/--------------

KC : 8708.76 / 11611.68 / -------------/--------------

Sa : 25989.75 / 34653 / 69306 / 138612

 

For nearly double the resource cost, Scoundrels have to hit all 4 targets to heal for the same amount as Troopers heal 3 targets, which also means the Troopers 3 players will be at higher health percentages (although that 4th guy is screwed). In a vacuum that trade-off would seem fair, if they were the same price. one more target for less healing per target is a debate where both sides might envy the other, and if that's not how we define balance in an MMO, I don't know what is.

 

However, this comparison is not existing in a vacuum, and there is another party present, with the same resource cost and nearly the same cast time as the Commando....the Sage. The price that the Sage pays is not being able to move while casting the AoE, for 1.6-2s depending on Alacrity values. The return on investment for that lack of mobility: they heal 3 targets for double what a Commando can do, 4 targets for 3 times what a Scoundrel can do, and they can go on to do an amazing 4620HPS if their 16 man Op all groups up for AoE, compared to a max AoE HPS of 412 for a Commando and 387.056 for a Scoundrel.

 

This is the power of a lack of Player Limits, and many encounters are balanced around having this much AoE capability. With the limits in place, there is simply no way a Commando or Scoundrel can match that power. This is not a call to nerf Sages. Fights are designed assuming an Ops group has this capability. Raise the others up so they can compete. Reduce KC cost to 15 Energy, and remove player limits from KC and KB.

 

 

I disagree with your last statement. Even though the target cap goes a long way towards making us unviable in current PvE content, the boring mechanics of Operative/Scoundrel (3 button healing) and lack of flexibility and utility will continue harming the class even after the AoE problems are fixed.

[PhoenixMatrix]

I think this post by RuQu is what you're looking for: source

 

 

 

 

I disagree with your last statement. Even though the target cap goes a long way towards making us unviable in current PvE content, the boring mechanics of Operative/Scoundrel (3 button healing) and lack of flexibility and utility will continue harming the class even after the AoE problems are fixed.

 

What i hate with math like that, is that no matter how much effort people put in them, they miss some factors. The upper hand healing boost, the PvP set bonus, the very involved energy regeneration mechanics (especially for smugglers, since they have so many and the curve when energy goes low make it more complex even), stuff like force armor being castable by nukers, the speed at which the regen ticks (ticking too fast means someone may get topped off too quickly, thus wasting ticks), all the mechanics that force people to run around like chickens (stay in the circle for giggles with 2 nightmade mode lightning balls coming...).

 

No matter how you look at it though, the sage AOE is better. Way better. Way way better. But we could say that just eyeballing with more precision than all the math in that post will, since its inaccurate and missing too many things. Thats why that has to be balanced first. Then the lack of utility (especially the lack of buffs... I'd personally vote for offensive bonuses like boosting crit rating or damage after being hit by kolto pack. That would be cool). Then the actual heal numbers can be tweaked as a distant third.

[bobudo]

Thats why that has to be balanced first. Then the lack of utility (especially the lack of buffs... I'd personally vote for offensive bonuses like boosting crit rating or damage after being hit by kolto pack. That would be cool). Then the actual heal numbers can be tweaked as a distant third.

 

I agree, and I double agree with the bold.