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Stealth is too much an advantage in PvP


telmeoneagain

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whats funny is Ops vs Ops its basicly who stun the first....even if you dot the other ops....toxic scan remove it EVERYTIME. so its really easy to slip aways from our own class.

 

More like who gets lucky with crits and times their heal/defensive screen best, the stuns are easy to survive in those fights, its the dots+sucker punch matches that follow.

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Only stupid thing IMO is that http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/1054/avoidance_training/ removes everything including bleeds/internal damage. Who knows if it's a bug... you would think when it says "removes all hostile removable effects" that would imply that there are some irremovable effects.

 

This also gives a 1min cooldown (evasion, not vanish), the ability to really screw up the DPS of builds that depend on dots with a cooldown.

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Stealth itself isn't necessarily OP (I think it is bad design though and purely a PvE construct that should never have made it's way into PvP)

 

Being able to vanish out of a bad situation and escape death..is OP though and allows some players to avert all risk in confrontation.

 

Stealth should be disabled when combat is entered.(like a lot of other MMOs).

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Only stupid thing IMO is that http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/1054/avoidance_training/ removes everything including bleeds/internal damage. Who knows if it's a bug... you would think when it says "removes all hostile removable effects" that would imply that there are some irremovable effects.

 

This also gives a 1min cooldown (evasion, not vanish), the ability to really screw up the DPS of builds that depend on dots with a cooldown.

 

if it is like dodge it is basically a ****** snare break, thats it, might be worded incorrectly but I doubt it is a second triage.

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if it is like dodge it is basically a ****** snare break, thats it, might be worded incorrectly but I doubt it is a second triage.

 

I'm not speculating, I have 50 scoundrel and have tested mirror abilities dueling my 50 shadow friend. It removes all DoTs that I have tested, force and tech, including bleeds/internal damage. You can also vanish/evasion in the same GCD; that part is working as intended I'm sure, but I'm not sure that the bleeds should be cleansed. Basically no form of dot is going to prevent a stealther from stealthing in combat... that's sort of a foreign concept to me.

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Stealth itself isn't necessarily OP (I think it is bad design though and purely a PvE construct that should never have made it's way into PvP)

 

Being able to vanish out of a bad situation and escape death..is OP though and allows some players to avert all risk in confrontation.

 

Stealth should be disabled when combat is entered.(like a lot of other MMOs).

 

As long as you turn off healing, and any abilites that make a tank a tank..

 

Oh yea.. and no more 30m blaster and rocket abilities as well..

 

Hmm, since we're totally ruining this *********** game.. why don't we take out the lightsabers and replace them with particle wood placeholders instead with pvc pipe handles..

 

I'm down.. YOU!?

 

EDIT: Are people just blind to the basic FACTS of what an ASSASSIN (Stealth) class is? I have yet to hear anyone give a discription of an Assassin and how they expect one to perform in battle...

 

Still waiting.. and will never get the answer.. Because Assassins are "exactly" what they are in SWTOR..

Edited by Opapanax
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Everytime I read one of these cry posts about stealth I think to myself........here's a guy who's entire PvP strategy is to stay outside picking off as many easy kills as he can and got his *** busted by a stealther because his 3 button rotation isn't really adequate for an actual PvP encounter.
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I'm not speculating, I have 50 scoundrel and have tested mirror abilities dueling my 50 shadow friend. It removes all DoTs that I have tested, force and tech, including bleeds/internal damage. You can also vanish/evasion in the same GCD; that part is working as intended I'm sure, but I'm not sure that the bleeds should be cleansed. Basically no form of dot is going to prevent a stealther from stealthing in combat... that's sort of a foreign concept to me.

 

Just tested it myself, it indeed does remove those effects, small consolation is due I suppose.

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As long as you turn off healing, and any abilites that make a tank a tank..

 

Oh yea.. and no more 30m blaster and rocket abilities as well..

 

Hmm, since we're totally ruining this *********** game.. why don't we take out the lightsabers and replace them with particle wood placeholders instead with pvc pipe handles..

 

I'm down.. YOU!?

 

EDIT: Are people just blind to the basic FACTS of what an ASSASSIN (Stealth) class is? I have yet to hear anyone give a discription of an Assassin and how they expect one to perform in battle...

 

Still waiting.. and will never get the answer.. Because Assassins are "exactly" what they are in SWTOR..

 

None of what you mentioned is analogous to stealthing out of trouble.

 

The above mentioned situations dont remove those players entirely and totally from harm.

 

When you disappear out of combat (while under the condition of combat) your enemy can no longer attack you and you can not be targeted. The skills above afford no such luxury to the players using them.

 

I have seen many assassin types in various MMOs stealth being disabled while in combat is pretty common actually.

Edited by Doxxs
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For people to understand MMORPGs they need to understand basic RPG which is based on DnD and pen and paper games.

 

You have the usual classes which serve their purpose:

 

Warriors: The heavy armor sword wielding soldier who jumps directly into the fight, can survive the fight, and stays in there until he dies

 

Mage: Stays out of range, or on highground to avoid being kiled, wearing nothing but robes, they would die almost instantly.

 

Rogue: Uses stealth to get close to a target, since they are melee, in addition, they rely on heavy damage to "assassinate" targets.

 

Different form of classes appear but they all follow one rule:

 

The more damage the less survivability/ The More survivability the less damage

 

Example:

 

An archer is a rogue class. It has been granted the ability of superior range as its utility to survive, does not have stealth, and in addition also relies on high damage low survivability.

 

A paladin is a warrior class with mage assets. It has been granted superior survivability but has low damage.

 

Rogue > Mage

Mage > Warrior

Warrior > Rogue

 

A Rogue cant kill a warrior because of the survivability of the warrior. it would be equal to fighting a soldier in iron armor and a broadsword not wearing anything else than a dagger.

 

A Mage cant kill a rogue because of the lack of survivability from the mage. The mage relies on the ability to stay far away whilst the rogue relies on close combat: but because the rogue is in control of when they enter combat, they usually have the upper hand.

 

A Warrior cant kill a Mage because of the lack of survivability. Having low mobility due to the heavy armor and no defence against magic, the warrior will have a hard time against this class.

 

And thus a trinity is formed.

 

Other form of trinities:

 

Tank > Dps

Dps > Healer

Healer > Tank

 

But this example is really based on the previous example as the Tank = warrior, Healer = Mage and Dps = Rogue.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The Operative/Scoundrel was a class with Almost No survivability but in addition had huge damage to support it. Now with the nerf we have low to medium damage followed by zero to low survivability.

 

 

Why are stealth classers picked on in MMORPGs? Because people base them on 1v1 terms whilst MMORPGs are in general based on RvR (Raid vs Raid). The idea of MMORPG is that you fight with friends in big battles.

 

The idea of a warrior is to stay in the middle of a battle, be able to survive a beating whilst giving a beating themselves.

 

The idea of a Rogue is to be able to remove 1 of the countless hundreds of targets that are in a RvR in hopes of changing the battle on the field.

 

If a deadly mage is on a hilltop raining fire on everyone, its a Rogues job to remove that mage before the warriors die.

 

So why is this a problem in SWTOR? Because people only care about themselves, not the big picture. They are too busy QQing about why they instantly died. Who to blame? Blizzard. World of Warcraft is the first MMORPG to go away from the oldschool RvR system and insted focus 1v1 balance, thus every current MMORPG'er believe that a Rogue class should not excist.

 

So why is a rogue class needed? Because otherwise you have your immortal healer running around laughing at everyone unless he gets targeted by 4+.

 

The whole idea of a rogue class is to have a character who lurks in the shadows and only strikes when needed. Its a tactical class and it is needed in the general balance of classes and combinations in a multiplayer game.

Edited by Zlashie
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For people to understand MMORPGs they need to understand basic RPG which is based on DnD and pen and paper games.

 

You have the usual classes which serve their purpose:

 

Warriors: The heavy armor sword wielding soldier who jumps directly into the fight, can survive the fight, and stays in there until he dies

 

Mage: Stays out of range, or on highground to avoid being kiled, wearing nothing but robes, they would die almost instantly.

 

Rogue: Uses stealth to get close to a target, since they are melee, in addition, they rely on heavy damage to "assassinate" targets.

 

Different form of classes appear but they all follow one rule:

 

The more damage the less survivability/ The More survivability the less damage

 

Example:

 

An archer is a rogue class. It has been granted the ability of superior range as its utility to survive, does not have stealth, and in addition also relies on high damage low survivability.

 

A paladin is a warrior class with mage assets. It has been granted superior survivability but has low damage.

 

The Operative/Scoundrel was a class with Almost No survivability but in addition had huge damage to support it. Now with the nerf we have low to medium damage followed by zero to low survivability.

 

 

Why are stealth classers picked on in MMORPGs? Because people base them on 1v1 terms whilst MMORPGs are in general based on RvR (Raid vs Raid). The idea of MMORPG is that you fight with friends in big battles.

 

The idea of a warrior is to stay in the middle of a battle, be able to survive a beating whilst giving a beating themselves.

 

The idea of a Rogue is to be able to remove 1 of the countless hundreds of targets that are in a RvR in hopes of changing the battle on the field.

 

If a deadly mage is on a hilltop raining fire on everyone, its a Rogues job to remove that mage before the warriors die.

 

So why is this a problem in SWTOR? Because people only care about themselves, not the big picture. They are too busy QQing about why they instantly died. Who to blame? Blizzard. World of Warcraft is the first MMORPG to go away from the oldschool RvR system and insted focus 1v1 balance, thus every current MMORPG'er believe that a Rogue class should not excist.

 

So why is a rogue class needed? Because otherwise you have your immortal healer running around laughing at everyone unless he gets targeted by 4+.

 

The whole idea of a rogue class is to have a character who lurks in the shadows and only strikes when needed. Its a tactical class and it is needed in the general balance of classes and combinations in a multiplayer game.

 

The idea of being in stealth isn't the issue..being able to ambush out of stealth helps balance healers okay.

 

Stealthing while in combat to escape death is the real issue here...it simply negates any risk.

Most MMOs or RPGs for that matter make stealth disable while in combat. Some newer MMOS have not followed this model and I think thats a bad design.

Edited by Doxxs
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The idea of being in stealth isn't the issue..being able to ambush out of stealth helps balance healers okay.

 

Stealthing while in combat to escape death is the real issue here...it simply negates any risk.

Most MMOs or RPGs for that matter make stealth disable while in combat. Some newer MMOS have not followed this model and I think thats a bad design.

 

We cant stealth in combat.

 

We can vanish into stealth which means we jump out of combat.

 

Its a 3min (2 if talented, IIRC) cooldown.

 

In addition every class and their mothers dog has an AoE ability which is next to instant.

 

So if you let a target run away in stealth it means your reactiontiming was too slow.

 

 

Now read the above example I gave you and it should be clear to you that the reason why Rogue classes has vanish is becaue they cant survive a fight otherwise. Its the whole idea of the class. It would be equal to removing the class itself.

 

What you are asking for is a freekill once you survived the opener of rogue classes.

 

It was the exact same in Rift, World of Warcraft and Everquest AFAIK so I dont know which games you are talking about.

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has anyone else been killed by an operative coming out of stealth and stunning you then killing you in less that 5 seconds? Does anyone else think that stealth should only be given to healers to get out of trouble?

 

I am interested in what others think.

 

The most ridiculous post I've ever seen. Moderators need to close these threads for lack of common sense. Seriously....give healers...HEALERS....an escape stealth. Come on...because bubbles/stuns/knockbacks/insta hots/instaheals/sprints/slows/interrupts (all this at range mind you) arent' enough.

 

/facepalm

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The most ridiculous post I've ever seen. Moderators need to close these threads for lack of common sense. Seriously....give healers...HEALERS....an escape stealth. Come on...because bubbles/stuns/knockbacks/insta hots/instaheals/sprints/slows/interrupts (all this at range mind you) arent' enough.

 

/facepalm

 

He also wrote less then 5 seconds. 5 seconds = 3 abilities within GCD.

 

My Fully rakata geared scrapper crits around 3.2k-4k with Shoot First

2.3k-3.1k with backblast and 2.2k-3k with blaster whip. this is if the abilities crit which only happens around 40% of the time. The chance of all 3 abilities critting is quite low. And also I need to be on a squishy target to actually deal damage.

 

So this means that rakata geared operatives are OP against newly dinged squishy healers, because I dont believe any good geared people could run around with only 10k health :rolleyes:

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None of what you mentioned is analogous to stealthing out of trouble.

 

The above mentioned situations dont remove those players entirely and totally from harm.

 

When you disappear out of combat (while under the condition of combat) your enemy can no longer attack you and you can not be targeted. The skills above afford no such luxury to the players using them.

 

I have seen many assassin types in various MMOs stealth being disabled while in combat is pretty common actually.

 

Uh no... Please stop falsying information to the people. Whatever you just said about stealth before the part about not being in a particular game you've played makes no sense to me.

 

YOU CAN NOT USE STEALTH WHILE IN COMBAT, YOU HAVE TO USE AN ACTUAL SKILL "FORCE CLOAK" THATS ON A 2-3 min COOLDOWN TO VANISH WHILE IN COMBAT. STEALTH IS ON A GLOBAL COOLDOWN WHEN OUT OF COMBAT. BOTH ARE WORKING AS INTENDED

 

Stealth is stealth, you vanish from combat. You're gone from the battlefield, unless AOE'd before you actually get away from people. I don't get what the OP is complaining about or what part his argument you are even trying to defend.

 

I don't see any game that has a specific class that uses stealth, disabling stealth in PvP combat. That would completely defeat the purpose of the class. Not to mention in SWTOR how you would then be taking a good 4-5 skills and nullifying them.

 

What he suggest is not going to happen. Stealth will remain in PvP if they change that Bioware might as well go ahead and hang any type of credibility as regards to PvP up. They will be a laughing stock..

 

The point in taking away those abilities from those classes is to show how utterly stupid it would be to do so. It comes with the territory of the class. You crazies need to L2RPG

Edited by Opapanax
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Okay, this is all people need to understand.

 

Stealth is NOT usuable while in combat on 1 GCD...

 

Stealth is NOT usuable while in combat on 1 GCD...

 

Stealth is NOT usuable while in combat on 1 GCD...

 

Did you'll get that?

 

"Force Cloak" is on a 2 - 3 Minute Cooldown w/ skills and is usuable in combat....

 

"Force Cloak" is on a 2 - 3 Minute Cooldown w/ skills and is usuable in combat....

 

"Force Cloak" is on a 2 - 3 Minute Cooldown w/ skills and is usuable in combat....

 

Did you'll get the second part?

THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS

 

NOTE: This is Sith Assassin / Shadows

Edited by Opapanax
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My problem with stealth or whatever CDs stealth classes have that drops DOTs/damage whatever, is that the cooldowns are too short.

 

A friend and I were speedering through Ilum doing PVE dailies. We see a red name so we jump on him. He gets down to 25%, stealth! He's gone.

 

30 seconds later he pops out of stealth and attacks. We get him down to 25%, stealth! He's gone.

 

30 seconds later he pops out of stealth and attacks. We get him down to 25%, stealth! He's gone.

 

The stealth/cleanse/immunity skill needs about a 4-5 mins CD. It's a good skill to have when it's needed in a pinch, but it won't allow stealthers to be immune to world PVP.

 

really dude? your mad you couldn't get a kill trying to double team someone?

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After the nerf I can't believe people still cry about ops/scoundrels. Just pvp for like 2 hours and get some expertise, problem solved. I'm heal spec scoundrel so I have to deal with ops all the time, and let me tell you unless you are running around in the worst possible gear (like seriously you intentionally just pick up the worst gear you can find) or are below 50% hp with no cd's up they will not kill you. There is no arguing the point, they absolutely won't kill you unless you're already badly damaged. If you're alone just stun them/snare/knock back/blind any cc or snare you have and just run away. They have no gap closers whatsoever. Since I've gotten over 10% expertise I almost feel sorry for them when they try to gank me, and as you go past 10% it gets even more laughable. Edited by CodyLundeen
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