Meira_Arirai Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I did Doomsday a couple of nights ago, and noticed that the Emperor looked different from the last, ill-fated time I met him. At the end of Act II he was this super-gnarly gray-skinned, no-eyed guy who looked like his brain was exposed to air. At the end of Act III, he just looked like your standard veiny, yellow-eyed dark-side-using human. I realize that the Emperor kind of transcends the regular need for a body and can swap those out at will, or change his appearance without a lot of trouble. I'm wondering if there was anything significant about the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Argos Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 There's still a lot of debate going on about this, mostly centered on whether or not the Emperor you kill is in fact the "true" Emperor's body. So here's a little timeline of events, which I'm approximating. At the end of Act II, the Emperor's face was masked when he defeated you and the other Masters. He then takes control of all of your bodies and you serve as a Sith for some time. You escape with the aid of Orgus Din's spirit and Lord Scourge. The Sith Warrior's master, Darth Baras, claims the title of Emperor's Voice, so the Warrior finds the Emperor's true Voice on Voss and kills him during Sith Warrior Act III. The Emperor no longer has a Voice as of this moment. (For clarity's sake, the Emperor's Voice is a being into whose body the Emperor infuses his own essence through a ritual, using them as a conduit and granting them his own power.) The Jedi Knight attacks and defeats the "Emperor" on Dromund Kaas (this is the debatable Emperor, more on this later) The Sith Warrior receives mail from the Emperor's Hand stating that the Jedi Knight defeated the Emperor's new Voice, which has weakened the Emperor, who is now working to regain and consolidate his power. So if the Sith are to be taken at their word, the Knight actually killed a (basically) decoy Emperor, one who had much of the Emperor's power, but who wasn't the true body. Another school of thought holds that the Emperor's Hand are attempting a cover-up, lying to keep their power and influence even though the Emperor's true body was defeated. I believe (and this is just me, mind you) that the Emperor at the end of Act II was the true Emperor, who possessed you, and that the Emperor seen at the end of Act III was actually his new Voice, meaning that the Knight severely weakened him, but failed to kill him completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranadiel_Marius Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 A fact that was left out in the previous post is that the Hand of the Emperor tells the SW that the Emperor has been outside of the known galaxy since around the time fo the treaty of Coruscant and is not around to tell the Dark Council that Baras is a false voice. because of this fact. If that is taken as true, and I see no compelling reason not to, that would mean that the "Emperor" at the end of Act 2 couldn't be the Emperor's true body. Based off of soem other dialogue, I am inclined to believe that the body was the Voice of the Emperor in his Voss body although that is impossible to prove/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meira_Arirai Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 I agree that, with the Emperor's Children still hearing his voice, even if it's in a confused, disorganized state, it's unlikely that the Emperor was killed off for real. The idea that the Sith Emperor is basically Sauron-like in that he transcends the need for or tie to a single physical manifestation has interesting implications for the OT era, come to think of it. I seemed to remember something about there being two known "Voices" in the timeline in addition to the pretender Baras, a human and a Voss, and wondered if that accounted for the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxetius Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I thought it was obvious. Act 2 was the real deal. Act 3 was a host body. Everything points to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanshan Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I thought it was obvious. Act 2 was the real deal. Act 3 was a host body. Everything points to this. No. 5char. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Argos Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I had forgotten the Emperor's Hand mentioned that the Emperor was gone, this would definitely point towards Act II not being the "true" Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediArchives Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) First, that is a mask he's wearing at the end of Act II...a mask you can see other Sith wearing, most notably at least 1 of the Dread Lords. Second, it is never stated the Emperor "is outside the known- Galaxy". Also note that the Emperor at the end of Act II is wearing the exact same robes as in Act III. Only thing different is that he is no longer wearing a mask. Also, people that claim neither were the Emperor and both were in fact Voices ignore Lord Scourge and his sole purpose in TOR, completely. At least the first would have had to have been the real Emperor...and if the second was a Voice, Scourge would have had to have not seen the Emperor's face for decades. Edited February 17, 2012 by JediArchives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranadiel_Marius Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Second, it is never stated the Emperor "is outside the known- Galaxy". Yes it is. You should play the SW story some time. A direct quote from Servant One during the conversation with him on Quesh: Since the Treaty of Coruscant, the Emperor has withdrawn from the known galaxy, preparing for a great calling. Baras learned of this and now claims the Emperor speaks through him. Also note that the Emperor at the end of Act II is wearing the exact same robes as in Act III. Only thing different is that he is no longer wearing a mask. Which really shows nothing other than the Emperor's sense of fashion doesn't improve between chapters 2 and 3. Also, people that claim neither were the Emperor and both were in fact Voices ignore Lord Scourge and his sole purpose in TOR, completely. At least the first would have had to have been the real Emperor...and if the second was a Voice, Scourge would have had to have not seen the Emperor's face for decades. Scourge's sole purpose in TOR is to tell the JK about the Emperor's plans. That doesn't require him to actually know who the Emperor is. And Scourge never actually sees the face of the Emperor in Chapter 3. He senses the Emperor, but he is never actually in the same room to see what it is that the JK actually fought. Edit: Corrected the location of the conversation with Servant One. And I'm adding in a to a video that has the line I quoted in it because I know how internet arguments go. Line recitation begins around 8:28. Edited February 17, 2012 by Ranadiel_Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediArchives Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Yes it is. You should play the SW story some time. A direct quote from Servant One during the conversation with him on Quesh: Well, seeing as how I have played TOR since July, and likely completed the Warrior story long before you... Since the Treaty of Coruscant, the Emperor has withdrawn from the known galaxy, preparing for a great calling. Baras learned of this and now claims the Emperor speaks through him. So by withdrawing from the known galaxy, that means he's outside of the galaxy? No...that is an incredible leap, not sure how you wound up there. He has been in seclusion from the galaxy...withdrawing to...seclusion. Inside that fortress that's cloaked and few even know exists? It could even mean he's somewhere in the unknown galaxy..you know, like the Unkown Regions? Which really shows nothing other than the Emperor's sense of fashion doesn't improve between chapters 2 and 3. Not everything is directed at you. Try reading other people's posts. S Scourge's sole purpose in TOR is to tell the JK about the Emperor's plans. That doesn't require him to actually know who the Emperor is. And Scourge never actually sees the face of the Emperor in Chapter 3. He senses the Emperor, but he is never actually in the same room to see what it is that the JK actually fought. You should try reading Revan sometime. Continue to ignore Scourge's single purpose that he has had 300 years to prepare for, it doesn't help your argument much. Such reveals a glaring plot hole. You must have an incredibly low opinion of Bioware's writing. To each their own, I suppose. On another note, I wanted people to be aware that the letter never states the Emperor is outside the galaxy. Your comment made this fuzzy. Nothing supports this. Edited February 17, 2012 by JediArchives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girdeux Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Well, seeing as how I have played TOR since July, and likely completed the Warrior story long before you... So by withdrawing from the known galaxy, that means he's outside of the galaxy? No...that is an incredible leap, not sure how you wound up there. He has been in seclusion from the galaxy...withdrawing to...seclusion. Inside that fortress that's cloaked and few even know exists? It could even mean he's somewhere in the unknown galaxy..you know, like the Unkown Regions? Not everything is directed at you. Try reading other people's posts. S You should try reading Revan sometime. Continue to ignore Scourge's single purpose that he has had 300 years to prepare for, it doesn't help your argument much. Such reveals a glaring plot hole. You must have an incredibly low opinion of Bioware's writing. To each their own, I suppose. On another note, I wanted people to be aware that the letter never states the Emperor is outside the galaxy. Your comment made this fuzzy. Nothing supports this. Except the Emperors hands tell you later the Imperial guards have moved the emperors body, and that the JK only defeated the true voice. This thread will end up as the other thread where you convinced nobody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 There's still a lot of debate going on about this, mostly centered on whether or not the Emperor you kill is in fact the "true" Emperor's body. So here's a little timeline of events, which I'm approximating. At the end of Act II, the Emperor's face was masked when he defeated you and the other Masters. He then takes control of all of your bodies and you serve as a Sith for some time. You escape with the aid of Orgus Din's spirit and Lord Scourge. The Sith Warrior's master, Darth Baras, claims the title of Emperor's Voice, so the Warrior finds the Emperor's true Voice on Voss and kills him during Sith Warrior Act III. The Emperor no longer has a Voice as of this moment. (For clarity's sake, the Emperor's Voice is a being into whose body the Emperor infuses his own essence through a ritual, using them as a conduit and granting them his own power.) The Jedi Knight attacks and defeats the "Emperor" on Dromund Kaas (this is the debatable Emperor, more on this later) The Sith Warrior receives mail from the Emperor's Hand stating that the Jedi Knight defeated the Emperor's new Voice, which has weakened the Emperor, who is now working to regain and consolidate his power. So if the Sith are to be taken at their word, the Knight actually killed a (basically) decoy Emperor, one who had much of the Emperor's power, but who wasn't the true body. Another school of thought holds that the Emperor's Hand are attempting a cover-up, lying to keep their power and influence even though the Emperor's true body was defeated. I believe (and this is just me, mind you) that the Emperor at the end of Act II was the true Emperor, who possessed you, and that the Emperor seen at the end of Act III was actually his new Voice, meaning that the Knight severely weakened him, but failed to kill him completely. I think the Emprah is no longer a being tied to one body. I believe that his power is so great that he "spreads" himself across multiple hosts, so that the bodies have a chance of withstanding his darkness without failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesHuttfield Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I think the Emprah is no longer a being tied to one body. I believe that his power is so great that he "spreads" himself across multiple hosts, so that the bodies have a chance of withstanding his darkness without failing. I think you're thinking about Palpatine mate , at least that's what he did after Vader killed him on the 2nd Death Star. He made multiple clones so that he may sustain the enormous dark side energies that were empowering , but also disintegrating him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I think you're thinking about Palpatine mate , at least that's what he did after Vader killed him on the 2nd Death Star. He made multiple clones so that he may sustain the enormous dark side energies that were empowering , but also disintegrating him. Raw power-wise, ToR Emperor could give Palps a run for his money - it's in the JK story, won't give any spoilers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranadiel_Marius Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 So by withdrawing from the known galaxy, that means he's outside of the galaxy? No...that is an incredible leap, not sure how you wound up there. He has been in seclusion from the galaxy...withdrawing to...seclusion. Inside that fortress that's cloaked and few even know exists? It could even mean he's somewhere in the unknown galaxy..you know, like the Unkown Regions? I never said he was outside of the galaxy and as far as I can tell no one else in the thread has ever made that claim. I think it is quite likely that the Emperor is in some portion of the galaxy that is off of normal hyperspace routes probably with ancient Sith ruins. Heck it could be his home planet. The importnat things about what Servant One says and the context in which he says it though isn't so much the actual location where the Emperor is but that the Emperor is not able to contact the Dark Council from where he is, he has been where ever he is since the Treaty of Coruscant, and he is going to be there for the immediate future. A space station orbiting DK hardly creates a situation where the Emperor is unable to contact the Dark Council. You should try reading Revan sometime. Continue to ignore Scourge's single purpose that he has had 300 years to prepare for, it doesn't help your argument much. Such reveals a glaring plot hole. You must have an incredibly low opinion of Bioware's writing. To each their own, I suppose. Actually I just have an incredibly low opinion of Scourge, but if we are going to be assigning opinions to each other, you must also have an incredibly low opinion of Bioware's writing. If the Emperor has been on a space station floating around DK, the entirity of Chapter 3 for the Sith Warrior doesn't work. If the Emperor can take a quick shuttle ride back into the Empire, then Baras should have been labeled a traitor pretty much the moment he sealed the Voice on Voss. Baras should not have been able to make his power play if the Empire was within easy travel distance for the Emperor. And the reason made the power play he did was ebcause he learned that the Emperor was "outside the known galaxy". On another note, I wanted people to be aware that the letter never states the Emperor is outside the galaxy. Your comment made this fuzzy. Nothing supports this. Really? I never said he was outside of the galaxy. I stated that he was outside the known galaxy. And your response was: Second, it is never stated the Emperor "is outside the known- Galaxy".(empahsis added) If you intended to make clear that the possibility existed that he was in the unknown galaxy existed since people can overlook single words to get entirely different meanings, then okay. However your first post does not convey this and instead your response was incorrect and misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aronean Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yet another thread where JediArchives gets owned on the topic that he is an "expert" on. This thread is like all the other threads that he posts on, he just ignores all other stories and claims to have read the Revan book...in Reven the emperor is a PUREBLOOD sith with black eyes, not a human...fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callmeswarly Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 You should try reading Revan sometime. Continue to ignore Scourge's single purpose that he has had 300 years to prepare for, it doesn't help your argument much. Such reveals a glaring plot hole. You must have an incredibly low opinion of Bioware's writing. To each their own, I suppose. It's not really a plot hole. Visions can easily be misinterpreted, it's actually a pretty common occurrence in the Star Wars universe (Darth Vader says hello) and it wouldn't be at all surprising if Scourge misinterpreted his own vision. He's a Sith, he saw the vision and acted on it out of impulse, even after being told specifically by Revan towards the end of the book that the future is always in motion, be mindful of visions but it's best not to act on them. There's no real way for Scourge to tell during a vision that it was truly the Emperor and not just his voice, much in the way that we the player have no true way to tell if any of the "Emperors" we confronted in game were the true one. In fact at the end of Act III (I don't know if it's different for Dark Side) he specifically says "I felt nothing, you haven't killed him". The way I read it was that Scourge's vision did come to pass but not in the way he originally perceived it as the Emperor is still alive in some capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeybigz Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I also want to add that during the ending of the JK storyline, when you are receiving your medal from Satele on the fleet, when they get to Scourge he says he is only sticking around until he knows for sure his mission is complete, possibly implying he is unsure if you really killed the emperor. Just some food for thought to support the "you killed the voice" camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranadiel_Marius Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) There's no real way for Scourge to tell during a vision that it was truly the Emperor and not just his voice, much in the way that we the player have no true way to tell if any of the "Emperors" we confronted in game were the true one. In fact at the end of Act III (I don't know if it's different for Dark Side) he specifically says "I felt nothing, you haven't killed him". The way I read it was that Scourge's vision did come to pass but not in the way he originally perceived it as the Emperor is still alive in some capacity. Well we don't even know that the vision that Scourge had has to pass yet. If we take the vision literally, then we know it hasn't passed yet because Scourge wasn't there and the Emperor wasn't wearing a crown. If we take the vision metaphorically(which I think is how it is supposed to be taken) then the vision could be about any encounter between the Emperor and the JK and Scourge would have no way of knowing if the vision was about that fight.....unless the JK took over the Empire shortly afterwards. And I believe Scourge's line if you take the dark side option is "I can sense him fading... but he is not gone." Edit: Just to clarify, not really disagreeing with you. I'm just throwing out more food for thought. Edited February 17, 2012 by Ranadiel_Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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