stephenjohnp Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 except they are not. highest burst damage in the game, still the only class that can reliably stunlock geared players to death who do not have every CD up. and they have stealth, which is a major gamechanger in ald and void. downside is that they are pretty much worthless in huttball, at least compared to the top 4 classes in that WZ. Highest burst goes to Jugg/Guardian. Please, highest burst? Don't make me laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) Highest burst goes to Jugg/Guardian. Please, highest burst? Don't make me laugh. jugg/guardian dont kill me in under 10 seconds. if my CC breaker is down, an op (doesnt have to be BM, even half cent half champ ops) will regularly stunlock my character to death before i have a chance to get a single shot off. and this is as a champ geared player. the only way i can even have an OPPORTUNITY to fight an op is if i use my CC breaker, all my def CDs, medpac, and exp adrenal. thats not to WIN against an op, just for the opportunity to fight one. btw, there is not a single other class in this game where i have to pop everything just to be able to fight back against them, let alone win. hell there are a few other classes that my class struggles with 1v1, but at least i get the opportunity to actually fight back against them. so fine, you want a gap closer and higher sustained? burst gets toned all the way down, and your ability to stunlock gets nerfed. that way ops are better in huttball, but less powerful in ald and void. balanced. maybe even add a root to replace the lost CC. Edited March 12, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjng Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 may i suggest the removal of knockback conditions of thermal/frag grenade? specifically the standard or weak targets and allow it work in pvp. this will give the scoundrel/operative both a knockback ability as well as a gap closer (somewhat limited, but should be good enough to travel another 20m nearer). its good no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antilogical Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I agree operatives and smugglers should have a gap closer, and lose all ranged abilities to trade off for it. Whiney people just want everything...... want a gap closer roll something else Wait so Assassins have a gap closer, yet THEY get to keep all THEIR ranged abilities? Y U NO MAKE SENSE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfVey Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) See an operative open on one of your teammates? Taunt them. Burst gone. They even make that distinctive sound so you can tell an operative just opened on someone in the area. For overkill sometimes I put guard on who they opened on too, then it's a complete joke. Even if you don't have taunt, any sort of interruption is sufficient. Once they stun your teammate (with their regular stun), stun the operative. The Op needed it a lot more than you did. They're welcome to switch to you, they'll be doing it from outside stealth and probably after having already used up their stun on the guy they opened on. This is around when they'll be looking to vanish. Edited March 12, 2012 by ShadowOfVey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kweassa Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Wait so Assassins have a gap closer, yet THEY get to keep all THEIR ranged abilities? Y U NO MAKE SENSE? Do assasins have as high burst output and armour penetration as Ops? OK. Good point. Nerf Ops damage down to shadow/assasin levels, and give them gap closer. Heck, that'd even make them more easier to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TehMerc Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Nerf Ops damage down to shadow/assasin levels, and give them gap closer. Heck, that'd even make them more easier to deal with. Works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leszor Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Wait, are we at the point of saying that Sins/Shadows have worse damage than OPs/SCs? Yeah, okay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImSaved Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) Do assasins have as high burst output and armour penetration as Ops? OK. Good point. Nerf Ops damage down to shadow/assasin levels, and give them gap closer. Heck, that'd even make them more easier to deal with. This is when you know someone has no idea what they're talking about. Yeah, Shadows have it rough when it comes to burst DPS. Edited March 12, 2012 by ImSaved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMike Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) I agree operatives and smugglers should have a gap closer, and lose all ranged abilities to trade off for it. Whiney people just want everything...... want a gap closer roll something else So you suggest all 10m skills should become 30+m. Gotcha. Its called sniper/gunslinger. Edited March 12, 2012 by GrandMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavory Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) Hi. My name is Xavory. I have a rank 67, fully Remodded Battlemaster Operative w/2p Rakata bonus(Xavory). I also have a Rank 65, fully Remodded Battemaster Shadow(Xavori). I play in one of the top pvp group/teams on the server, and most anyone on Jung Ma will tell you I can handle myself 1vX on either toon. So I have a pretty good perspective on this topic. Here are my thoughts: There is NOTHING my Operative can do that my Shadow can't do much better, including Burst damage, outside of healing of course. Speed, Utility, survivability, dps, burst...my Shadow can do more than my Operative on all fronts. Bioware want's Operatives tied to stealth. They should have a stealth based gap closer at the very least, like Shadowstep. Edited March 12, 2012 by Xavory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Operatives do need a boost of some sort. Their survivability out of stealth is insanely low, especially when compared to assassins and marauders. Their burst is no different from other classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMike Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) Hi. My name is Xavory. I have a rank 67, fully Remodded Battlemaster Operative w/2p Rakata bonus(Xavory). I also have a Rank 65, fully Remodded Battemaster Shadow(Xavori). I play in one of the top pvp group/teams on the server, and most anyone on Jung Ma will tell you I can handle myself 1vX on either toon. So I have a pretty good perspective on this topic. Here are my thoughts: There is NOTHING my Operative can do that my Shadow can't do much better, including Burst damage, outside of healing of course. Speed, Utility, survivability, dps, burst...my Shadow can do more than my Operative on all fronts. Bioware want's Operatives tied to stealth. They should have a stealth based gap closer at the very least, like Shadowstep. Pretty much they are weak/crippled version of assasin/shadow. Why would anyone play operative/scoundrel over assassin/shadow except for flavor (like me). People talk about burst, but assassin/shadow can kill anything in same amount of time (in some cases much faster - when you need gap closer for example ). Edited March 12, 2012 by GrandMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavory Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The fact is their burst IS different from other classes, because it requires you to be out of combat to do it. The Acid Blade nerf needs to be reverted, and a gap closer needs to be implemented. That would go a long way to fixing Operatives in group pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMike Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The fact is their burst IS different from other classes, because it requires you to be out of combat to do it. The Acid Blade nerf needs to be reverted, and a gap closer needs to be implemented. That would go a long way to fixing Operatives in group pvp. Either they need their burst back or something completely different. I would really like for BW to make dev diary/blog about 1.2 class changes so we know where we stand, since some classes are really floating around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImSaved Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Hi. My name is Xavory. I have a rank 67, fully Remodded Battlemaster Operative w/2p Rakata bonus(Xavory). I also have a Rank 65, fully Remodded Battemaster Shadow(Xavori). I play in one of the top pvp group/teams on the server, and most anyone on Jung Ma will tell you I can handle myself 1vX on either toon. So I have a pretty good perspective on this topic. Here are my thoughts: There is NOTHING my Operative can do that my Shadow can't do much better, including Burst damage, outside of healing of course. Speed, Utility, survivability, dps, burst...my Shadow can do more than my Operative on all fronts. Bioware want's Operatives tied to stealth. They should have a stealth based gap closer at the very least, like Shadowstep. Not only are they better, or at least equal in burst. But their consistent energy regen allows for much better DPS over a prolonged period of time. When rated Warzones come out and DPS classes are expected to swap targets constantly and participate efficiently in group fights I think our shortcomings will be a lot more noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeSiK Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Operative: -Worst healer in the game -Worst stealther in the game -Worst DPS in the game -NO utility in Huttball top to bottom - agreed for now - how? - Go raid and find out how much u really do (you come close to top im willing to bet..at least ours does a lot full t3) - Controlling mid ....theres 3 warzones sorcball is a joke anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavory Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Not only are they better, or at least equal in burst. But their consistent energy regen allows for much better DPS over a prolonged period of time. When rated Warzones come out and DPS classes are expected to swap targets constantly and participate efficiently in group fights I think our shortcomings will be a lot more noticeable. Oh yeah that was my third fix for Operatives in Group pvp. Revert the Acid Blade nerf Give them a gap closer out of stealth(like Shadow Step) Lower the CD on Backstab from 9 to 6 seconds Backstab is our only hope for long dps. Acid blade nerf hit it hard. If you want to boost Operative dps without making the opener go crazy, lower the CD on Backstab a little, and put Acid blade back where it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 top to bottom - agreed for now - how? - Go raid and find out how much u really do (you come close to top im willing to bet..at least ours does a lot full t3) - Controlling mid ....theres 3 warzones sorcball is a joke anyway I meant the "worst stealther" comment in the way that out of the two stealth classes in the game Operative is definitely the worst one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Hi. My name is Xavory. I have a rank 67, fully Remodded Battlemaster Operative w/2p Rakata bonus(Xavory). I also have a Rank 65, fully Remodded Battemaster Shadow(Xavori). I play in one of the top pvp group/teams on the server, and most anyone on Jung Ma will tell you I can handle myself 1vX on either toon. So I have a pretty good perspective on this topic. Here are my thoughts: There is NOTHING my Operative can do that my Shadow can't do much better, including Burst damage, outside of healing of course. Speed, Utility, survivability, dps, burst...my Shadow can do more than my Operative on all fronts. Bioware want's Operatives tied to stealth. They should have a stealth based gap closer at the very least, like Shadowstep. Thank you. I hope all the people saying "stealth is your gap closer", "your burst is insane", "stunlock to death" etc. read your post. I am pretty sure that Operatives were actually better balanced in the beginning of SWTOR than they are now. If Bioware had nerfed Surge and Biochem before nerfing Operatives it would have been a decently balanced game (both in PvP and PvE). Back then there were a lot of complaints about Operatives because A) People didn't have enough gear to survive an Operative's attack. Having gear makes all the difference in the world. B) People didn't bother to think about how to counter Operatives (which is really easy to do if you know how the class works). Instead they asked for Bioware to nerf the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LenrocNewDawn Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 All I want for my OP slinger is a bigger hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AetherMcLoud Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 While I agree that Operatives need something, especially a gap closer, everyone who says Assassins have much more surviability than Ops should stop that. Yes, Tank Assassins have WAY more survivability than Ops. Deception and Madness (i.e. the two DPS specs) Assassins are about even with Ops, they explode just as easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavory Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Deception/Infil take damage about the same as Ops true, but Speed+Resilience makes them more survivable, without question. I think if at launch, everyone had BM level gear, and 10s didnt have to que VS Geared 50s, the nerfs would have never happened. Gabe said the "scoring" was off on HS and Acid blade... Probably because they balanced it for endgame and didn't take into account the BM Operative stacking consumables vs the level 10 explosion factor. After the 50s only and consumable stacking patch, we were in a pretty good place. The subsequent nerfs that followed were mostly politics in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiazabi Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 While I agree that Operatives need something, especially a gap closer, everyone who says Assassins have much more surviability than Ops should stop that. Yes, Tank Assassins have WAY more survivability than Ops. Deception and Madness (i.e. the two DPS specs) Assassins are about even with Ops, they explode just as easily. Deception + Madness still got Knockback 20sec cd vs flashbang 60sec Forcespeed Tech/force immunity for 3sec > evade white dmg for 3sec Deflection ranged stun > melee stun ? Vanish are about equal, except you can combine stuff like vanish + forcespeed away, stun forcespeed. Medium armor does not make up for that and some of the early stuff in dps like madness give bonus to armor rating. So i wouldnt exactly say they explode just as easily when they have more ways to avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MightyHalo Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 lol ops don't need a gap closer, unless they are willing to sacrifice vanish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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