Sorcerer is a better PvP tank than a Vanguard

[savionen]

Just a bit of theorycrafting.

 

Over 15 minutes, a Sorcerer will take less damage than a tank-spec Vanguard in optimal situations.

 

Sorcerer:

20% kinetic/energy damage reduction

10% elemental/internal damage reduction

 

A Sorcerer can block about 3k damage every 20 seconds.

 

Over 15 minutes, that's 45 bubbles.

 

Vanguard:

40% chance to shield attacks, reducing the damage taken by 40%. Most attacks aren't shielded in PvP, so that's closer to a 4% damage reduction.

 

55% kinetic/energy damage reduction (including shield)

12% elemental/internal damage reduction (including shield)

 

A Vanguard can use Reactive Shield once every 2 minutes, for 12 seconds, reducing damage taken by a further 25%. Over a 15 minute game that's 90 seconds of Reactive Shield. Averaging that in, that's about a 5% damage reduction across the field, split over 15 minutes.

 

60% Kinetic/Energy damage reduction with Reactive Shield included.

17% Elemental/Internal damage reduction with Reactive Shield included.

 

Assuming both the Sorcerer and Vanguard take 300k damage over 15 minutes, 150k kinetic/energy, and 150k elemental/internal:

 

The Sorcerer will take a grand total of 135k out of the 300k.

150k Kin/Elec -> 120k after reduction.

150k Elem/Int -> 135k after reduction.

 

The bubbles blocks another 120k damage, leaving 135k damage left.

 

The Vanguard will take a grand total of 184k out of the 300k.

150k Kin/Elec -> 60k Kin/Elec

150k Elem/Int -> 124k Elem/Int

 

I know that real PvP doesn't work like this. There's not a turret standing outside of your base shooting you right as you spawn, but it's a bit crazy, no? Considering this doesn't even factor in the ability for Sorcerers to heal, Force Run, and the plethora of other abilities they have to stay away from their enemies.

Edited February 15, 2012 by savionen

[dcgregorya]

And due to this disparity, I feel like sorcerors should also have a self heal, speed buff, aoe root, best healing in the game, hmm am I missing anything?

[Waagabond]

I am one of those that believes sorcs need a nerf, but not a too hard one.

 

BUt when it comes to PVP tanking, I would like to say one thing:

 

Healers have in every MMO been what is refered to as "tanks", when they are tanking several enemies, able to out heal or survive the damage long enough before they persish.

 

Actually, SWTOR have made the real tanks very strong in survival in my opinion.

Juggernauts, Guardians, Powertechs, Vanguards, are immense strong classes as tanks in PVP.

 

But if you as a vanguard is not wearing super commando set, a cent, champ or BM shield, super commando implants, ears, relics, and still believe you should be able to tank, then you are wrong.

Cause if you choose the eliminator or super tech gear over super commando you have far less survival then a commando medic, as a matter of fact, you have probably worse survival then a gunnery commando.

 

And vs that kind of gear, a healer will "out tank" you any day of the week, as they also should be able too.

[Ashes_Arizona]

Jedi Consulars are better PvP tanks than Juggernaut Immortals or BH Powertechs.

 

It goes both ways.

[Waagabond]

Seems like you do have tanking gear but do you have PVP tanking gear? Super commando?

 

Also please note that shields do not work vs elemental and tech damage, only weapon damage. And armor does not protect vs internal or elemental damage.

(Yes, sorcs do full damage on you as vanguard if you are naked or in full battlemaster super commando gear, the damage on you remain the same, only the expertise lowers the damage, nothing else).

[Tsubodia]

Just a bit of theorycrafting.

 

Over 15 minutes, a Sorcerer will take less damage than a tank-spec Vanguard in optimal situations.

 

Sorcerer:

20% kinetic/energy damage reduction

10% elemental/internal damage reduction

 

A Sorcerer can block about 3k damage every 20 seconds.

 

Over 15 minutes, that's 45 bubbles.

 

Erm. sorcs have no such damage reduction. Your clearly combining 2 AC into one.

 

stop making excuses to qq

[savionen]

Erm. sorcs have no such damage reduction. Your clearly combining 2 AC into one.

 

stop making excuses to qq

 

Light Armor is roughly 20% kinetic/energy damage reduction.

Mark of Power is 10% elemental/internal damage reduction.

 

Static Barrier blocks around 3k damage at level 50. Slightly more if BM geared.

Edited February 15, 2012 by savionen

[savionen]

I am one of those that believes sorcs need a nerf, but not a too hard one.

 

BUt when it comes to PVP tanking, I would like to say one thing:

 

Healers have in every MMO been what is refered to as "tanks", when they are tanking several enemies, able to out heal or survive the damage long enough before they persish.

 

Actually, SWTOR have made the real tanks very strong in survival in my opinion.

Juggernauts, Guardians, Powertechs, Vanguards, are immense strong classes as tanks in PVP.

 

But if you as a vanguard is not wearing super commando set, a cent, champ or BM shield, super commando implants, ears, relics, and still believe you should be able to tank, then you are wrong.

Cause if you choose the eliminator or super tech gear over super commando you have far less survival then a commando medic, as a matter of fact, you have probably worse survival then a gunnery commando.

 

And vs that kind of gear, a healer will "out tank" you any day of the week, as they also should be able too.

 

50% damage reduction with 40% shield chance/reduction is basically a 31-point shield-spec Vanguard with full BM gear.

[Anthiel]

Erm. sorcs have no such damage reduction. Your clearly combining 2 AC into one.

 

stop making excuses to qq

 

yes they do 20% from armor mit 10|% from their personal buff

[Zaodon]

Buff Vanguards !!!! Edited February 15, 2012 by Zaodon

[Tsubodia]

yes they do 20% from armor mit 10|% from their personal buff

 

 

i generally dont even look at armour values considering for sorcs its pathetic. either way the ops maths is horrendous.

 

so much "over a whole game" being added in when a tank needs cds in the SHORT term which they have and not "over a a superlong period of time"

 

i could probably make the same stupid calculations about any class spec in any mmo on those lines. OP is doing nothing more than trying to justify jumping on the bandwagon calling for a nerf.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Tsubodia

[Waagabond]

50% damage reduction with 40% shield chance/reduction is basically a 31-point shield-spec Vanguard with full BM gear.

 

Yes I noticed this and re stated in another reply, but my question remains if its pvp or pve gear. I assume PVP gear.

 

Still, the only mitigation he would have vs a sorc would be his expertise and hitpoint pool. since Elemental damage bypass his shield and it neglects armor.

 

Every tank knows this, so the statement of the OP confuses me a little.

 

Shields do need a buff however and should affect more then just 15% of the possible incoming damage you get. Wihich is the case at the moment.

 

Armor is far better mitigation then shields, and as such, taking the talent for 16% more armor is probably the best pvp defensive talent you can take, well more worth it over 10% more shield for 5 talent points.

 

Going further then 23 in shield as a vanguard makes no sense at all for PVP. Which is unfouortenate.

[dcgregorya]

Erm. sorcs have no such damage reduction. Your clearly combining 2 AC into one.

 

stop making excuses to qq

 

Heheh, weren't you one of the people saying "baddies gonna be bad" and you don't even know what armor does in this game?

[Crystalynne]

 

And vs that kind of gear, a healer will "out tank" you any day of the week, as they also should be able too.

 

No, just no.

[Rykke]

.....

 

But if you as a vanguard is not wearing super commando set, a cent, champ or BM shield, super commando implants, ears, relics, and still believe you should be able to tank, then you are wrong.

Cause if you choose the eliminator or super tech gear over super commando you have far less survival then a commando medic, as a matter of fact, you have probably worse survival then a gunnery commando.

 

And vs that kind of gear, a healer will "out tank" you any day of the week, as they also should be able too.

 

If you are wearing supercommando you're actually gimping yourself as a tank in PvP. In fact, all three tank ACs should be wearing their DPS sets in PvP even if they are in a tank spec. I'm not going to go over the details as Taugrim does a good job of breaking it down for you but long story short, the defensive stats on the tank gear don't as much for you as you'd believe other than the bonus endurance.

 

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/a

 

I wear the Eliminator's set on Powertech and run a 21/2/18 ST/Pyro spread for PvP. I've tried 31pt spec with the shielding talents before too and if anything stacking damage reduction talents in ST and Adv. Prototype makes you bulkier than going full ST. Squishier than a gunnery commando? Please those guys wish they were tanky like me.

 

This is all PvP related which is what this thread is on but yea.

TLDR: Buy DPS Gear for PvP even if you tank.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Rykke

[Meltheran]

But if you as a vanguard is not wearing super commando set, a cent, champ or BM shield, super commando implants, ears, relics, and still believe you should be able to tank, then you are wrong.

Cause if you choose the eliminator or super tech gear over super commando you have far less survival then a commando medic, as a matter of fact, you have probably worse survival then a gunnery commando.

 

And vs that kind of gear, a healer will "out tank" you any day of the week, as they also should be able too.

 

Actually the argument for supercommando isfairly thin, since defense is just a useless in PVP as Shield. The only thing you get is the extra Endurance and the set bonuses. Honestly your best bet is to get both the Suppercommando set and one of the other sets, pull the mods from one of the other sets and drop them in the supercommando set for the set bonuses.

 

 

Also it is important to check your spec closely. A lot of tanking talents have little to know use for PVP. One of the many reasons I'm fond of the "Iron Fist" spec (25/14/2)

 

Taugrim does a great job of explaining all of this on here.

[Meltheran]

Rykke beat me to it.

[hadoken]

That is a tremendous amount of Elemental and Internal damage to be taking.

 

50% of your incoming damage is Internal/Elemental? Just who are you fighting?

[Mavnas]

Your math seems to assume slow steady DPS rather than high spikes. Also, you count the bubble for sorcs, but that bubble prevents other sorcs from shielding you. A Vanguard could also be receiving a bubble from a friendly sage every cooldown because their own abilities don't interfere with it.

 

This is like comparing classes that have buffs castable on other people buffed vs. other classes unbuffed and acting as if PvP is 1v1. Actually... it's exactly that thing.

[GarfieldJL]

Actually the argument for supercommando isfairly thin, since defense is just a useless in PVP as Shield. The only thing you get is the extra Endurance and the set bonuses. Honestly your best bet is to get both the Suppercommando set and one of the other sets, pull the mods from one of the other sets and drop them in the supercommando set for the set bonuses.

 

 

Also it is important to check your spec closely. A lot of tanking talents have little to know use for PVP. One of the many reasons I'm fond of the "Iron Fist" spec (25/14/2)

 

Taugrim does a great job of explaining all of this on here.

 

Unless you have an insane accuracy, defense actually can be effective in PvP.

 

The problem is that it favors Sorcerors, Assassins, Sages, and Shadows.

 

They all start with a 10% defense chance right off the bat. Everyone else (including Jedi Guardians and Sith Juggernauts) have a 5% base defense chance.

 

I've managed to get up to a 13% defense chance with my guardian (I'm a dps that often ends up thrust into a tanking role cause I like helping lower lvl players with PvE quests).

 

If I had the same defense on a consular or inquisitor that would be over 18%, and if I went all out on a consular or inquisitor it would probably be at least 20%.

 

That means we're looking at a 1 in 5 chance of an attack doing absolutely positively nothing to them.

 

That means 20% of your attacks don't do damage to begin with.

 

So considering shields don't really block force attacks all that much, I can actually see a tank Vanguard getting their heads handed to them by a Sorceror posing as a tank.

 

Defense will block elemental attacks, there is a chance for it to block Force attacks.

 

Shield and absorb just reduces damage you take or gives a chance that it will be reduced.

 

When Defense is successful they don't take damage to begin with.

 

 

I think Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors or at the very least Guardians and Juggernauts should have their defense chance upped to the level of Consulars and Inquisitors.

[NessusFett]

and when you hit a sorc... you do alot more damage than when you hit a vanguard.

(meaning that the 300k for vanguard is about 400k for the sorcer).

 

your health is going to be much higher as a vanguard than a sorc.

 

which means you are going to die alot faster and more often then the vanguard...

 

meaning you spend way more time respawning as the sorc trying to tank... meaning you will take much less damage (which is basically the point pf the tank)

 

 

so while actual percentages of the damages might be similar.

you are going to be much more effective as a vanguard.

which is to be expected as a vanguard.

[skarlson]

Seems like you do have tanking gear but do you have PVP tanking gear? Super commando?

 

Also please note that shields do not work vs elemental and tech damage, only weapon damage. And armor does not protect vs internal or elemental damage.

(Yes, sorcs do full damage on you as vanguard if you are naked or in full battlemaster super commando gear, the damage on you remain the same, only the expertise lowers the damage, nothing else).

 

Seriously? Stop posting until you learn how things work. Sorcerer's do energy damage with their lightning attacks. Only a select few attacks will bypass armor reduction such as affliction which is a dot that does internal damage.

[shadowAI]

Defense will block elemental attacks, there is a chance for it to block Force attacks.

 

Defense only increase melee and ranged dodge. It does not increase force/tech dodge. Practically its useless in pvp against the majority of abilities (E.g. tracer missile is a tech attack and not a ranged attack).

 

Defense/shield is only good against SS snipers/marks gunslingers and specific sent/mara sepcs.

Edited February 15, 2012 by shadowAI

[Madu]

sorcerer is a better pvp tank than a vanguard

 

signed!

[Meltheran]

Unless you have an insane accuracy, defense actually can be effective in PvP.

 

The problem is that it favors Sorcerors, Assassins, Sages, and Shadows.

 

They all start with a 10% defense chance right off the bat. Everyone else (including Jedi Guardians and Sith Juggernauts) have a 5% base defense chance.

 

I've managed to get up to a 13% defense chance with my guardian (I'm a dps that often ends up thrust into a tanking role cause I like helping lower lvl players with PvE quests).

 

If I had the same defense on a consular or inquisitor that would be over 18%, and if I went all out on a consular or inquisitor it would probably be at least 20%.

 

That means we're looking at a 1 in 5 chance of an attack doing absolutely positively nothing to them.

 

That means 20% of your attacks don't do damage to begin with.

 

So considering shields don't really block force attacks all that much, I can actually see a tank Vanguard getting their heads handed to them by a Sorceror posing as a tank.

 

Defense will block elemental attacks, there is a chance for it to block Force attacks.

 

Shield and absorb just reduces damage you take or gives a chance that it will be reduced.

 

When Defense is successful they don't take damage to begin with.

 

 

I think Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors or at the very least Guardians and Juggernauts should have their defense chance upped to the level of Consulars and Inquisitors.

 

you are partially right, what I meant by useless was that both deffence and shield generally only count for base attacks (weapon but not force or tech) defence does have a very small chance to count against those if it is high enough, but if you look at the tooltip you will see it is only for melee and ranged attacks for the most part.