solnar_xan Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 His problem is that he thinks that since this is computer game there is no RNG cuz (and i dont get where did he got that idea from,prob pulled it from the same place his posts are coming from)computers dont deal with random numbers.Nope,computer cant emulate dice being rolled(hello d&d)it just has some "miracolous" algoritm upon wich comms are being destributed.So he wants to know how ppl cheat on that uber algoritm to get their epixx. Random numbers generated by a computer are in fact not random at all; given the same "seed" the identical random numbers can and will be generated over and over and over and over and over and over. The seed is most likely server cpu ticks which reduces the predictability significantly. But, if BioWare uses something like CPU TICKS + Numeric Value of your name... you could just be screwed. This is a fact computers can not just pick a random number it is a pseudo random number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalur Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Re-posted from the earlier linked thread. While frustrating, this doesn't seem like a "broken" mechanic. If the drops are RNG, with each bag offering a 25% chance to drop a BM comm, it does not mean that you should be getting 1 comm every 4 bags. What most seem to be experiencing is a case of the Gambler's Fallacy. It's exact same reason why Vegas is so successful. People believe that based on previous experience they are MORE likely to be successful in future endeavors. In reality, each time you open a bag, it does not take into account previous bags, each opening is totally independent event. "The Gambler's fallacy... also referred to as the fallacy of the maturity of chances, is the belief that if deviations from expected behaviour are observed in repeated independent trials of some random process, future deviations in the opposite direction are then more likely" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy This is all based on the assumption that the BM bags are operating on a RNG system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DestyOwn Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Re-posted from the earlier linked thread. While frustrating, this doesn't seem like a "broken" mechanic. If the drops are RNG, with each bag offering a 25% chance to drop a BM comm, it does not mean that you should be getting 1 comm every 4 bags. What most seem to be experiencing is a case of the Gambler's Fallacy. It's exact same reason why Vegas is so successful. People believe that based on previous experience they are MORE likely to be successful in future endeavors. In reality, each time you open a bag, it does not take into account previous bags, each opening is totally independent event. "The Gambler's fallacy... also referred to as the fallacy of the maturity of chances, is the belief that if deviations from expected behaviour are observed in repeated independent trials of some random process, future deviations in the opposite direction are then more likely" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy This is all based on the assumption that the BM bags are operating on a RNG system They just said it's broken and probably favors certain players. How is that TRUE RNG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdarpa Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Holy crap it's been linked twice in this thread.....jeezus...half the people on here dont' even take the time to read before they post.. YEah I just saw that and read the link. My apologies for that, that was indeed my read fail. I skim rather than read because of the disgusting amount of crying that goes on in the forums with little teeny tiny gems here and there. So my next question is whether or not anyone can link the post by the Bioware employee that a problem exists where some players have a mathematically better gear drop rate than others, or an indication that they agree that there is indeed an issue where drops favor some players over others. I believe that's the OP's problem, it's difficult to really tell because the kid has poor communication skills and would rather rant and rage than explain his issue clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epicycle Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 They just said it's broken and probably favors certain players. How is that TRUE RNG how is it FALSE RNG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxcolt Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Pure Luck doesnt exist in a computer. it's all based on an algorithm, they managed to **** up a random number generator algorithm. So im pretty sure they added some kind of MMR(Skill level/time played/against who...) type of values in their formulas. Maybe an equivalent for Valor... but Valor doesnt seem to do anything. I personally went from Valor 60 to Valor 63 and got 2 Bm Commodations in Over 40bags.. lost count after 40 Which broke the real RNG behind the equation and favor certain people over other players... lolololol Man..talking like you have a Phd in Comp science..how did you get so knowledgeable! Really..you people need to realize that your personal experience does not equate to fact...nor does it even begin to contribute to any conclusions about the systems RNG broken or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epicycle Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 please close this thread, i wanna go home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxcolt Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 YEah I just saw that and read the link. My apologies for that, that was indeed my read fail. I skim rather than read because of the disgusting amount of crying that goes on in the forums with little teeny tiny gems here and there. So my next question is whether or not anyone can link the post by the Bioware employee that a problem exists where some players have a mathematically better gear drop rate than others, or an indication that they agree that there is indeed an issue where drops favor some players over others. I believe that's the OP's problem, it's difficult to really tell because the kid has poor communication skills and would rather rant and rage than explain his issue clearly. Happens to the best of us.... There's no such link..BW just posted a generic "were looking into it" post..and now OP is QQ'ing rivers all over the forums... Hoping after the flood of threads that will hit BW will come back with a better explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmov Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 So how did the pros end up with Full BM gear asap. I want to let you guys know i made a post that people were exploiting issues to increase their drop chances and gain loot faster. He isnt looking for a fix,he thinks that some player employed some kind of shamanism to get bm gear asap. No1 knows what exactly broken,yet he spouts his logical falacy like its a gospell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Re-posted from the earlier linked thread. While frustrating, this doesn't seem like a "broken" mechanic. If the drops are RNG, with each bag offering a 25% chance to drop a BM comm, it does not mean that you should be getting 1 comm every 4 bags. What most seem to be experiencing is a case of the Gambler's Fallacy. It's exact same reason why Vegas is so successful. People believe that based on previous experience they are MORE likely to be successful in future endeavors. In reality, each time you open a bag, it does not take into account previous bags, each opening is totally independent event. "The Gambler's fallacy... also referred to as the fallacy of the maturity of chances, is the belief that if deviations from expected behaviour are observed in repeated independent trials of some random process, future deviations in the opposite direction are then more likely" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy This is all based on the assumption that the BM bags are operating on a RNG system This is absolutely true btw. At a 25% rate eventually over the long run you could finally hit that point, but it could take an infinite number of tries to even out the streaks that it's not even funny. You could literally, continue to go 100 for 1000 while your friend enjoys the other side of the coin at 900 of 1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DestyOwn Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 how is it FALSE RNG? TRUE RNG Cannot be broke. Since it doesnt favor anyone. RNG Formules have been around since computers exist. if they used a true rng formula why would it be broke? if people are using these formulas for ages. It's obvious they added some stuff to their rng formulas which broke it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icecoldone Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 YEah I just saw that and read the link. My apologies for that, that was indeed my read fail. I skim rather than read because of the disgusting amount of crying that goes on in the forums with little teeny tiny gems here and there. So my next question is whether or not anyone can link the post by the Bioware employee that a problem exists where some players have a mathematically better gear drop rate than others, or an indication that they agree that there is indeed an issue where drops favor some players over others. I believe that's the OP's problem, it's difficult to really tell because the kid has poor communication skills and would rather rant and rage than explain his issue clearly. Ok i'll be civil with you I have good communication skill actually. I have just given up talking to this community cos anything they don't understand turns into a rage at you. I have commented on this issue so many times and just got shot down in a triad of rage and insults. so no it's not that i can't communicate. This is the only way they will listen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delavager Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Computers for starters don't do random. Which is why this system messed up in the first place. They had an algoritm and they got it wrong. I said this many times but was told by you zombies that its "RNG" "WE GET IT OP DOESN'T UNDERSTAND RANDOM" i did understand random more than you and actaully i was right You are amazing. I'm stunned I just read all that. You are making assumptions. Period. Here is the BW quote: Greetings All, We apologize for this issue, it is a known one and it is due to be resolved in a future patch at some point after 1.1.3 Where in this "OFFICIAL STATEMENT" does BW say that the bags favor some people over others? Where does it say what the issue actually is? Basically you are making everything up, everything. The ONLY part of your posts that hold true are "Battlemaster's bags are 'Broken'". Nothing else. Everything else is an assumption and heresy. You are NOT right. Edited February 15, 2012 by Moitteva removed rude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinlynn Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 they have been 60 for a while and spend time on there grind...alot of time THEY did not spend anymore time than anyone else. If anything, on the imperial side, they spent less time due to kill trading and faction imbalance in their favor. IE, it has been much easier for IMPS to complete their dailies and Weeklies on Illum and thus they were able to gear up much faster. ALSO, Illum is no place to valor farm. You get allot more valor from just doing WZz and especially if you go to illum first and get the valor buff. BTW, when the OP says tokens is this in reference to "Item Tokens" or generic tokens. As I understand it the Generic tokens are a for sure thing and the item tokens are rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epicycle Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 TRUE RNG Cannot be broke. Since it doesnt favor anyone. RNG Formules have been around since computers exist. if they used a true rng formula why would it be broke? if people are using these formulas for ages. It's obvious they added some stuff to their rng formulas which broke it. it has been said before but... "Random number generators are very useful in developing Monte Carlo-method simulations, as debugging is facilitated by the ability to run the same sequence of random numbers again by starting from the same random seed." so its still true rng if you mess with the seed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixterida Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I thought people used the pending quest exploit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdarpa Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Happens to the best of us.... There's no such link..BW just posted a generic "were looking into it" post..and now OP is QQ'ing rivers all over the forums... Hoping after the flood of threads that will hit BW will come back with a better explanation. Understood. I know the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and all that ole' good stuff. But don't you think that this thread might be more appropriate in the bug fix forum? You're right that computers do not do random, and the bag openings are not arbitrary, there is an algorithm run for everything that makes a precise calculation on what the number should be. Bioware is under no obligation to release this to you as it could possibly be proprietary. As a Senior Network Engineer for a large global IT company, I can tell you that 1 person crying really loud creates a far lower severity ticket than than 1000 people crying at individually low volumes. Until they fix it your options are: 1. deal with it 2. stop pvping 3. unsub Besides, what if the algorithm takes into account the amount of crying that you do on the forums? Edited February 15, 2012 by Moitteva rude/inapp content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-sasori Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I've bought the standard edition. My Account is unmarked BM bags equal out about 25%. Collector Edition owners got marked Accounts, their bags should have 2.5% drop chance. Apparently CE owners got 25% too. This will be fixed. () jk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laoi Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) As a side note, you need to get it out of your head that BM gear will suddenly turn you into a PvP god. The difference between Champion gear and BM gear is about 6 more Expertise and around 3-6 Endurance/Primary Stat per piece. BM gear will NOT suddenly turn a bad player into a good player. The only BM piece that is a significant upgrade is the Main Hand weapon. i wish that was true. bm mainhand is actually a downgrade to champ one in terms of dps, it just adds alot of crit chance. oh yeah and it looks cooler huge factor huh? NOT infact most bm items are a downgrade to champ in terms of dps. they add very little hp and main stat and even less exp, which is somewhat useless anyways at this level thx to diminishing returns. bm gear needs quite the buff seriously. it doesnt have to be alot better than champion gear but it definitaly shouldnt be worse in any aspect. Edited February 15, 2012 by Laoi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DestyOwn Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 it has been said before but... "Random number generators are very useful in developing Monte Carlo-method simulations, as debugging is facilitated by the ability to run the same sequence of random numbers again by starting from the same random seed." so its still true rng if you mess with the seed... it's been said before but. RNG doesn't exist in a computer... OFC if you change the seed its RNG... But changing the variables could narrow the range of your RNG which improve your chances right? maybe thats how they broke their formulas... messing around with the range of the RNG Anyways they will probably never tell us what they did to break a RNG system, because it would prove their RNG isnt Really Fair RNG and favors certain players on a fixed timeline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mertissielle Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Can someone chuck me a link? There was one posted earlier which had a Bioware reply but all it said was that they were aware of the issue and that something will address it in 1.1.3. Doesn't say anything about it being based on MMR or the drop chance being coded lower than intended or whatever. Might just mean a change like the recent Champion Bags one. Is there more on the issue someone can point me toward? Specifically Bioware talking about MMR etc. I'm not arguing with anyone here or trying to make a point. Genuinely just want to find out more about the issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DestyOwn Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Can someone chuck me a link? There was one posted earlier which had a Bioware reply but all it said was that they were aware of the issue and that something will address it in 1.1.3. Doesn't say anything about it being based on MMR or the drop chance being coded lower than intended or whatever. Might just mean a change like the recent Champion Bags one. Is there more on the issue someone can point me toward? Specifically Bioware talking about MMR etc. I'm not arguing with anyone here or trying to make a point. Genuinely just want to find out more about the issue We know its broken the rest is all theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierce Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 OP may be on a bit of a rage right now, but I think it's justified given the situation. Whether everybody wants to accept it or not, this game has been plagued with exploits in the PvP arena that go beyond sneaking out of start zones before the game starts and using speed hacks. It's well known that people exploited valor and XP gains from warzones ending early to get to Battlemaster very quickly after launch. It's also well known that others found ways to exploit valor gains in Ilum on the day of the patch to rise many ranks and get to BM very quickly. It's also pretty obvious that no action was taken against any of these individuals. Bioware was too busy banning people for looting worthless credits and green items from chests next to friendly faction NPCs that were programmed to respawn too quickly. Anyways, what is not exactly clear is how people got their BM gear so quickly, and how they have continued to do so. I think the patch yesterday is pretty telling: Items can no longer be used while they are locked for trading, selling on the GTN, or when attaching the item to a mail message. Unique items can no longer be traded to a player that has the maximum number of that item in their inventory. From this, it seems likely that there were ways to trade BM bags so that you could save up more than just 1 after being able to get them at rank 50. Also very likely that you could lock a BM bag in a trade window, then open it in your inventory to get the loot, then still trade it, effectively making it unlimited use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onurgg Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 i wish that was true. bm mainhand is actually a downgrade to champ one in terms of dps, it just adds alot of crit chance. oh yeah and it looks cooler huge factor huh? NOT infact most bm items are a downgrade to champ in terms of dps. they add very little hp and main stat and even less exp, which is somewhat useless anyways at this level thx to diminishing returns. bm gear needs quite the buff seriously. it doesnt have to be alot better than champion gear but it definitaly shouldnt be worse in any aspect. it's not really a downgrade but the focused stats changing is what's making it look like. And please, you said less expertise? lol... not gonna say anything. Also, there's no diminishing returns on Strength, Endurance or Power. So I don't know why you'd say something like that either. Moving on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mertissielle Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 We know its broken the rest is all theories Did they confirm it's broken or just that they're aware of the issue? Because they were "aware of the issue" with Champion bags too, so they changed the tokens system and stuff, right? I don't think their post necessarily means it's not working from a technical standpoint - it could just as easily mean they're shifting to a different paradigm for BM gear distribution as they did with Champion/Centurion gear, surely? Or did they confirm somewhere else that the RNG system itself is broken in some fashion? Again, genuinely not trolling, just trying to collect enough information to make up my own mind before diving into this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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