Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Is your argument, everyone sucks so it's ok to suck? I think his point is more about reasonable standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFlych Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I find myself thinking the legacy system is going to be forgotten and ignored the way hero classes were in wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeda Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 BW: "We have this great legacy system feature that we will be putting in the game." Players: "Really, what is it?" BW: " We aren't ready to say, but we're excited about it." <Game launches> Players: "A last name. . . that's it? And it carries over between factions on a single server but not across servers even if the same faction? It affects all of your characters on that server, cannot be changed, does not have a preview, and the system auto-changes it to conform to the non-communicated restrictions?" BW: "I know! Isn't it awesome!" Players: "???" BW: "We'll released more stuff for it, eventually." Players: "What will the additional features be?" BW: "We're not telling." Players: "Should I hold off on rolling alts?" BW: . . . Players: "???" BW: "We're going to be adding features to the legacy system in patch 1.2. These will include new races. . . kinda. And then there's other stuff." Players: "What kind of other stuff? What are the new races? Is it currently unplayable races that are in the game, or just races that are currently playable by one class that will now be playable on another? Will there be a way to change our current characters with these new features?" BW: . . . Players: "???" The reason they cant tell us because they really dont know. They probable though that a surname was good enough. Once they told just having a surname wasnt acceptable they just threw some things out there that they have not even worked on yet. Thats why they dont know because they havent started working on it yet. Then with the new race they cant even answer that. How hard is it to say we are getting new races or just existing races but available to new classes. Again they havent even thought of that. WHat they are going to end up doing is making the existing races playable by other classes and if the players dont just accept it then they will say that the new races that are not in the game are not finalized yet thats why they were not added but should be avaliable SOON. Its all tell them what they want to hear to keep them happy but be general about it then we will figure something out later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 They probable though that a surname was good enough. Once they told just having a surname wasnt acceptable they just threw some things out there that they have not even worked on yet. Thats why they dont know because they havent started working on it yet. Not quite. The legacy system was always meant to be more than just a surname. The trick is that they were never sure that the system would make it in for launch - it didn't, but some of it's support did. They'd have been working on it before launch, but that doesn't mean they know what's going to be ready for the next patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeda Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Not quite. The legacy system was always meant to be more than just a surname. The trick is that they were never sure that the system would make it in for launch - it didn't, but some of it's support did. They'd have been working on it before launch, but that doesn't mean they know what's going to be ready for the next patch. You have any links or quotes about the legacy before launch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 You have any links or quotes about the legacy before launch? Quick search on DH, and... http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19705-friday-update-bringing-down-the-hammer-art-and (Mentions plans to expand) http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/16246-fan-site-summit-general-information-learned (Legacy rarity in pre-launch) http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/16017-gdc-a-conversation-with-biowares-damion-schubert (Off-hand mention here about the system as relates to replay incentives and such) http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/16386-sdcc-2011-day-1-live-blog-coverage Just a few off the top. They didn't reveal a lot of information about much of anything before launch unless it was solid, but they'd always planned on the Legacy system being more than it is currently. It's just not there YET. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawn_of_Santa Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Well the 3rd thing is that they still subscribe to the Carrie school of "awesome" PR. Carrie Fisher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KuusouRumba Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 So, you think my "loved by millions" is referring to Skyrim reviewers, not players? Talk about laughable. Skyrim is an extremely well-liked and widely-played game. Yet if it was an MMO, it would have been savaged BY THE PLAYERS for it's shortcomings because players judge MMOs much more harshly than they do single-player games. As for features advertised and not implemented, we can mince words about what is actually "advertised" vs a wish/to-do list, but that is not terribly relevant. Premium MMOs are living games, and will be constantly expanded and improved. You stated GOTY awards, hence reviewers, Skyrim is also criticized by many, for the exact same problems you stated. You think TOR doesn't have diehard fanboys that love the game no matter what Bioware does? Browse the forums some more. Name me an MMO that is to be 100% featured when shipped and I will show you a game that never ships. No, but I can name you many that failed because they relied on a "we'll fix it later" attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerion Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 This is marketing 101..pure and simple. Dish out just enough information to be tantalizing. It then enters the realm of public imagination, in which we all imagine how great something will be. The reality rarely matches our dreams. /wrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRieh Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Yet if it was an MMO, it would have been savaged BY THE PLAYERS for it's shortcomings because players judge MMOs much more harshly than they do single-player games. Its just because single-player game takes a week or two, and MMO can take like 7 years. Creating cross-characters missions could be nice, I mean - who cares whom to show as npc in story-line area? Yet, reason must be there - I dont think my smuggler would ever share her credits or something with some IA, and don't tell me that he's her and CRs adopted kid. It's more or less ok, that personal story is plot-driven, yet forcing x-chars relations...If only it could be an option - may be, I mean that we'd be able to tell ourselves who is who's father . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratfanatic Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Don't care, not my problem. If the above scenario were limited to this one feature, then I, and likely many others, would be much more flexible and forgiving. But it seems to be more the rule than the exception with this game. I was patient. I followed the game from the beginning, including joining the forums the day they opened. I was in beta for 6 months and put up with GZ's antics and blatant statements that my feedback meant nothing and we were just there to give them metrics; yet I still filed my bug reports and provided in-game and forum feedback like a good little tester. I did my part. BW did not do theirs. I don't know how old you are but you sound like you have the mentality of a child. Try getting some perspective in life. Time to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizm Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 The important thing is that the system is in place. Instead of being miffed that there are no benefits available yet, just be glad that you have been leveling up your legacy already instead of playing for years only to have this system come out in an expansion and then you look back on how high your Legacy level would have been if it had come out sooner. It's like Achievements in WoW. By the time that rolled out I had already stopped raiding. And since it didn't retroactively count the stuff we had already achieved, my character's achievements looked like I had just rolled it. I would have rather had the system in place and ready to count what we were doing without any rewards yet. You'll feel better about Legacy once some time goes by and you find yourself at like level 115 Legacy with a bunch of benefits compared to someone just getting the game when an expansion came out. If they waited to put the system in at all until all the benefits were sorted out, all that time /played would have gotten us no Legacy levels. Patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathid Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 The important thing is that the system is in place. Instead of being miffed that there are no benefits available yet, just be glad that you have been leveling up your legacy already instead of playing for years only to have this system come out in an expansion and then you look back on how high your Legacy level would have been if it had come out sooner. It's like Achievements in WoW. By the time that rolled out I had already stopped raiding. And since it didn't retroactively count the stuff we had already achieved, my character's achievements looked like I had just rolled it. I would have rather had the system in place and ready to count what we were doing without any rewards yet. You'll feel better about Legacy once some time goes by and you find yourself at like level 115 Legacy with a bunch of benefits compared to someone just getting the game when an expansion came out. If they waited to put the system in at all until all the benefits were sorted out, all that time /played would have gotten us no Legacy levels. Patience. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elocke Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 BW: "We have this great legacy system feature that we will be putting in the game." Players: "Really, what is it?" BW: " We aren't ready to say, but we're excited about it." <Game launches> Players: "A last name. . . that's it? And it carries over between factions on a single server but not across servers even if the same faction? It affects all of your characters on that server, cannot be changed, does not have a preview, and the system auto-changes it to conform to the non-communicated restrictions?" BW: "I know! Isn't it awesome!" Players: "???" BW: "We'll released more stuff for it, eventually." Players: "What will the additional features be?" BW: "We're not telling." Players: "Should I hold off on rolling alts?" BW: . . . Players: "???" BW: "We're going to be adding features to the legacy system in patch 1.2. These will include new races. . . kinda. And then there's other stuff." Players: "What kind of other stuff? What are the new races? Is it currently unplayable races that are in the game, or just races that are currently playable by one class that will now be playable on another? Will there be a way to change our current characters with these new features?" BW: . . . Players: "???" Now this was funny. Hilarious but sadly too true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) I don't know how old you are but you sound like you have the mentality of a child. Try getting some perspective in life. Time to move on. Accountability is not a concept that is usually understood nor embraced by a child. I am holding BW accountable for their shortcomings, how does that make me sound like a child. Oh, wait, I forgot- defense of BW by way of ad hominem, carry on. (Incidentally, I hear that calling someone a child on the internet is the most mature way to converse; kudos on your very adult posting.) The important thing is that the system is in place. Instead of being miffed that there are no benefits available yet, just be glad that you have been leveling up your legacy already instead of playing for years only to have this system come out in an expansion and then you look back on how high your Legacy level would have been if it had come out sooner. It's like Achievements in WoW. By the time that rolled out I had already stopped raiding. And since it didn't retroactively count the stuff we had already achieved, my character's achievements looked like I had just rolled it. I would have rather had the system in place and ready to count what we were doing without any rewards yet. You'll feel better about Legacy once some time goes by and you find yourself at like level 115 Legacy with a bunch of benefits compared to someone just getting the game when an expansion came out. If they waited to put the system in at all until all the benefits were sorted out, all that time /played would have gotten us no Legacy levels. Patience. If you'd bothered to read the thread, starting with the OP, you'd know that the issue isn't simply the failure to implement a system that they had hyped as being one of the things that they were doing different. That was poor planning, but hey, it happens. The problem is poor planning combined with poor communication. A question as simple as "did you mean we could unlock the races that are currently playable for classes that are not allowed to play them right now, or did you mean that we could unlock other, currently unplayable races that are already in the game?" should not have even had to be asked, let alone not answered. And what are these other things that they alluded to for current characters? People are trying to make decisions now. They have already given BW money, they just want to know what to expect and if they should wait to make a new character. How hard is it to get a straight answer about things that affect that decision? Obviously, with BW, it's near-impossible. Edited February 16, 2012 by Vodalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizm Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If you'd bothered to read the thread If you are going to accuse someone of not reading, at least make the effort to read the final, single word of my post you quoted. You are showing a severe lack of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ActionPrinny Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) They said they were hoping to get it for launch. Only the barebones support made it in. Welcome to development. The fact that they're not revealing much is going to be due to exactly 2 things - no more, no less: 1: Hard to say for certain what's going to make it in for that patch. Some stuff might slip. 2: Marketing would want to hold some information back to release later. That's all fine and great. I just hope Marketing realizes there won't be any players left to pitch it to in April at this rate. They've given people zero info on why they should stay subbed until 1.2 hits. And it's far less likely people will resub after quitting than if they just told people what to expect. People are also going to get really mad at them if they have to restart alts to get access to some of these features. With leveling as fast as it is, people will have rolled all their alts by the time it even hits and won't care anymore. I don't know who is to blame for this fiasco over at EA/Bioware, but they really need to do some "restructuring" or fire their upper management for getting in the way. I can't believe industry veterans would make such gross miscalculations and be so out of touch with the MMO playerbase. Grizm: What system in place? Programming an algorithm for Legacy XP gain takes very little work. We're talking less than an hour of coding time. Having a last name across all your characters merely comes down to having a variable tied to your account data it references. Edited February 16, 2012 by ActionPrinny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotpar Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 ... Where the hell are you getting that from? From all the other publishers that force developers to release an unfinished product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If you are going to accuse someone of not reading, at least make the effort to read the final, single word of my post you quoted. You are showing a severe lack of it. I read it. I don't care if you say "patience". I was patient. That has passed. Again, if you'd read the thread, you'd know this as it has already been covered (some of it even quoted at the top of the very page you are posting this on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimeruacho Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Seriously? This whole time of legacy being something so awesome and unique and the ony thing they can offer us and come up with in the meeting board rooms is being able to make a new character? I hate making new characters. I want to focus on one character that I relate to the most not do the same thing over and over again...oh but wait jaimeruacho, you can enjoy the other stories...oh yeah sure let me do that, let me spend another 2-3 months getting characters stacked up in my login because thats the only thing I can do with my gaming time in Star Wars, yeah sure! After this whole time after all these years of devolopment you decided to prioritize the legacy system to be linked to being able to just create a new character on its first grand opening? What the heck...not cool not cool at all. Allow people to use opposite faction gear or use opposite faction gtn''s if you have a certain legacy level or let people buy fleet emergnecy passes with their levels. seriously, a guy who doesnt get paid to come up with ideas for a public that is playing the game that 'my company' has 'made' and 'updates' comes up with better ideas than you. Get a new board room and get creative, you all need a vacation or something those ideas that bland and boring cmon seriously get with it! Competition is coming soon and you are just happy to have 'pittty' subcriptions because fans feel like they the idea of star wars but the game sucks! Cmon add some awesome things! Who cares about sales! The sales will come and be better if you start thinking the way you guys did back in college in your dorms with dreams of designing a game that millions of people played! cmon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrydurf Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Accountability is not a concept that is usually understood nor embraced by a child. I am holding BW accountable for their shortcomings, how does that make me sound like a child. Oh, wait, I forgot- defense of BW by way of ad hominem, carry on. (Incidentally, I hear that calling someone a child on the internet is the most mature way to converse; kudos on your very adult posting.) If you'd bothered to read the thread, starting with the OP, you'd know that the issue isn't simply the failure to implement a system that they had hyped as being one of the things that they were doing different. That was poor planning, but hey, it happens. The problem is poor planning combined with poor communication. A question as simple as "did you mean we could unlock the races that are currently playable for classes that are not allowed to play them right now, or did you mean that we could unlock other, currently unplayable races that are already in the game?" should not have even had to be asked, let alone not answered. And what are these other things that they alluded to for current characters? People are trying to make decisions now. They have already given BW money, they just want to know what to expect and if they should wait to make a new character. How hard is it to get a straight answer about things that affect that decision? Obviously, with BW, it's near-impossible. The Legacy system was hyped but also hyped as not being a launch feature. They had hoped to have it implemented for launch but didn't think it was likely. To be upset that it didn't make it in at launch is a little unreasonable (not that I PERSONALLY wouldn't have rather seen legacy than warzones, Ilum, or any other PvP nonsense) As for communication they have likely given as much as they can guarantee. Systems change through the development cycle. It is a bad idea to promise something that may not make it into the production version as it just leads to people being upset that the feature is "missing" no matter how clear you are that things may change/be delayed. So they have mentioned that they plan to have upgrades to the legacy system starting with 1.2 but not given specifics. Additionally I'm pretty sure it has been pretty clearly stated that its going to be new race/class combos not wholly new races. They've been pretty clear that whole new PC races are not likely to come soon and if they did they would be available to everyone not just those who have sufficient legacy XP. Now what happens when they say "Legacy will allow for players with legacy level 4 to play True Sith Smugglers." OH Noes! we can't do that the True Sith are proud warrior guys they'd never become dirty fighting outlaws! and it doesn't make it in. the reason doesn't matter it can be Lore it can be technical (oh crap Twi's look horrible in trooper armor can't do that!), or whatever else. The point is that they say X is true then it changes (as things do) and people now have held off due to being told directly that it would be like that and when it isn't they rage over their wasted time and Bioware "lying" or misleading them "Just to draw out more subs" Frankly it's pretty clear if you read between the lines of what has been said that races not attached to classes normally will become available through the legacy system. Which specific ones are not but if you are holding out hope for a true sith Jedi, or a mirilan Bounty hunter you are probably best off waiting to see if that makes it in. If you like what is available you are good to make alts. It hasn't been stated outright of course so it could be wrong. But you lose very little by waiting if you don't like the options you have now anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The Legacy system was hyped but also hyped as not being a launch feature. They had hoped to have it implemented for launch but didn't think it was likely. To be upset that it didn't make it in at launch is a little unreasonable (not that I PERSONALLY wouldn't have rather seen legacy than warzones, Ilum, or any other PvP nonsense) As for communication they have likely given as much as they can guarantee. Systems change through the development cycle. It is a bad idea to promise something that may not make it into the production version as it just leads to people being upset that the feature is "missing" no matter how clear you are that things may change/be delayed. So they have mentioned that they plan to have upgrades to the legacy system starting with 1.2 but not given specifics. Additionally I'm pretty sure it has been pretty clearly stated that its going to be new race/class combos not wholly new races. They've been pretty clear that whole new PC races are not likely to come soon and if they did they would be available to everyone not just those who have sufficient legacy XP. Now what happens when they say "Legacy will allow for players with legacy level 4 to play True Sith Smugglers." OH Noes! we can't do that the True Sith are proud warrior guys they'd never become dirty fighting outlaws! and it doesn't make it in. the reason doesn't matter it can be Lore it can be technical (oh crap Twi's look horrible in trooper armor can't do that!), or whatever else. The point is that they say X is true then it changes (as things do) and people now have held off due to being told directly that it would be like that and when it isn't they rage over their wasted time and Bioware "lying" or misleading them "Just to draw out more subs" Frankly it's pretty clear if you read between the lines of what has been said that races not attached to classes normally will become available through the legacy system. Which specific ones are not but if you are holding out hope for a true sith Jedi, or a mirilan Bounty hunter you are probably best off waiting to see if that makes it in. If you like what is available you are good to make alts. It hasn't been stated outright of course so it could be wrong. But you lose very little by waiting if you don't like the options you have now anyway. I'm not going to go into most of your post; it's obvious we'd get nowhere other than going in circles with each other (ie. . . they only made it clear in the 11th hour that it wasn't going to be a launch thing. . . well, other than the incomplete and rushed surname feature). I will address your final paragraph, however. I agree that it is pretty clear if we read between the lines; it is what I've expected them to do with it since before launch. But therein lies the problem- "if you read between the lines". Why do we have to read between the lines, still, at this point? Why can't they simply say: it will only unlock certain species that are currently playable as certain classes to be playable as other specific classes? Instead, it is intentionally vague, soulless, marketing-speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrydurf Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I'm not going to go into most of your post; it's obvious we'd get nowhere other than going in circles with each other (ie. . . they only made it clear in the 11th hour that it wasn't going to be a launch thing. . . well, other than the incomplete and rushed surname feature). I will address your final paragraph, however. I agree that it is pretty clear if we read between the lines; it is what I've expected them to do with it since before launch. But therein lies the problem- "if you read between the lines". Why do we have to read between the lines, still, at this point? Why can't they simply say: it will only unlock certain species that are currently playable as certain classes to be playable as other specific classes? Instead, it is intentionally vague, soulless, marketing-speak. I addressed that earlier actually. Because until a feature is fully working and ready for deployment it can go away. If they announced one thing and it went away for whatever reason they now have "lied" and get even more hate than not saying it in the first place. They could use the "We intend to ... but as always things can change." language but that is ignored and the "promised feature is taken as gospel. Look at the reaction to the legacy system. They mentioned it all closed lipped for awhile and even though they said over and over in every comment that it may not be ready for launch they are getting raged at for it's limited launch functionality. Specifics can change at very late times in the development cycle particularly for a feature like this that is primarily in the category of what they choose to do not what is possible. They could say you get True sith Jedi at level 2 and miriluka operatives at level 8 but if that got changed they get more grief than not saying anything. That is why they don't give details. They will say the next expansion of legacy options is in 1.2 more than that is subject to change and that isn't the end of the system it will continue to expand so waiting on alts or anything else based on legacy is going to be a disappointing experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shokzman Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It would be cool if Legacy added your main as your companion for your alts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbozach Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I would like to see ability customisation as a legacy perk, being able to choose which skills your character will learn as it progresses as well as combination of skills (eg force choke and Lightning simultaneously) within reason restricting light side abilites to light side characters and dark ect. This would allow every character to be more unique and in my opinion enhance game play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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