Is Vader really that awesome

[Morticoccus]

It's worth remembering that Vader was very much indeed powerful enough to kill Sidious and replace him as the new emperor. That's why when Luke was confronted by him he offered a chance for his son to rule by his side. Sidious knew this, which is why he wanted Luke to kill his father. There was a deceptive power struggle going on between Vader and his master. I happen to think that if Luke had turned during his first encounter with his father, Vader would have easily defeated Sidious.

 

Vader never quite attained the title of being the most powerful Sith lord ever, but he was certainly capable of becoming such had he not turned back from the dark side.

 

Meh, Sidious wasn't much of a sith lord anyway. He was a goddamned politician, good at manipulating people, brilliant at force assisted strategy, but still rather lackluster.

 

He only became insanely powerful after dying once and getting better. New prestige class, Palpatine? =p

[AydenStorm]

Ok, so where did Luke learn his style?

 

Luke is an anomaly in many ways. He learned a bit of Soresu from Obi-Wan, but his understanding of Form V came from mimicking Vader. Later in his life Luke uses this ability to master force powers in days to level that his teachers spent decades learning. He is simply put.. Luke Skywalker.

 

Also, if he could use it doesn't that mean that despite Vader's implants that was supposed to grant him superior strength to even that of jedi, anyone can pull off his fighting style as long as they can use the force?

 

To an extent, a Jedi can use the force to make himself stronger, but his limbs are still flesh and blood. In the RotS novelization in the Duel between Anakin and Obi-wan, Kenobi could feel the bones in his arms splitting like a green tree limb from the strength of Anakin.

 

On top of that, since Luke drew on the dark side when he hacked his arm off, isn't that a pretty good indication of just how awesome the sith way of channeling really is?

 

It is faster, more seductive. The power that would take him decades to reach was at his fingertips immediately if he fell to the darkside. I mean, look at Anakin Solo, he was falling to the dark side without even realizing it.

 

You can spend decades of hard work and meditation to get a little bit better, or you can just get pissed off, "Easier and more seductive" indeed.

 

Very true

 

As for how the EU treats the force and dying, the difference between what happens when random Joe lightsider dies and when Yoda passes on is that whether the body disappears or not is probably no indication of the person becoming an actual force ghost. Most lightsiders just become one with the force like any other living thing, they become a part of it and can't (And probably wouldn't want to) manifest or do other stuff like that.

 

Particularly trained or motivated individuals of great strength in the light side like Yoda and Obi-Wan know how to sort of sidestep the issue, they become a part of the force but does not join it fully, which allows them to manifest as ghosts.

 

Take Anakin Solo for example, he literally burns himself out using the light side to keep himself in the fight despite his injuries, he dies a true jedi but he still doesn't even fade away.

 

The ability to retain their personality after death was taught by Qui-gonn, after his death. It was taught to both Yoda and Obi-wan during their long exiles.

 

Darksiders that are powerful enough goes all Alma when they die and keeps their consciousness forcibly separate from the force, basically animating it through constantly drawing on the dark side. They are able to physically interact with the world in various ways but they are more incorporeal undead than true spirits.

 

This is very true.. and is why Balance had to be restored through Anakin Skywalker. The Sith used unnatural techniques to will the force into letting them survive after death, to break the balance of nature with their power of their will.

 

Answers are in red.

[thecordler]

Ok, so where did Luke learn his style?

Also, if he could use it doesn't that mean that despite Vader's implants that was supposed to grant him superior strength to even that of jedi, anyone can pull off his fighting style as long as they can use the force?

 

On top of that, since Luke drew on the dark side when he hacked his arm off, isn't that a pretty good indication of just how awesome the sith way of channeling really is?

 

You can spend decades of hard work and meditation to get a little bit better, or you can just get pissed off, "Easier and more seductive" indeed.

 

As for how the EU treats the force and dying, the difference between what happens when random Joe lightsider dies and when Yoda passes on is that whether the body disappears or not is probably no indication of the person becoming an actual force ghost. Most lightsiders just become one with the force like any other living thing, they become a part of it and can't (And probably wouldn't want to) manifest or do other stuff like that.

 

Particularly trained or motivated individuals of great strength in the light side like Yoda and Obi-Wan know how to sort of sidestep the issue, they become a part of the force but does not join it fully, which allows them to manifest as ghosts.

 

Take Anakin Solo for example, he literally burns himself out using the light side to keep himself in the fight despite his injuries, he dies a true jedi but he still doesn't even fade away.

 

Darksiders that are powerful enough goes all Alma when they die and keeps their consciousness forcibly separate from the force, basically animating it through constantly drawing on the dark side. They are able to physically interact with the world in various ways but they are more incorporeal undead than true spirits.

 

again the EU makes excuses for letting only certain individuals pass on into force ghosts, George lucas states on commentary for the OT that by redemption and letting go of passions was how to become a force ghost, palpatine in his eyes shouldn't be able to.

 

people keep wanting to use GL as the end of all subjects but yet always seem to forget certain parts of his statements, he doesn't consider anything after ROTJ as canon to his movies and thus Force ghosting is exclusive to lightsiders in his eyes.

 

Luke naturally learned Form V, his raw power with the force and his own saber instruction from obi-wan and yoda. By the time he faced vader again nearly a year later he had refined channeling his force power into his dueling much like his father and mirrored his abilities.

 

as for the darkside providing power, YES it does do so, but only for fleeting moments, when the moment is over with they are left exposed. This is why the darkside loses agains't lightsiders, the moments where their passion empowers them is not lasting, it fades and so with it their resolve, focus, and power. The lightside is reserved, and thus in the long run he won't be run down or be at a loss for power. Countless duels with moments of darkside power however can turn the tide of any battle, for OBI WAN in TPM he was able to overpower darth maul and go pound for pound after his mentor is slain, however as the fight continued he got less and less out of his anger and was beaten, luckily he refocused the light and turned the tides on Maul. Luke accomplished the same with vader, in a moment of anger he surged his power and since he uses form V he was for those moments of rage equal to vader in power.

 

Mace windu whose style focuses on darkside forces, had to draw himself to the brink of falling into darkness when battling Sidious, and in doing so he was able to overcome him, however as the moment fades and he relents the darkside he found himself exhausted an unable to withstand his force lighting and his guard began to wane.

 

Luke was not as knowing in the force as vader and palpatine, but at that moment in ROTJ his ability to channel the force was no less then the sum of his parts, which is every bit as powerful as a fully healed Anakin skywalker. basically he was able to put an unbelievable amount of power into his saber form, and that power output was enough to best even Darth Vader who couldn't reach that level of output due to his condition Also Luke had employed instinctively a form of Dun Moch which weakened Vader's resolve lowering his anger and thus lowering his force power from hatred, the end result is his blows and blocks are weaker, a flaw that persists in D'jem So.

 

however back on topic, Vader is powerful because of 2 things, ONE he has a midichlorian count WELL over 20,000 which not even yoda has over 20,000. It's safe to assume that off the charts means that vader can have anywhere from 20,001-infinite, but i'll be kind and give him 20K-30K per cell. At 60% body, which is his condition he'd have 12,000~18,000 per cell which is still 5~7 times the needed requirement to be force sensitive. He still has without training or knowledge the force power to be multiple times greater in output than the average force sensitive.

 

think of Midichlorians like a car engine, bigger better engines = speed and power, but no matter the engine they will get the vehicle to the destination. Destination = force technique

 

Thus vader is still effective even at his weakened state was more powerful than almost every other force user out and about in the galaxy with only those like yoda and palpatine stronger in teh force. Even so, couple his amazing output power with the fact he constantly hates and summons the darkside andyou have a being that literally uses all the power he can muster at any time. Very few force users can compete with this, and thats saying something.

Edited February 16, 2012 by thecordler

[Morticoccus]

Answers are in red.

 

I thought about putting the tidbit about Qui-Gon in my original post, as at the end of the third movie Yoda and Obi-Wan are talking about him coming back with a new technique (Which I've always just assumed was the whole "Force ghost" schtick.)

 

However, because he learned the power after he was already dead, I decided to write my post as I did. After all, if you can learn to manifest after you've already bit the big one any jedi could learn it in theory.

[CptZeal]

Vader in the movies looks slow and bulky because it was the 1970s. tech was primitive, so there was only so much that could be done. Also in the OT lightsabers actually had edges, not all around glow-bat death, so the fighting style was based heavily on real world styles not back flipping laser sword fights.

 

Also, Lucas is pretty spot on about much of the EU. It's mostly crap with a few gems. A cloned Emperor defeats the purpose of the Chosen one prophecy and removes Vader's sacrifice as anything important.

 

What he said.

[Morticoccus]

again the EU makes excuses for letting only certain individuals pass on into force ghosts, George lucas states on commentary for the OT that by redemption and letting go of passions was how to become a force ghost, palpatine in his eyes shouldn't be able to.

 

people keep wanting to use GL as the end of all subjects but yet always seem to forget certain parts of his statements, he doesn't consider anything after ROTJ as canon to his movies and thus Force ghosting is exclusive to lightsiders in his eyes.

 

Luke naturally learned Form V, his raw power with the force and his own saber instruction from obi-wan and yoda. By the time he faced vader again nearly a year later he had refined channeling his force power into his dueling much like his father and mirrored his abilities.

 

as for the darkside providing power, YES it does do so, but only for fleeting moments, when the moment is over with they are left exposed. This is why the darkside loses agains't lightsiders, the moments where their passion empowers them is not lasting, it fades and so with it their resolve, focus, and power. The lightside is reserved, and thus in the long run he won't be run down or be at a loss for power. Countless duels with moments of darkside power however can turn the tide of any battle, for OBI WAN in TPM he was able to overpower darth maul and go pound for pound after his mentor is slain, however as the fight continued he got less and less out of his anger and was beaten, luckily he refocused the light and turned the tides on Maul. Luke accomplished the same with vader, in a moment of anger he surged his power and since he uses form V he was for those moments of rage equal to vader in power.

 

Mace windu whose style focuses on darkside forces, had to draw himself to the brink of falling into darkness when battling Sidious, and in doing so he was able to overcome him, however as the moment fades and he relents the darkside he found himself exhausted an unable to withstand his force lighting and his guard began to wane.

 

Luke was not as knowing in the force as vader and palpatine, but at that moment in ROTJ his ability to channel the force was no less then the sum of his parts, which is every bit as powerful as a fully healed Anakin skywalker. basically he was able to put an unbelievable amount of power into his saber form, and that power output was enough to best even Darth Vader who couldn't reach that level of output due to his condition Also Luke had employed instinctively a form of Dun Moch which weakened Vader's resolve lowering his anger and thus lowering his force power from hatred, the end result is his blows and blocks are weaker, a flaw that persists in D'jem So.

 

So basically the dark side lets you burst DPS. I wonder how that relates to Annihilation Warriors...

[thecordler]

So basically the dark side lets you burst DPS. I wonder how that relates to Annihilation Warriors...

 

yes Darkside is burst DPS, we should label it as so

 

to quote ESB:

 

Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?

Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

 

never does he state honestly why if the darkside is more pound for pound better than the lightside, he notes that it is quicker, easier, and more seductive than the lightside.

 

Jedi require large focus and time to reach power but once they do gain it they have it in spades.The sith do not; sith reach power in seconds but what good is that power after those seconds are gone and the moments of passion fade, however those like palpatine and plagueis know this and do not let the darkside crutch them, both were stated in their novels and backgrounds to understand the weakness of passion and the darkside and both take a very jedi like stance on using the force, albeit through the darkside, learning to create lasting longer passions that keep them empowered.

[Argolisk]

I think it needs to be said again that we can't really factor in Vader's "awesomeness" with regard to how his duels with Luke went. In neither fight was he trying to kill Luke. On Bespin his goal was to get him in the carbonite - when Luke showed some resolve and lept out of the chamber, Vader spent the rest of the duel testing him to see just how much "Obi-wan" really HAD taught him. The second Luke scored a lucky hit, he lost a hand. Remember, Vader at this point wanted him as an apprentice. He had no reason to want to kill him.

 

By the time of the Battle of Endor, the Anakin part of Vader had begun to emerge again. Luke even sensed it. On their duel aboard the DS II, Vader was really just going through the motions. He was conflicted. Twenty years of Sith dogma from Sidious had him believing the only way to be with his son was for Luke to turn to the Dark Side, but here's Luke telling him "No, there's still good in you. Come with ME." And as any athlete can tell you, if your heart's not in the game, you're not performing at your best.

 

I'll stand by what I said in my earlier post. In George Lucas' mind, Darth Vader and Darth Sidious were the two most powerful Dark Side practitioners in history. Vader's potential should have had him lifting cities like apples (I might be exaggerating a BIT there). Unfortunately, the way the fights were coordinated in the OT just don't show us what he was truly capable of.

[RixoFutu]

I just think that Vader doesn't have much space in movies to prove his strenght and abilities. Or maybe there is a reason for that. In that time in whole universe nobody was challenge to him so he only used some choke here, some choke there and that was enough to scare everyone to death.

 

I believe he was very powerfull even in his armor. And reason that Luke beat him ... well, i think somewhere in deep mind Vader loved Luke and definitely he didn't want to kill him. His light side fights his dark side and and that made him weak so Luke could beat him in the end. And don't forget that Luke use his all hate in final fight with Vader, that made him very strong.

[_Zorth_]

I just think that Vader doesn't have much space in movies to prove his strenght and abilities. Or maybe there is a reason for that. In that time in whole universe nobody was challenge to him so he only used some choke here, some choke there and that was enough to scare everyone to death.

 

I believe he was very powerfull even in his armor. And reason that Luke beat him ... well, i think somewhere in deep mind Vader loved Luke and definitely he didn't want to kill him. His light side fights his dark side and and that made him weak so Luke could beat him in the end. And don't forget that Luke use his all hate in final fight with Vader, that made him very strong.

 

You got it right, Although the reason we never see Vader/Sidious beasting on people in the movies is..

 

1. They didn't have the technology back then to make them do cooler stuff, Although for that time it was veery cool.

 

2. Ever since the EU, there has been an infaltion of power. New force users seem moer powerful than the last, In respect to Vader & Sidious books/novels make their feats more impressive to make them keep their places as most powerful sith ever.

 

3. The writers, directors of SW probably never wanted it to be about the powers as much as about an adventure in a galaxy far, far away.

 

[Asuka]

Vader was nearly killed by a handful of Jedi in an ambush and was only saved by stormtrooper reinforcements however anyone well versed in force lightning would have simply pwned him but since it was only Sidious and Vader there was really nobody capable.

[Sheyrd]

To be honest, I think almost ALL the major OT characters are made more powerful than they should be, simply because it's George Lucas's original characters, especially Luke, Vader/Anakin, and Sidious, a lot of people take Lucas's word as law, personally, I don't because the Star Wars Universe, thanks to all the EU has gone far beyond EU, and if you go by Lucas's words, I'm pretty sure he said Palpatine died on Endor, he never had any clones, etc. GL doesn't care about EU, he wants the OT characters to be the most powerful in Star Wars, because he came up with the idea of them, at the very beginning of Star wars.

 

Well you are saying the CREATOR of SW universe is wrong ummm wow lots of stones there.

 

Thats like telling Stan Lee all his comic hero's are fail becuase he made them. I would think the creator of the universe should be law versus all the wannabe's that want to be George.

 

Now to keep things in perspective. The timelines should be in accordance of when it was prevelant. Anikin, yoda, sidious, luke, ben are in one timeline and the most powerful beings in the galaxy.

 

In SWTOR we have the current emporer and Whatever toon you are playing in jedi or sith as being the most powerful as this game is telling the story of YOUR Character and where it ranks in the galaxy.

[meshade]

Vader would force crush my character from a different part of the galaxy, sitting comfortable in his space ship, something mr Darth Baras couldn't ever hope to do.

 

Hell I heard Sith Emperor gets served by Jedi Knight player, I say Vader could interrupt their petty dispute and take them both on :>

[BrandonSM]

Vader was nearly killed by a handful of Jedi in an ambush and was only saved by stormtrooper reinforcements however anyone well versed in force lightning would have simply pwned him but since it was only Sidious and Vader there was really nobody capable.

 

..? If you read the comic he took out 5 of them. And nobody with Lightning coud simply "pwn" Vader. Sidious has the most powerful lightning of all time and yet Vader still managed to take it while being heavily injured(Hit in the shoulder and no hand. You know.)

[MajinEddie]

So you want to know if vader is awsome. OK. Do you like a guy who. 1 Crys like a bitcz all the time with crap like he did with padme. Rewach episode 2. He crys more than the guys from twlight i bet.2 Do you like a guy who was always someones lacky? He was never a master and always under someone. Never a jedi master and he was always under palpatine. Even one of the ship captins told him what to do when he was chokeing the guy at the table.# Do you think its awsome to lose all your most important fights? He lost to Obi/Starkiller and luke. The sad part is that luke only trained for 2 years. Hell you cant even become a kungfu master in 2 years. Yet the kid with less midclorians then him pwned him with such little traineing. So if you think that someone who crys alot. Get beatup half the time and was always someones bitcz is awsome then i guess he is.

[Aximand]

So you want to know if vader is awsome. OK. Do you like a guy who. 1 Crys like a bitcz all the time with crap like he did with padme. Rewach episode 2. He crys more than the guys from twlight i bet.2 Do you like a guy who was always someones lacky? He was never a master and always under someone. Never a jedi master and he was always under palpatine. Even one of the ship captins told him what to do when he was chokeing the guy at the table.# Do you think its awsome to lose all your most important fights? He lost to Obi/Starkiller and luke. The sad part is that luke only trained for 2 years. Hell you cant even become a kungfu master in 2 years. Yet the kid with less midclorians then him pwned him with such little traineing. So if you think that someone who crys alot. Get beatup half the time and was always someones bitcz is awsome then i guess he is.

 

Oh my God, your ignorance astounds me.

 

1) He cried once that I remember, and that was after he found his mothers mutilated body. Yea, that's such a ***** move.

 

2) He was a Jedi Master in all but name, the only reason he didn't get the title is because Palpatine pushed for him to join the council, and that was just another move from Palpatine to make the Jedi look even worse (first Jedi in history to join the council but not be granted the title of Master? Yea, I'd be pissed too).

 

3) Luke Skywalker had the exact same potential as Anakin, he was Anakin's potential realized, that means that he is 200% more powerful than Darth Sidious ever was. During both of his fights with Darth Vader, he was mastering Lightsaber stances on the fly.

 

I can only conclude that you're either trolling, or you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, which only makes it worse because you're trying to argue from an informed position without being informed.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Aximand

[MajinEddie]

Oh my God, your ignorance astounds me.

 

1) He cried once that I remember, and that was after he found his mothers mutilated body. Yea, that's such a ***** move.

 

2) He was a Jedi Master in all but name, the only reason he didn't get the title is because Palpatine pushed for him to join the council, and that was just another move from Palpatine to make the Jedi look even worse (first Jedi in history to join the council but not be granted the title of Master? Yea, I'd be pissed too).

 

3) Luke Skywalker had the exact same potential as Anakin, he was Anakin's potential realized, that means that he is 200% more powerful than Darth Sidious ever was. During both of his fights with Darth Vader, he was mastering Lightsaber stances on the fly.

 

I can only conclude that you're either trolling, or you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, which only makes it worse because you're trying to argue from an informed position without being informed.

 

OMG a fanboy is angry.

[PriestOfSin]

He is awesome because even though Palpatine (probably) designed his armor with flaws in mind to ensure his servitude, Vader still kicked major behind.

[Aloro]

Hell I heard Sith Emperor gets served by Jedi Knight player, I say Vader could interrupt their petty dispute and take them both on :>

 

 

No, it's the Voice of the Emperor that the JK kills; basically a body the Emperor can possess and use. This is revealed in the Sith Warrior storyline.

 

[Battilea]

..? If you read the comic he took out 5 of them. And nobody with Lightning coud simply "pwn" Vader. Sidious has the most powerful lightning of all time and yet Vader still managed to take it while being heavily injured(Hit in the shoulder and no hand. You know.)

 

The whole lightning thing is rather silly anyway. If you watch the fight between Windu and Palpatine, Windu stops most of the force lightning with his lightsaber. When Vader gets zapped, he doesn't have his. When Palpatine tries to zap Yoda, Yoda stops it from zapping him at all, using the force. The reason why Vader gets zapped is simple: he wanted to save Luke and the best way to do that was to chuck the Emperor down the shaft.

 

Force Lightning is overrated. Good for torturing the helpless. Not so good against a Jedi ready for it.

[Aximand]

OMG a fanboy is angry.

 

You can think that if it makes you feel better about being wrong.

[VanorDM]

Oh my God, your ignorance astounds me.

 

I will never understand why people like the person you were quoting there... Bother to post in a Lore discussion, when they clearly know so little about the canon lore being discussed.

 

Like the people in a different thread trying to say that the Emperor in this game is the most powerful force user ever, without any real understanding of just how powerful people like Darth Sidius and Grand Master Luke really were.

[MajinEddie]

I will never understand why people like the person you were quoting there... Bother to post in a Lore discussion, when they clearly know so little about the canon lore being discussed.

 

Like the people in a different thread trying to say that the Emperor in this game is the most powerful force user ever, without any real understanding of just how powerful people like Darth Sidius and Grand Master Luke really were.

 

What did i say that was not canon? Did he not lose to Obi and starkiller? yes he did. As strong sure but was he ever a jedi master? Nope. Was he ever over palpatine? Nope. Was he all whyne about padme and whel everything in episode 2 n 3? Yep I didnot make this stuff up. Its all in the movies and a game. Its you fanboys who only want to see vader a an awsome sith lord. Thats fine and all but dont turn a blind eye when someone shows you the truth.

[Darth_Malevolent]

Vader can exert several tons of kinetic force at once through the Force, and he was sand-bagging whenever he fought Luke in the OT. If he wanted Luke dead, he would have moved faster than Luke's eyes would have been capable of tracking at the time, and hit him with a blow powerful enough to rend durasteel. Vader was a scary son of a *****.

 

Dear God.... so tired of hearing the invisible lore producing woulda coulda that never existed till after the films which now seem to escalate Vader to God-like abilities after the fact... Sidious can create force storms.... blah blah, why have a death star then? .... so tired of ppl like you

[meshade]

Dear God.... so tired of hearing the invisible lore producing woulda coulda that never existed till after the films which now seem to escalate Vader to God-like abilities after the fact... Sidious can create force storms.... blah blah, why have a death star then? .... so tired of ppl like you

 

Damn I have to agree with this, every time I see people saying that Sidious could devour whole planets and create wormholes and some force storms that consumed entire fleet...

I just facepalm at the author of this crap, Palpatine was powerful, the most powerful yea he could influence people, mastered lightsaber and other cool force abilities but come on!