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Posted

I posted this in another thread but that thread was closed and I think it bears repeating. All too often I hear players crying about "balance" in an MMO, and how PvP isn't balanced (usually these complaints immediately follow getting owned by some particular class in PvP.) it comes as no surprise that, already, the cry of "nerf this, nerf that!" has already risen in TOR as well. Well, I offer you a different perspective on gameplay balance. I personally think the game is pretty well balanced NOW. The issue, imo, is in how people percieve "balance".

 

People nowadays have this crazy idea that having balanced classes in an MMO means that, "all things being equal (gear, player skill level, buffs, etc), any class should be able to beat any other class 50% of the time in a 1 vs 1 fight". Well, I have startling news for you, my friends. That is NOT the definition of balance. The simple game of rock, paper, scissors is "balanced", yet rock will NEVER beat paper. Balancing PvP in an MMO is rarely about balancing a series of 1 vs 1 encounters so much as it is about balancing team dynamics and synergy. Without creating a game of characters of completely equal skillsets, the sort of balance you're asking for will never be achieved.

 

And even in the area of 1 vs 1 combat, imho, the classes are still pretty well balanced. Ever played Street Fighter? If two players of equal skill level fought, one using Ryu and the other using, let's say, Dhaalsim, the player using Ryu is likely going to win more often. His skill set was superior, and a player using the inferior character had to hope they could throw their opponent off using unorthodox tactics; and even then, you knew you had an uphill battle on your hands. Yet, the game was still balanced. Different characters had strengths in different areas, and with skillful enough play any character could be used to beat any other character in a given match.

 

Now, I'll grant you one signigicant difference; in an MMO you can't just select a "better" class for the next match, and decisions about class choice have more permanence. Even still, rumors of class imbalance have been greatly exaggerated, as they always are. First, stop expecting "perfect" balance in a game that pits 16 different playstyles with drastically different abilities against each other, because that's just stupid. And second, get over this idea that if any class has any percieved advantages over another class that gameplay balance is then non-existent. That isn't what "balance" in an MMO is all about.

Posted (edited)

You can't compare a 1vs1 fighting game to MMO balance.

 

MMOs are balanced based on the abilities of your character and the support abilities of the characters in your group.

 

If a 1 vs 1 fighting game has one character with a better skill set than another, then that is imbalanced no matter how you look at it. The inferior character can't rely on support from teammates and only has to rely on their skills. But if their skills are worse off then their opponent's skills by default, then there is no point in even playing the match. In a fighting game, all characters need to be evenly balanced with 50/50 chance of winning no matter what. This needs to be done even through the fact that each character has different techniques.

 

One character can't be a rock, another can't be scissors and another can't be paper. All characters need to have a way to throw each of those moves in their own special way. If one will always beat another, then that means the game is already over once you choose your character and that defeats the entire purpose of the game.

Edited by Soul_of_Flames
Posted
You can't compare a 1vs1 fighting game to MMO balance.

 

MMOs are balanced based on the abilities of your character and the support abilities of the characters in your group.

 

If a 1 vs 1 fighting game has one character with a better skill set than another, then that is imbalanced no matter how you look at it. The inferior character can't rely on support from teammates and only has to rely on their skills. But if their skills are worse off then their opponent's skills by default, then there is no point in even playing the match. In a fighting game, all characters need to be evenly balanced with 50/50 chance of winning no matter what. This needs to be done even through the fact that each character has different techniques.

 

One character can't be a rock, another can't be scissors and another can't be paper. All characters need to have a way to throw each of those movies in their own special way.

 

The reason you can't compare MMO balance to fighting game balance is because MMOs are based around team play, you're right - I guess you missed the whole first half of my original post where I stated so. The second half was regarding, "even looking at the game from a 1 vs 1 standpoint, the classes are still pretty balanced.

 

With regard to your statements about single player games that's where we disagree. In any fighting game I've ever played, there were absolutely players whose skill sets were worse "by default" than others. Yes, of course those "worse" characters weren't so gimped that they could never beat the "Ryu" of the game, but they definitely possessed an inferior skill set. That doesn't just go for Street Fighter but ANY fighting game, at least any fighting game I've ever played. I don't know about you, but I never went into a match using someone other than a particular game's "top dog" thinking "there's no point in even playing this match". I suppose we just have different schools of thought in that way.

 

As you said earlier though, this kind of mismatching of skills is unavoidable in an MMO because of the fact that the game isn't balanced solely (or even primarily) around such 1 vs 1 encounters. You're disagreeing with me, but what you're saying really supports my very point.

Posted (edited)

I dont want 100% balanced in a mmo. this is the draw for me in mmo PvP is that it is not balanced. I like to min max my gear, my build, work hard to get gear and perfect my rotation and reflexes and what skills to use when so I can crush my opponents.

 

If you want balanced, go play BF3 or GW1 where all gear is the same and everyone is the same power so that PvP becomes boring whoever gets the jump on someone PvP.

Edited by sheisty
Posted

i always chose zangief for the handicap, traded speed and abilities for the 1 hit kill technique that could happen at any moment!

 

but yea, rock-paper-scissors = best balance period, so long as every spec has a counter and every class has different specs then the game is balanced for pvp, now in pve classes are balanced when the best dps spec is equal to all the other best dps specs of other classes, and imo this is so super easy to do, but devs are stupid and it will never be achieved. healing is balanced when every healer and do the same job, tanking is never balanced as so long as there is class diversity 1 tank will be better at another tank at any given job, but that's how it should be...

Posted

i play a dps guardian, and there's even a 'balance' debate with that character in vigilance vs focus spec (essentially 1 on 1 damage vs aoe damage). i believe they are balanced overall but in a duel, the vigilance spec should win, all other things equal. the difference is that if there are many enemies, the focus spec can deal a lot more damage to the group much quicker.

when i was vigilance spec, there wasn't a class that could handle the damage i dealt in a 1v1, but IA's were impossible to get to and drove me crazy, advantage but still balance.

with a focus spec i have an easier time with the agents as i can zealous leap to them, but i can't do enough 1v1 damage to handle bounty hunters, also advantages for particular classes, but still balance.

as a guardian, i usually don't have a lot of trouble with sorcs, but i hear everyone else complain about them, so i'm gonna have to assume they are also balanced.

Posted
The reason you can't compare MMO balance to fighting game balance is because MMOs are based around team play, you're right - I guess you missed the whole first half of my original post where I stated so. The second half was regarding, "even looking at the game from a 1 vs 1 standpoint, the classes are still pretty balanced.

 

With regard to your statements about single player games that's where we disagree. In any fighting game I've ever played, there were absolutely players whose skill sets were worse "by default" than others. Yes, of course those "worse" characters weren't so gimped that they could never beat the "Ryu" of the game, but they definitely possessed an inferior skill set. That doesn't just go for Street Fighter but ANY fighting game, at least any fighting game I've ever played. I don't know about you, but I never went into a match using someone other than a particular game's "top dog" thinking "there's no point in even playing this match". I suppose we just have different schools of thought in that way.

 

As you said earlier though, this kind of mismatching of skills is unavoidable in an MMO because of the fact that the game isn't balanced solely (or even primarily) around such 1 vs 1 encounters. You're disagreeing with me, but what you're saying really supports my very point.

I'm not disagreeing with your argument, I was disagreeing with your example. If I disagreed with your argument, I would have said so.

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