No reason to level up a character right now

[Blavatsky]

i dont even have my main to 50 yet .

 

 

And this guy is bored of his EIGHT Characters...

[PibbyPib]

The storyline will always be there thats the niche of bioware's design. I just think its limiting in some areas.

 

That's definitely true. I thought LotRO was held back by it's lore, but they made a big effort to give players options while staying true as possible to their overall setting. I think SWtOR is currently doing a fairly poor job of that, erring way too often on the side of limiting the player.

 

I like the game quite a bit, but I hope Bioware learns to loosen their grip on the players' experience as time moves on.

Edited February 14, 2012 by PibbyPib

[Arbeiten]

So you think that bioware wont take the same path as wow and make leveling faster in the future?

 

If they do, I'm done. I quit WoW for a reason. Making leveling faster was just one of MANY poor decisions Blizzard made that simply made the game too easy. If something of this nature does happen (Faster leveling, Dungeon nerfing, those stupid LFG queues and their bonuses).

 

If any one of these things happen, then it's obvious BW is doing the same thing I hated to see happen in WoW.

[Daedricshots]

If they do, I'm done. I quit WoW for a reason. Making leveling faster was just one of MANY poor decisions Blizzard made that simply made the game too easy. If something of this nature does happen (Faster leveling, Dungeon nerfing, those stupid LFG queues and their bonuses).

 

If any one of these things happen, then it's obvious BW is doing the same thing I hated to see happen in WoW.

 

Why does a game have to be a time consuming chore? "Too easy" what does that even mean? Games are for entertainment not for clocking in and wasting obscene amounts of time on.

[LeMage]

Why not just play to have fun? Doesnt matter what comes next if you are having fun now. So it may be easier for some in future or the legacy system actually does something more than give a surname (which I wish I could turn off).

 

If you wait for what might be you miss out. Why chase some datacrons now, maybe in 12 months they will all be at ground level?

[Arbeiten]

Why does a game have to be a time consuming chore? "Too easy" what does that even mean? Games are for entertainment not for clocking in and wasting obscene amounts of time on.

 

What I mean by saying this is that I want to feel that sense of accomplishment. (Personally I think leveling is fast compared to other MMOs as it is, but even so...) Hitting level 50 for the first time, progressing and clearing a new dungeon or flashpoint (without nerfs).

 

For example, my guild wasn't geared enough to clear ICC pre-nerf. By the time we got to that point in progression, the content had been nerfed and made easier for the general public. I would rather wipe 100 times trying to clear content than the progression given to us.

 

1-50 may not be a huge challenge, but making it easier is basically saying, "Here's 10 free levels, we curved the exp gain from 30-50 by x%".

[ArchivedData]

Why does a game have to be a time consuming chore? "Too easy" what does that even mean? Games are for entertainment not for clocking in and wasting obscene amounts of time on.

 

EDIT: Arbeiten beat me to it, basically.

 

Some people like the games that require a standard work-week to progress. Especially in the old days of MMOs. When it takes a long time to get a piece of gear, or title, etc., not only did you feel more accomplished, but it also made a statement to the community.

 

Obviously, times have changed and the market needs to adapt to the "new majority" of gamers - the so-called "instant gratification" group - which means us veterans are left here, powering our way through content.

 

Ultimately, it just comes down to tastes and preferences. Some of the playerbase will be more "old school" and like long, difficult progressions. Others like the more modern fast-paced, everyone should get a chance to raid, model.

Edited February 14, 2012 by ArchivedData

[Daedricshots]

EDIT: Arbeiten beat me to it, basically.

 

Some people like the games that require a standard work-week to progress. Especially in the old days of MMOs. When it takes a long time to get a piece of gear, or title, etc., not only did you feel more accomplished, but it also made a statement to the community.

 

Obviously, times have changed and the market needs to adapt to the "new majority" of gamers - the so-called "instant gratification" group - which means us veterans are left here, powering our way through content.

 

Ultimately, it just comes down to tastes and preferences. Some of the playerbase will be more "old school" and like long, difficult progressions. Others like the more modern fast-paced, everyone should get a chance to raid, model.

 

Which comes down to the stigma of "casual". People (probably like myself) that dont have tons of disposable time to play a video game. So where's the balance? Is there one? How can you make an old school grinder but cater to the masses (which by the way are mostly casuals and wow is proof of that) at the same time?

[SamuraBob_Fl]

Why does a game have to be a time consuming chore? "Too easy" what does that even mean? Games are for entertainment not for clocking in and wasting obscene amounts of time on.

 

I think you're conflating two things.

 

I don't like time consuming grinds, and that's actually one of the things I like about this game, how they put effort into making the leveling game fun.

 

That said, games aren't fun if they're too easy. If a game just involves you mindlessly pushing the same buttons over and over with little chance of failure, what's interesting about that? There has to be some chance of failure and some obstacle to overcome to make a game a game, and if you disagree you're Zynga (Sorry, I couldn't resist).

Edited February 14, 2012 by SamuraBob_Fl

[Daedricshots]

I think you're conflating two things.

 

I don't like time consuming grinds, and that's actually one of the things I like about this game, how they put effort into making the leveling game fun.

 

That said, games aren't fun if they're too easy. If a game just involves you mindlessly pushing the same buttons over and over with little chance of failure, what's interesting about that? There has to be some chance of failure and some obstacle to overcome to make a game a game, and if you disagree you're Zynga (Sorry, I couldn't resist).

 

The endgame itself isnt that way thats why max level raids take longer to design and accomplish. What im saying is the leveling process in most mmo is just to waste time. There is no benefit from questing that will help you at max level. All the boars or bad guys that you killed were just there to serve as a time sink. Trivializing that part doesnt trivialize the entire game. Just like daily quests you do mean zero other than a way to get money but they're easy as well.

[ArchivedData]

Which comes down to the stigma of "casual". People (probably like myself) that dont have tons of disposable time to play a video game. So where's the balance? Is there one? How can you make an old school grinder but cater to the masses (which by the way are mostly casuals and wow is proof of that) at the same time?

 

In MY opinion, I'd see two different end-game progression paths. It'd basically go like this:

 

Max level -> Dailies/Crafting/PvP -> Hard Modes -> Path 1 OR Path 2

 

Path 1: These could be essentially the "Tier 1" raids, not too difficult, not a cakewalk if undergeared. These bosses would have limited tactics/abilities, deal less damage, etc. Let's sub abbreviate this path as "a":

 

Tier 1a (Columi)-> Tier 2a (Tionese) -> Tier 3a (Rakata)

 

Path 2: This is the "hard mode" variant of the same raids. All abilities, full damage dealt, etc. We'll sub abbreviate this path as "b":

 

Tier 1b (Columi)-> Tier 2b (Tionese) -> Tier 3b (Rakata)

 

Colors correspond to gear equivalency. So the easier path still gets "good" gear, but the ones who take the difficult path ultimately get the better gear for putting in more work.

 

Again, just MY opinion.

Edited February 14, 2012 by ArchivedData

[Daedricshots]

In MY opinion, I'd see two different end-game progression paths. It'd basically go like this:

 

Max level -> Dailies/Crafting/PvP -> Hard Modes -> Path 1 OR Path 2

 

Path 1: These could be essentially the "Tier 1" raids, not too difficult, not a cakewalk if undergeared. These bosses would have limited tactics/abilities, deal less damage, etc. Let's sub abbreviate this path as "a":

 

Tier 1a (Columi)-> Tier 2a (Tionese) -> Tier 3a (Rakata)

 

Path 2: This is the "hard mode" variant of the same raids. All abilities, full damage dealt, etc. We'll sub abbreviate this path as "b":

 

Tier 1b (Columi)-> Tier 2b (Tionese) -> Tier 3b (Rakata)

 

Colors correspond to gear equivalency. So the easier path still gets "good" gear, but the ones who take the difficult path ultimately get the better gear for putting in more work.

 

Again, just MY opinion.

 

Isnt that already the design format to some degree with heroics and normal modes?

[ArchivedData]

Isnt that already the design format to some degree with heroics and normal modes?

 

I think it's supposed to be. From what I've heard though, the HM/NM ops are currently bugged pretty badly. But you also have to balance difficulty in there, if I recall correctly, WoW's heroic raids just buffed HP and added a skill or two - nothing too challenging.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

The endgame itself isnt that way thats why max level raids take longer to design and accomplish. What im saying is the leveling process in most mmo is just to waste time. There is no benefit from questing that will help you at max level. All the boars or bad guys that you killed were just there to serve as a time sink. Trivializing that part doesnt trivialize the entire game. Just like daily quests you do mean zero other than a way to get money but they're easy as well.

 

I don't think looking at it in terms of benefits really makes sense.

 

Maybe my NES is showing, but you didn't get any benefits for your character from beating a level in Super Mario or Ghosts and Goblins. I wouldn't call all the fights before Goro a grind.

 

Don't get me wrong, character progression is an important point of RPG's, but there's always got to be more progression to keep things going, so previous upgrades will become moot. You can't focus only on upgrades, I think.

[Dranzen]

Right now im sitting on about 8 chars all around level 24-26. Today while leveling up one of my toons i just got the feeling that this is a waste of time. Why? Simple. Because in about 6 mos i know that bioware (just like wow) will introduce something to make leveling probably 25-30% faster, which makes me think why bother leveling up a toon now?

 

This also makes me stop trying to reach max level from reading the pvp forum where people that did the grind for bm are mad because its now easier to get better gear.

 

I went through this same process in wow as i watched them trivialize leveling with recruit a friend and heirlooms so am i wrong to wait?

 

Well the legacy system might bring some interesting changes, but leveling in this game is more about enjoying the story than just leveling. If you're enjoying any one of the stories, keep playing that class. Some of the stories are just amazing.

 

The question is are you enjoying the stories? The game is not going anywhere any time soon so take your time I guess.

[Daedricshots]

I don't think looking at it in terms of benefits really makes sense.

 

Maybe my NES is showing, but you didn't get any benefits for your character from beating a level in Super Mario or Ghosts and Goblins. I wouldn't call all the fights before Goro a grind.

 

Don't get me wrong, character progression is an important point of RPG's, but there's always got to be more progression to keep things going, so previous upgrades will become moot. You can't focus only on upgrades, I think.

 

I have nothing against progression as long as there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Some one could argue that questing and leveling is there to "learn your class" which i've heard before. Even with the story-based system does the story matter after you're done? It wouldnt to me.

[Daedricshots]

Well the legacy system might bring some interesting changes, but leveling in this game is more about enjoying the story than just leveling. If you're enjoying any one of the stories, keep playing that class. Some of the stories are just amazing.

 

The question is are you enjoying the stories? The game is not going anywhere any time soon so take your time I guess.

 

I kinda elaborated on this in some earlier posts of this thread but the story for each character needs some room for improvement. A bit limiting imo and if bw is hinging their game soley on the prospect of story for a selling point i dont think that really holds a lot of water, with me at least.

[DarthMemnock]

Right now im sitting on about 8 chars all around level 24-26. Today while leveling up one of my toons i just got the feeling that this is a waste of time. Why? Simple. Because in about 6 mos i know that bioware (just like wow) will introduce something to make leveling probably 25-30% faster, which makes me think why bother leveling up a toon now?

 

This also makes me stop trying to reach max level from reading the pvp forum where people that did the grind for bm are mad because its now easier to get better gear.

 

I went through this same process in wow as i watched them trivialize leveling with recruit a friend and heirlooms so am i wrong to wait?

 

IMO you'll always be waiting then... because mmo's are really never complete, always adding and taking away... and I hope the same for SWTOR. I would like to think they'll make changes that will make you want to play other than a fast leveling experience.

[Kaelshi]

I would just like to point out that a lot of people seem to forget that it, quite frankly, sucked to level up in some of the older games. Anyone ever leveled up in Asheron's Call? It was like pulling teeth - it was decidedly NOT fun. This is of course an opinion but speak to some ppl who played it.

 

Quite frankly there is an obvious correlation between easing of leveling and increase in subs(not saying direct causation) - a lot of people forget that when WoW was release there were multiple existing, established mmo's up and running. WoW filled a vacuum - that of the truly casual player. The term casual is diluted these days(so many people think playing 5 hours a day makes them casual for some reason) but, despite the bugs and issues, the accessibility of WoW and the comparatively ease of leveling was a HUGE draw for people. There were obvious other draws such as a strong recognizable universe, but that alone has proven over the years to not be enough to draw people away(lord of the rings online, conan, dungeons and dragons etc. barely dented wow's subs)

 

I've always wondered if a game company said screw it - there is no leveling experience. We are going all-out end-game content. You start the game at level 50 and there is no other levels. They just focus entirely on a bunch of end-game content. They could even tie it into a story - so instead of level progression dungeons/raids are opened up as you progress(remember, there could ostensibly be a TON of them since they arent worried about the leveling experience).

 

You start out with a basic setup of equipment that leaves you at least capable to do the opening raids/dungeons. They could include all sorts of other side-quests/story elements for who knows what but no leveling up.

 

shrug - who knows I think they would get a lot of people trying it out and if the end-game content was sound...why would we leave

[Daedricshots]

I would just like to point out that a lot of people seem to forget that it, quite frankly, sucked to level up in some of the older games. Anyone ever leveled up in Asheron's Call? It was like pulling teeth - it was decidedly NOT fun. This is of course an opinion but speak to some ppl who played it.

 

Quite frankly there is an obvious correlation between easing of leveling and increase in subs(not saying direct causation) - a lot of people forget that when WoW was release there were multiple existing, established mmo's up and running. WoW filled a vacuum - that of the truly casual player. The term casual is diluted these days(so many people think playing 5 hours a day makes them casual for some reason) but, despite the bugs and issues, the accessibility of WoW and the comparatively ease of leveling was a HUGE draw for people. There were obvious other draws such as a strong recognizable universe, but that alone has proven over the years to not be enough to draw people away(lord of the rings online, conan, dungeons and dragons etc. barely dented wow's subs)

 

I've always wondered if a game company said screw it - there is no leveling experience. We are going all-out end-game content. You start the game at level 50 and there is no other levels. They just focus entirely on a bunch of end-game content. They could even tie it into a story - so instead of level progression dungeons/raids are opened up as you progress(remember, there could ostensibly be a TON of them since they arent worried about the leveling experience).

 

You start out with a basic setup of equipment that leaves you at least capable to do the opening raids/dungeons. They could include all sorts of other side-quests/story elements for who knows what but no leveling up.

 

shrug - who knows I think they would get a lot of people trying it out and if the end-game content was sound...why would we leave

 

Good post.

 

Guild Wars does this to some extent with their pvp. You can start pvping at max level with max gear so that everyone is on equal ground. Its an interesting concept to remove leveling all together sort of an inversion instead of gaining levels you are just improving your existing level (which is what you do at endgame anyway).

[SamuraBob_Fl]

I have nothing against progression as long as there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Some one could argue that questing and leveling is there to "learn your class" which i've heard before. Even with the story-based system does the story matter after you're done? It wouldnt to me.

 

Maybe I'm not being clear...

 

My point is, have you ever played and enjoyed a game that didn't upgrade your character at all? Just because upgrades are possible doesn't make everything that doesn't give you a stat bonus irrelevant.

[Kaelshi]

Good post.

 

Guild Wars does this to some extent with their pvp. You can start pvping at max level with max gear so that everyone is on equal ground. Its an interesting concept to remove leveling all together sort of an inversion instead of gaining levels you are just improving your existing level (which is what you do at endgame anyway).

 

it would almost be like transferring the basic FPS experience over to mmorpg. I know fps have lately implemented improvements based on gaining experience/completing missions etc. but that is more in line with what you said about improving your character, not so much a level-up system.

 

a fresh toon in an fps might not be as advanced but can still take out a more advanced toon.

 

The end-game would have to be pretty polished from the get-go though, I can already hear the howls if there were issues with end-game content in a game that only has end-game content

[Daedricshots]

Maybe I'm not being clear...

 

My point is, have you ever played and enjoyed a game that didn't upgrade your character at all? Just because upgrades are possible doesn't make everything that doesn't give you a stat bonus irrelevant.

 

Well that gets into a whole different debate about the question of relevance

[areto]

Wasn't it about 5 years before wow rejigged the leveling to be easier?

[Daedricshots]

Wasn't it about 5 years before wow rejigged the leveling to be easier?

 

I dont remember off the top of my head it was recruit a friend then heirlooms.