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How do you convince PUGs that Jug DPS is worth taking along?


Toogeloo

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I swear most people think Juggernauts have 3 Tanking trees or something.

 

Since specing Vengeance, I have been turned away from 2 groups because they thought I was a tank trying to take a dps slot, I have been begrudgingly taken on HM FP, but told at the end that though my dps was good, I should have rolled a Merc so I could really tear it up, and I have been told by at least 3 different people that Juggernauts are not a dps class.

 

 

 

It's already hard enough getting a DPS slot in PUGs at times, so how do you overcome the stigma that you aren't actually a DPS class?

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I swear most people think Juggernauts have 3 Tanking trees or something.

 

Since specing Vengeance, I have been turned away from 2 groups because they thought I was a tank trying to take a dps slot, I have been begrudgingly taken on HM FP, but told at the end that though my dps was good, I should have rolled a Merc so I could really tear it up, and I have been told by at least 3 different people that Juggernauts are not a dps class.

 

 

 

It's already hard enough getting a DPS slot in PUGs at times, so how do you overcome the stigma that you aren't actually a DPS class?

 

You can't. When they release a CombatLog, then you can just parse yourself and then show them.

Edited by stephenjohnp
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Yup, you won't be able to convince them until we get damage meters at least, and even then, while your damage might be ok, jugs will always have problems. Melee range, no cc no stun and no aggro dump puts you at a serious disadvantage compared to the "intended" dps classes.

Obviously terrible design but thats what you get...

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Yup, you won't be able to convince them until we get damage meters at least, and even then, while your damage might be ok, jugs will always have problems. Melee range, no cc no stun and no aggro dump puts you at a serious disadvantage compared to the "intended" dps classes.

Obviously terrible design but thats what you get...

 

Vengeance gets an aggro dump every 15s with intercede, you target a ranged dps, intercede, and lower both of your threat, you might even get a force charge back out of it. You have to spec into it though.

 

But yeah I won't PUG on my Jug because I really enjoy playing vengeance but PUGs have always required that I tanked while leveling up.

 

I'm leveling a merc now funny enough because of all the melee hate in some hard modes and operations, and PVP is just much better on a ranged class thanks to Bioware's completely inept handling of ranged vs melee dps.

 

But your DPS is definitely competitive if bosses don't have melee hate.

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tbh, people will turn you down every day no questions asked. you can try going for 'but I can emergency tank when things go awry' - works sometimes.

 

but to be fair, I really do agree that jugg dps is behind many of the d/d/d classes like sniper or marauder... I kind of expected this though and went tanky after the leveling process...

 

Val

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1) You can't (easily or quickly) change misperceptions of a largely ignorant populace.

 

2) Damage meters won't fix the problem. They do, however, make it worse for whatever class happens to be *down* that month.

 

3) Until an MMO starts utilizing mechanics that affect ranged more than they do melee, this will always be a problem. If you choose a melee class, it's just part of the package for the time being.

 

OP -

 

Make some friends. This is obviously the best route, but barring that:

 

Make the most of the runs you do get into. Do good damage, stay out of fire, and fit in some *pro stuffs.* If you have gotten into a group that normally runs together, and you are the odd-man-out, see how they do things, and do it right the first time. Make yourself memorable, and you stand a chance of being friended by at least one of the people in the group.

 

Look at this this way - with no Dungeon Finder, finding skilled players to run with is at a premium for people who like to run lots of Flashpoints. Be that guy. Be that guy to as many people as you can.

 

Riôt

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You're dps is more controlled dps. I don't believe its nearly as good as merc or and full dps class, not even close. But we won't know until combat logs :/

 

Doing timed tests (5 minute tests) on every single class, very similarly geared, has shown the following:

 

Fully raid buffed, these are the results of each class (none of which had to tank the mob, the world boss on nar shadaa for reference):

 

Merc dps(Arsenal): 1921 dps

Vengeance Juggernaut: 1884 dps

Hybrid Sorc: 1899 dps

Madness Assassin: 1785 dps (I think he could optimize a bit more, not saying this is set in stone. I'd suspect it comes up much much closer to the others)

 

More testing is in order, and by no means is this exhaustive whatsoever. Take this with a grain of salt, as it is just anecdotal. However, most classes are pretty damn close in dps. We tested a sniper, but had pretty poor results (~1500 dps for lethality) and have not tested a marauder, so I will not include those numbers

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Make your own pugs. Unless you are in a low populated server, im sure you can even make class runs to make sure you get your loot if drops. A part of doing it with guild mates, that is my best strat for the time being.

 

Best regards and good luck

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people like to say if you want to dps you should have made a dps. funny how they don't say that to powertechs or mercs or ops or sorc or sins really sniper and mara are the only classes only built for damage everything else can do 2 things but for some reason they can only see tank. that aside I have gotten into HM FE with 3 people from a raid guild after advertising jugg dps lv 50 and the group members asked me to join their guild after because they were impressed with my ability to do damage, taunt boss off healer till tank got there, taunt boss off tank so healer had time to throw more heals and tank get aggro back, live through most anything unlike mara glass canons, and the fact I spent 2 points to make smash debuff enemy accuracy helped the tank take less damage in almost every encounter. there are alot of good things about dps juggs and their versatility is chief among them learn to use all of your abilities and show them what little you lack in damage you make up for in keeping the whole group alive and getting boss drops. always strive to impress.
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Until (IF...I could care less personally) the game gets damage meters, everything people throw up about DPS is pure speculation and Opinion. Some classes people think do more DPS because they're burst focused. Bigger numbers always look like more damage, even if the class your comparing it to has more damage via DoT's, or steady attacks, etc. Two 800 hits is just as good as one 1600 hit. But the 1600 will look like more damage...

 

Unfortunately, You will never be able to eliminate the ignorant opinions. They do tend to propagate more frequently in situations where you don't have hard facts, but even with damage meters, and every other detail of the game fleshed out, you still have issues with ignorance.

 

Bio's design goal was with every class within 5% of each other. And as of yet, there's nothing in the game that shows different. there's also nothing in the game that requires you to eek out an extra 5% just to survive it. Player skill is far more important (just walk into a hard mode with 1-2 people that have never done one before...experience and skill really show at that point).

 

I like the numbers that Dorkvid put up (thanks dude!). It gives you a real world idea of how an average boss fight would run. I would save those numbers in a text file and paste it in chat every time you get that reply "sorry, need a real DPS class". But inevitably, there will still be ******* in the game who think spec A does 2-3x more damage then spec B. Just ignore them. Find a good guild and run with friends.

 

So far I've been involved with 3 different guilds that are running end game content, and none of them bat an eye at bringing a Jugg for DPS. Of course, Pug's are pug's, and the ignorant MMO players are starting to show themselves. I've played many games without damage meters as well as with...they're still there no matter what.

 

I remember the stigma that was attached to Wardens when they first came around In LotRO(for the not knowing...it's a medium armor healing based tanking class...very challenging and fun to play!). It took a good year for many of the ignorant to accept them. those who stuck with the class were known as exceptional players because they had to be that good to play the class, as well as show others that they could do it.

 

i don't think that Jugg's have as much to scale as the warden's did, but crowd opinions are still there. I remember my first week into playing my shadow counselor I was tanking a group, and halfway through the run (after the healer had been healing me for the entire thing as the tank), expressed how amazing I was for being able to tank with a DPS class. I pointed out that the SC has a tanking tree. Brief silence, then a reply, "oh...didn't know that."

 

...most folks simply don't know. so it's easier to live with a rumor like Jugg's don't do good DPS then try to figure out the truth themselves. Sorta like how people used to believe the earth was flat.

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I've cleared every raid on Nightmare as a Rage Juggernaut. On the counsel fight in EV i consistently finish my 100k mob faster or as fast as other pure dps classes. Obviously assasins and operatives can't backstab so they don't count on that fight.

But i kill as fast as snipers and Bounty Hunters.

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I've cleared every raid on Nightmare as a Rage Juggernaut. On the counsel fight in EV i consistently finish my 100k mob faster or as fast as other pure dps classes. Obviously assasins and operatives can't backstab so they don't count on that fight.

But i kill as fast as snipers and Bounty Hunters.

 

 

The same is true for Vengeance.

 

 

So yeah, don't try convincing ignorant people that you are worth taking along, because you really don't wanna play with guys like that in the first place.

Edited by Ticara
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