Request to Change Project and Throw, with suggestions and examples…

[Sotaudi]

1. Canon, google it please.

2. Using the force to move an object in order to manipulate another object is quite something else than using it as a blunt weapon to freaking brain someone. Thats like the definition of messy. Might aswell rip them apart directly with the force if you think it doesn't matter HOW someone is killed.

 

On a more serious note, as someone who has seen the kind of trauma heavy blunt objects can do to fellow human beings i can assure you that its not something thats comparable to a nicely cauterized if leathal wound thats not even bleeding. A jedi simply wouldn't do something like that, just think about how something like that would look in a real life scenario instead a cartoony game.

 

Quotes, please. Show any cannon quote that specifically says that throwing debris is a dark force power. Otherwise, claiming it is is not supported by cannon. Likewise, cannon is not limited to the movies. The movies trump other sources, but they are not the only source.

 

That trauma from heavy, blunt objects is some how more horrific than being cut in half by a light saber is so utterlly nonsensical that it is not even worth addressing.

[Dyvim]

...

 

But try not to argue with everyone who disagrees, it detracts from your original post.

 

Fair enough. Like I said, I understand some people like it, I just do not understand how they llike it in relation to what jedi should be doing in the game. And the "If you change the animation I'll quit the class" comments are just silly. Alot of people either despise them or feel they add nothing to the class and yet they still play the class. And for someone to claim that kinetic force animations that work in any environment would somehow be worse for the class thematically or detract from the jedi feel or coolness factor of the class, COMPARED to the junk, yes literally JUNK we have now, is also just silly.

[Dyvim]

Quotes, please. Show any cannon quote that specifically says that throwing debris is a dark force power. Otherwise, claiming it is is not supported by cannon. Likewise, cannon is not limited to the movies. The movies trump other sources, but they are not the only source.

 

That trauma from heavy, blunt objects is some how more horrific than being cut in half by a light saber is so utterlly nonsensical that it is not even worth addressing.

 

Sounds like we agree on a few things. Well, since you want to talk about other sources of Canon, how about, as I mentioned, the first 3d video game where you could play a jedi and wield a lightsaber with force powers...DF2:JK. Throw (throwing debris) was an absolute darkside trait. It always has been. EVERY sith in the movies did it. I would consider that Canon.

[Sotaudi]

You win the epic fail trophy for the day. That poster was being sarcastic, b/c Luke PHYSICALLY threw the rock in RotJ. WITH his HAND, not the force. lol. lolz. No, really, lolz. So try getting the basic canon right, that of the movies, before you try anything else.

 

So here is my support, lets stick with the MOVIES. Vader throws debris/junk. Palpitane throws things. Dooku throws things. Maul threw junk. The only light jedi to THROW an object/junk WITH THE FORCE was Yoda, and he threw back a senate car that palpitane had initially thrown at him. He did not INITIATE that attack. Jedi dont throw junk. Try again. lolz.

 

 

The epic fail is in the presumption the fact that a Dark Side force user does something makes it a dark side force power. Varder used a light saber. Oh noes... Jedi cannot use a light saber because it is dark side. Palpatine used the force to learn of the future. Oh noes ... Yoda was dabbling in dark side powers trying to discern the future. Either way, here is a clue for you. The fact that you don't see someone do something does not mean it is forbidden to them. Show a quote from a source of cannon stating that throwing objects with the force is a dark side power. Your presumption that it is does not rise to the level of cannon.

 

Likewise, it is an epic fail in presuming that the movies are the only source of cannon. The moves trump other sources, but they are not the only source of cannon in the Star Wars universe. For instance, everything in this game takes place millenia before the movies, but what is being developed in this game is becoming cannon the same way that Reven became cannon because of KotoR and, now, the novel. Again, either way, the fact that someone does not do something is not evidence that it is a dark side power. To state that it is a dark side power, you have to show some cannonical source stating it is.

 

Perhaps the most epic of fails comes from suggesting that the fact that Yoda threw the car back at Palpatine is some how different because he did not initiate it. Did he block it, and it simply reflected back at Palpatine? No. Did he redirect it harmlessly away? No. He stopped the forward motion of the car and used the force to, yes, thow it at Palpatine. The "he started it" argument did not work when you were 5 years old, and Yoda is way more than 5 years old.

 

Finally, I find it absolutely hillarious the suggestion that picking up an object and hurling it at a person is somehow dark side, but picking up the actual person and hurling them at an object is not. Jedi do the latter with force push all the time.

 

Unless you can produce a quote from some cannonical source saying that throwing debris is a dark side power, you have no leg to stand on.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Sotaudi

[Dyvim]

The epic fail is in the presumption the fact that a Dark Side force user does something makes it a dark side force power. Varder used a light saber. Oh noes... Jedi cannot use a light saber because it is dark side. Palpatine used the force to learn of the future. Oh noes ... Yoda was dabbling in dark side powers trying to discern the future. Either way, here is a clue for you. The fact that you don't see someone do something does not mean it is forbidden to them. Show a quote from a source of cannon stating that throwing objects with the force is a dark side power. Your presumption that it is does not rise to the level of cannon.

 

Likewise, it is an epic fail in presuming that the movies are the only source of cannon. The moves trump other sources, but they are not the only source of cannon in the Star Wars universe. For instance, everything in this game takes place millenia before the movies, but what is being developed in this game is becoming cannon the same way that Reven became cannon because of KotoR and, now, the novel. Again, either way, the fact that someone does not do something is not evidence that it is a dark side power. To state that it is a dark side power, you have to show some cannonical source stating it is.

 

Perhapes the most epic of fails comes from suggesting that the fact that Yoda threw the car back at Palpatine is some how different because he did not initiate it. Did he block it, and it simply reflected back at Palpatine? No. Did he redirect it harmlessly away? No. He stopped the forward motion of the car and used the force to, yes, thow it at Palpatine. The "he started it" argument did not work when you were 5 years old, and Yoda is way more than 5 years old.

 

Finally, I find it absolutely hillarious the suggestion that picking up an object and hurling it at a person is somehow dark side, but picking up the actual person and hurling them at an object is not. Jedi do the latter with force push all the time.

 

Unless you can produce a quote from some cannonical source saying that throwing debris is a dark side power, you have no leg to stand on.

 

Actually the epic fail was not knowing the poster was joking, and not knowing that Luke threw the rock physically...instead, you jump in, not understanding, not knowing and nubcake it up with your lack of knowledge. But it was an honest mistake, I am guessing.

 

I guess you didnt read my post right above yours, but let me repeat it for you, especially since you like to talk about other sources of canon...

 

Well, since you want to talk about other sources of Canon, how about, as I mentioned, the first 3d video game where you could play a jedi and wield a lightsaber with force powers...DF2:JK. Throw (throwing debris) was an absolute darkside trait. It always has been. EVERY sith in the movies did it. I would consider that Canon.

 

There you have it, a lucasarts game, approved by lucas, really the first of the jedi games and throw is what? A DARKSIDE trait. That clear enough and canon enough for you?

[Sotaudi]

Sounds like we agree on a few things. Well, since you want to talk about other sources of Canon, how about, as I mentioned, the first 3d video game where you could play a jedi and wield a lightsaber with force powers...DF2:JK. Throw (throwing debris) was an absolute darkside trait. It always has been. EVERY sith in the movies did it. I would consider that Canon.

 

And I gave an example of a light side user who was so concerned about doing anything even remotely leaning to the dark side that he refused to even use any force powers for a time. Yet the first use of the force he did when he finally came to a decision was to create a force whirlwind that struck an enemy with a desk. There is a hierachy in cannon, and video games are at the bottom of the list, making my example more authoritive. Even if it was not, this game makes it a light side power, and this game has at least as equal a cannon claim as a previous one.

 

Even if that were not the case, the fact that a Sith does something does not make it a dark side power. And whether you like it or not, Yoda did throw the Senate car back at Palpatine. He did not redirect it, and it did not bounce off his defenses. He purposely threw it back.

 

Since you have yet to cite a quote stating that it is a darkside power, since this game makes it a light side power, since I have cited an example from the New Jedi Order, and since Yoda did it, whether you like it or not, I would consider that cannon.

[Sotaudi]

Actually the epic fail was not knowing the poster was joking, and not knowing that Luke threw the rock physically...instead, you jump in, not understanding, not knowing and nubcake it up with your lack of knowledge. But it was an honest mistake, I am guessing.

 

I guess you didnt read my post right above yours, but let me repeat it for you, especially since you like to talk about other sources of canon...

 

Well, since you want to talk about other sources of Canon, how about, as I mentioned, the first 3d video game where you could play a jedi and wield a lightsaber with force powers...DF2:JK. Throw (throwing debris) was an absolute darkside trait. It always has been. EVERY sith in the movies did it. I would consider that Canon.

 

There you have it, a lucasarts game, approved by lucas, really the first of the jedi games and throw is what? A DARKSIDE trait. That clear enough and canon enough for you?

 

What? Are you tweleve and think that throwing around insults makes your arguments right? I recalled Luke throwing the object. I simply mixed up the incident with another scene. Grow up a little.

 

I was writing a response to another post when you responded. I addressed your point about DF2:JK in a followup. Either way, guess what? This game is approved by Lucas, and this game makes it a light side power. Since I have given multiple sources of cannon showing it something other than a dark side power, the fact that one source may have made it such in one instance is not sufficent proof.

[Dyvim]

And I gave an example of a light side user who was so concerned about doing anything even remotely leaning to the dark side that he refused to even use any force powers for a time. Yet the first use of the force he did when he finally came to a decision was to create a force whirlwind that struck an enemy with a desk. There is a hierachy in cannon, and video games are at the bottom of the list, making my example more authoritive. Even if it was not, this game makes it a light side power, and this game has at least as equal a cannon claim as a previous one.

 

Even if that were not the case, the fact that a Sith does something does not make it a dark side power. And whether you like it or not, Yoda did throw the Senate car back at Palpatine. He did not redirect it, and it did not bounce off his defenses. He purposely threw it back.

 

Since you have yet to cite a quote stating that it is a darkside power, since this game makes it a light side power, since I have cited an example from the New Jedi Order, and since Yoda did it, whether you like it or not, I would consider that cannon.

 

Then you are wrong. My example is from a game, that had to take jedi powers, CLEARLY classify them, and turn them into in game abilitites. Approved by Lucas 15 years ago. Your EU example is just plain pointless and I would put MUCH less weight on it. Although it is funny, one of my suggestions as a replacement from chunk a clunker is to generate and throw a whirlwind instead of junk, or did you read that in the OP?

 

Irregardless, there are force powers that sith predominantly use and force powers that jedi predominatly use. Both use the force, just like both use lightsabers, but there are color(s) sith use, for a reason, and there are colors jedi predominantly use. These things are clear. EVERY Sith in the movies threw objects. Jedi...no, not so much. On the Sith side it is PREDOMINANT. On the jedi side it is RARE if at all. So taking the jedi force casting class and basing the WHOLE CLASS around throwing junk and debris is CLEARLY unsupported by Canon and not what you would expect for the class. You would expect it on the Sith side, though. But lightning is MORE predominant. That is also clear.

[Dyvim]

What? Are you tweleve and think that throwing around insults makes your arguments right? I recalled Luke throwing the object. I simply mixed up the incident with another scene. Grow up a little.

 

I was writing a response to another post when you responded. I addressed your point about DF2:JK in a followup. Either way, guess what? This game is approved by Lucas, and this game makes it a light side power. Since I have given multiple sources of cannon showing it something other than a dark side power, the fact that one source may have made it such in one instance is not sufficent proof.

 

No, Im not twelve, are you, since you cant even spell twelve correctly? Sorry if you find your lack of knowledge insulting, but if you are going to jump into an argument about canon, try to get the canon right. The correct logic behind my arguments is what makes them right. If you arent going to get the canon right, at least read the thread and understand what is being said. And, btw its CANON, not CANNON. I get it wrong sometimes too, but if you are going to argue about it, its nice to get it right. Yes, this game is approved by lucas. Good point. But it is also an MMO and things change. It is a new game and needs work in several areas.

 

Im sure he approved black core lightsaber crystals as the preorder gift, but those are just as ridiculous as light jedi throwing junk as the foundation of their skills. So again, you have to go with some logic behind your arguments. The preponderance of the evidence clearly shows that throwing objects is a darkside trait. Did some Sith not use red LS's? Sure...like Exar Kun. He used blue. THere is SOOO much star wars lore out there, you can find an example of just about anything. But we know, predominantly that sith used red blades generated by synthetic red crystals. Just like we know, predominantly, that Sith or dark jedi throw objects to harm, as an attack. So to base the light jedi force user skill set off of a traditionally, predominantly darkside skill makes no sense. These arent skills that are OCCASIONALLY used, they are the bedrock foundation of the class, used throught the life of the class, enhanced by multiple talents. As such, they need to be DISTINCTLY, predominantly, jedi in style and theme.

 

Chunk a clunker and pebblestorm are not, in any way, shape or form. And even if you buy into them and ignore the obvious canon problems, the animations are just poorly conceived and poorly implemented. Unless you would like to form some kind of rational argument as to how there are endless supplies of pebbles to throw, or endless supplies of rocks between starship decks to pull up and throw? Or endless droid graveyards, everywhere at your feet? No?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Dyvim

[Alkiii]

Then you are wrong. My example is from a game, that had to take jedi powers, CLEARLY classify them, and turn them into in game abilitites. Approved by Lucas 15 years ago. Your EU example is just plain pointless and I would put MUCH less weight on it. Although it is funny, one of my suggestions as a replacement from chunk a clunker is to generate and throw a whirlwind instead of junk, or did you read that in the OP?

 

Irregardless, there are force powers that sith predominantly use and force powers that jedi predominatly use. Both use the force, just like both use lightsabers, but there are color(s) sith use, for a reason, and there are colors jedi predominantly use. These things are clear. EVERY Sith in the movies threw objects. Jedi...no, not so much. On the Sith side it is PREDOMINANT. On the jedi side it is RARE if at all. So taking the jedi force casting class and basing the WHOLE CLASS around throwing junk and debris is CLEARLY unsupported by Canon and not what you would expect for the class. You would expect it on the Sith side, though. But lightning is MORE predominant. That is also clear.

 

It is supported by canon, otherwise it wouldn't be in the game (you do see that LucasArts logo on the game, right?) This game is also based on canon from 3000-3500 years before the movies.

 

You can continue to argue and call people names if you would like, but this discussion has nothing productive in it other than "my way is the only way and you are wrong", when in fact lore is saying otherwise.

 

Moving along ...

 

P.S. I would also like to add that I feel it is a bit hypocritical to think that taking the lore from the video game that you played prior is somehow different than what canon is stating.

 

I have shown that Mace Windu has used Project in lore, yet you dismiss it. You're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. You're wrong. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong ... otherwise it wouldn't be in the game that Lucas has given his blessing to.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Alkiii

[Dyvim]

It is supported by canon, otherwise it wouldn't be in the game (you do see that LucasArts logo on the game, right?) This game is also based on canon from 3000-3500 years before the movies.

 

You can continue to argue and call people names if you would like, but this discussion has nothing productive in it other than "my way is the only way and you are wrong", when in fact lore is saying otherwise.

 

Moving along ...

 

Good.

 

As far as the idea that if it is in the game, it is supported by canon....well, again there is the black core/gold color lightsaber crystal. Is that supported by canon too? SO scratch that argument. My arguments are solid. If you think the lore says something other than throwing debris at targets is predominantly a darkside trait, then you are simply wrong. Thats not calling you a name, that is just stating the truth. You like chunk a clunker and are willing to quit the class if it changes. I get that. You need to get that that puts you in a TINY TINY minority of the playerbase, however.

 

As far as your PS, like I said, there is so much star wars lore out there you can find examples, rare examples, of just about anything. What you go with, though, when you build a jedi force using class and are designing its theme and its fundamental abilities, are things that predominantly stand out as jedi. NOT something that is predominantly Sith or darkside. That is the point. Based on your flawed logic, since I can come up with sith that used blue lightsabers, then it would be fine to base ALL sith ls colors on blue. That is simply wrong. You go with the obvious preponderance of the examples given, starting with the movies. Some people cant grasp that...oh well, have fun moving along.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Dyvim

[kevshootit]

No, Im not twelve, are you, since you cant even spell twelve correctly? Sorry if you find your lack of knowledge insulting, but if you are going to jump into an argument about canon, try to get the canon right. The correct logic behind my arguments is what makes them right. If you arent going to get the canon right, at least read the thread and understand what is being said. And, btw its CANON, not CANNON. I get it wrong sometimes too, but if you are going to argue about it, its nice to get it right. Yes, this game is approved by lucas. Good point. But it is also an MMO and things change. It is a new game and needs work in several areas.

 

Im sure he approved black core lightsaber crystals as the preorder gift, but those are just as ridiculous as light jedi throwing junk as the foundation of their skills. So again, you have to go with some logic behind your arguments. The preponderance of the evidence clearly shows that throwing objects is a darkside trait. Did some Sith not use red LS's? Sure...like Exar Kun. He used blue. THere is SOOO much star wars lore out there, you can find an example of just about anything. But we know, predominantly that sith used red blades generated by synthetic red crystals. Just like we know, predominantly, that Sith or dark jedi throw objects to harm, as an attack. So to base the light jedi force user skill set off of a traditionally, predominantly darkside skill makes no sense. These arent skills that are OCCASIONALLY used, they are the bedrock foundation of the class, used throught the life of the class, enhanced by multiple talents. As such, they need to be DISTINCTLY, predominantly, jedi in style and theme.

 

Chunk a clunker and pebblestorm are not, in any way, shape or form. And even if you buy into them and ignore the obvious canon problems, the animations are just poorly conceived and poorly implemented. Unless you would like to form some kind of rational argument as to how there are endless supplies of pebbles to throw, or endless supplies of rocks between starship decks to pull up and throw? Or endless droid graveyards, everywhere at your feet? No?

 

seriously, I am afraid that the direction of this discussion is going to ruin the devs perspective on your GREAT aesthetic idea for the game.

 

this idea has a LOT of support b/c of the vision you have set forth for cooler ANIMATIONS in the game. I really think that argument is greater than the "good Jedi can lift objects, but not throw them" argument.

 

you've really got a good thing going here.. please don't derail it for the wrong reasons. I honestly think people like your idea a LOT because they want to use the jedi in the way you've described, not simply out of "loyalty" to the consistency of star wars 'cannon"

[Alkiii]

Good.

 

As far as the idea that if it is in the game, it is supported by canon....well, again there is the black core/gold color lightsaber crystal. Is that supported by canon too? SO scratch that argument. My arguments are solid. If you think the lore says something other than throwing debris at targets is predominantly a darkside trait, then you are simply wrong. Thats not calling you a name, that is just stating the truth. You like chunk a clunker and are willing to quit the class if it changes. I get that. You need to get that that puts you in a TINY TINY minority of the playerbase, however.

 

As far as your PS, like I said, there is so much star wars lore out there you can find examples, rare examples, of just about anything. What you go with, though, when you build a jedi force using class and are designing its theme and its fundamental abilities, are things that predominantly stand out as jedi. NOT something that is predominantly Sith or darkside. That is the point. Based on your flawed logic, since I can come up with sith that used blue lightsabers, then it would be fine to base ALL sith ls colors on blue. That is simply wrong. You go with the obvious preponderance of the examples given, starting with the movies. Some people cant grasp that...oh well, have fun moving along.

 

1.) You have no statistics to base your claim that I am in the "TINY TINY" minority.

 

2.) Your arguments are not solid. They're opinions.

 

3.) The color crystal is supported by canon, or Lucas wouldn't have ok'd it for SWTOR. He put in a purple color crystal before the new movies didn't he?

 

4.) Nothing states that Project or Force Throw is a darkside trait. There is absolutely no proof of this.

 

5.) I have shown you that Mace Windu himself used Project. You dismissed it. I have shown you that Anakin Skywalker used Project, you dismissed it. Yoda used Project in an offensive manner, you dismiss it. The fact is, I could sit here and say that 45 Jedi have used Project, and you'd dismiss it. Why? For the sake of arguing.

 

6.) I am going with the "preponderance of the examples given." I did much more than just watch movies. I've read all the books along with the movies, the animated tv series from years back, and now the new Clone Wars series.

 

7.) Lore is constantly changing ... this is evident in the new Clone Wars animated TV series and is apparent in SWTOR. Hell, even Darth Maul is coming back to life! Who woulda thunk it!?!?!!?!?!

 

8.) Stop. Just stop. Please ...

[Dyvim]

1.) You have no statistics to base your claim that I am in the "TINY TINY" minority.

 

2.) Your arguments are not solid. They're opinions.

 

3.) The color crystal is supported by canon, or Lucas wouldn't have ok'd it for SWTOR. He put in a purple color crystal before the new movies didn't he?

 

4.) Nothing states that Project or Force Throw is a darkside trait. There is absolutely no proof of this.

 

5.) I have shown you that Mace Windu himself used Project. You dismissed it. I have shown you that Anakin Skywalker used Project, you dismissed it. Yoda used Project in an offensive manner, you dismiss it. The fact is, I could sit here and say that 45 Jedi have used Project, and you'd dismiss it. Why? For the sake of arguing.

 

6.) I am going with the "preponderance of the examples given." I did much more than just watch movies. I've read all the books along with the movies, the animated tv series from years back, and now the new Clone Wars series.

 

7.) Lore is constantly changing ... this is evident in the new Clone Wars animated TV series and is apparent in SWTOR. Hell, even Darth Maul is coming back to life! Who woulda thunk it!?!?!!?!?!

 

8.) Stop. Just stop. Please ...

 

So much for moving on...who, exactly is just posting to argue...see this is my thread and I put alot of time into it, so I'm here for a reason. I actually look forward to debating solid arguments. Yours are not. let's review.

 

1) Put up a poll, lets see how many people would quit the class if the animations were changed. I stand by my statement.

 

2) My arguments are solid. Every sith in the movies threw items. EVERY one. That isnt opinion. Anakin did, but he is clearly not the jedi poster boy, since in the same movie he slaughtered women and children and got married...Yoda did, something I pointed out much earlier in the thread. But he did so in a reflective sort of way, just like he reflected lightning back at dooku and at sidious. No one, I hope, claims Yoda shot lightning. He took what the attacker threw at him and sent it back. THat is fundamentally different than what the SITH were doing in the movies, and is inherently jedi in nature and style. Got it? Who threw multiple items first? Palpitane. Again, OBVIOUS preponderance of the evidence.

 

3) Great so black core lightsabers are now supported by canon. Does that mean we want to base ALL lightsabers off of black cores and redefine the FUNDAMENTAL nature of lightsaber appearance across the board??? No. But that is EXACTTLY your argument. Since in your exhaustive review of lore you have come out with three examples of jedi (albeit one was on his path to the darkside, and the other was unique in his use of the force and ability to find shatterpoints as I recall (Windu), and the third example is Yoda, which I dealt with above) that threw something, then its ok with you to base the fundamental, use them MILLIONS of times, light jedi skills off of them. If you cant see the obvious flaw in that reasoning, then I doubt there is much else I can do to show it to you. Good thing you are moving along and arent here just to argue...

 

4) Uh, wrong. Nothing but the fact that every single sith did it in the movies, and it has ALWAYS been considered a darkside trait, all the way back to the CANON DF2:JK game and the FOLLOW on games that were immensely popular where throw was CLEARLY a darkside trait. What is your line? Oh yeah, but you dismiss it.

 

5) Again, no. Ive acknowledged anakin, mace, yoda. And pointed out why you wouldnt use those examples to base the skillset of the games force using class off of them. Anakin was on the path to the darkside. Mace...well that was in the EU. Mace did some really amazing things in the original clone wars cartoon as well. Yoda, again was reflecting or taking the aggression that was sent at him and directing it back.

 

6) Yes, and yet you have still only three examples. How many senate cars did palpitane alone throw?

 

7) Yep we agree there lore changes (see black core crystal above). Sometimes for the worse. But just because you have a few outlying examples, versus what is typical, that doesnt mean you lose sight of what is basic to jedi and what is basic to sith. You have lost sight of that...

 

8) You were moving on. This is my thread, I live here. I do appreciate the time you have taken to challenge my posts. If you cant defend an argument or a position, it probably isn't worth holding. Thank you.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Dyvim

[Skeptical]

Alkiii is just perpetuating an argument out of pure pettiness. Can we please just ignore what is clearly an attempt to troll and derail the thread?

 

Cannon is irrelevant.

 

Even from a nit-picking stand point, the suggested changes fit very well with the Star Wars cannon. Furthermore, the suggested changes could be used to ensure that Consular abilities function the same as the Sith Inquisitor abilities.

 

The only difference would be the flavor, which is how all of the abilities in the game should be but are not.

 

Alkiii and the OP need to take this personal grudge match to PMs. The only thing your escalating argument is going to accomplish is the locking of this thread.

[Dyvim]

Alkiii is just perpetuating an argument out of pure pettiness. Can we please just ignore what is clearly an attempt to troll and derail the thread?

 

Cannon is irrelevant.

 

Even from a nit-picking stand point, the suggested changes fit very well with the Star Wars cannon. Furthermore, the suggested changes could be used to ensure that Consular abilities function the same as the Sith Inquisitor abilities.

 

The only difference would be the flavor, which is how all of the abilities in the game should be but are not.

 

Alkiii and the OP need to take this personal grudge match to PMs. The only thing your escalating argument is going to accomplish is the locking of this thread.

 

Fair enough, Im done.

[Sulvan]

Who ever said that they need an insentive to play republic you are 100% wrong there. If anyone here played a game called Aion.

 

It went the same way people complained because 1 race the Elyos completley out numbered so Ncsoft said okay here is what we will do.

 

The factions losing by a certain percent in pvp they would gain 20% damage bonus they losing faction had similair abilities but one of them from every class on the asmodians (losing faction) got stronger abilities. So the one server they were winning the killed everyone and they outnumbered them by a large amount. They always dominated the server.

 

Why do you ask that people just didn't switch classes people did the math it takes months to get level 50 and now it is max level 60 then the gear is too hard to replace.

 

By the way i was on the losing server -_-

[Sulvan]

Also they knew to never take too many forts the things that determine factional dominance so we could never get damage bonus but they still kept there powerful abilities.

[Jswizzle]

I like the project delay. Little Sith think they got away from me than Boom

[Sotaudi]

No, Im not twelve, are you, since you cant even spell twelve correctly? Sorry if you find your lack of knowledge insulting, but if you are going to jump into an argument about canon, try to get the canon right. The correct logic behind my arguments is what makes them right. If you arent going to get the canon right, at least read the thread and understand what is being said. And, btw its CANON, not CANNON. I get it wrong sometimes too, but if you are going to argue about it, its nice to get it right. Yes, this game is approved by lucas. Good point. But it is also an MMO and things change. It is a new game and needs work in several areas.

 

Im sure he approved black core lightsaber crystals as the preorder gift, but those are just as ridiculous as light jedi throwing junk as the foundation of their skills. So again, you have to go with some logic behind your arguments. The preponderance of the evidence clearly shows that throwing objects is a darkside trait. Did some Sith not use red LS's? Sure...like Exar Kun. He used blue. THere is SOOO much star wars lore out there, you can find an example of just about anything. But we know, predominantly that sith used red blades generated by synthetic red crystals. Just like we know, predominantly, that Sith or dark jedi throw objects to harm, as an attack. So to base the light jedi force user skill set off of a traditionally, predominantly darkside skill makes no sense. These arent skills that are OCCASIONALLY used, they are the bedrock foundation of the class, used throught the life of the class, enhanced by multiple talents. As such, they need to be DISTINCTLY, predominantly, jedi in style and theme.

 

Chunk a clunker and pebblestorm are not, in any way, shape or form. And even if you buy into them and ignore the obvious canon problems, the animations are just poorly conceived and poorly implemented. Unless you would like to form some kind of rational argument as to how there are endless supplies of pebbles to throw, or endless supplies of rocks between starship decks to pull up and throw? Or endless droid graveyards, everywhere at your feet? No?

 

I hardly find your over inflated opinion of your own knowledge or your absurd assumptions about mine to be insulting. I find them amusing. The insult I referred to was the childish leetspeak "nubcake" remark. Only twelve year-olds think that such comments substitute for substantive arguments. The same goes for pointing out spelling errors as a substitute for actually countering valid arguments.

 

I was in a hurry. I did not have time to spell check or proof read, so sue me. However, you want to play grammar Nazi:

 

It is "I'm," not "Im," both times you used it.

It is "aren't," not "arent," both times you used it.

"Lucas" is a proper name, so it is "Lucas," not "lucas."

It is "There," not "THere."

It is "throughout," not "throught."

"Irregardless" is not a legitimate word (nonstandard).

And on and on ....

 

Those are just some of the writing errors you have made so far, so don't try to play grammar games with me, son. I did not denigrate your earlier writing because it was irrelevant. Try sticking to the actual facts.

 

As far as knowledge goes, personally, I saw all the movies the first time they were in the theaters, and I have seen them many, many times since. Other than the "graphics novels" and the Young Jedi Knight series, I have read almost every Star Wars novel that has been written, including those from this time frame. I don't base my knowledge of the lore on just the movies and one video game.

 

Either way, don't talk to me about getting the canon right. You claim that a video game defining it as a dark side power makes it dark side, then pretend that another Lucas approved game giving it to light side users is irrelevant. You claim it is a dark side power because no Jedi use it, then when confronted with at least two examples, including one from the movies, showing that not to be the case, you suddenly claim it is a dark side power because of the relative frequency it is used. Sorry, it does not work that way. Taking that logic, killing someone with a light saber is dark side because more Sith kill people with light sabers than Jedi.

 

The problem here is that you have a faulty view of what a dark side and light side power is. The fault is that video games like the one you mention group powers in light side and dark side categories for reasons of game mechanics. That is not supported by the lore. What makes an action light side or dark side is not so much the action itself as it is where it comes from. If it comes from anger and aggression, even kissing a baby is dark side. If it comes from calm and defense, even cutting someone in half with a light saber or throwing a Senate platform at someone is light side.

 

Regardless, continuing this discussion is pointless. Your argument that no Jedi use it has been discredited by examples of Jedi using it and your, now, tacit admission to that by changing your argument to it now being a dark side power because Sith use it "more." Likewise, your claim that a previous Lucas approved game makes it a dark side power is negated by this Lucas approved game making it a light side power. All that is irrelevant because it does not fit your paradigm, and you need to maintain that paradigm to justify your desire to see the skill changed. Therefore, the facts are inconvenient, and you will continue to belittle and redirect the discussion rather than actually argue the facts.

 

Have fun with your delusions.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Sotaudi

[JasonFJ]

Dyvim... fully support all the ideas. Would improve the game and immersion I think.

[Kantor_omicron]

I doesn't like the look of Project and Throw, but can accept it (there was at least one Jedi Master that throws debris onto enemy after all, in one of these pretty trailers). Maybe some sort of Force push... but it isnt really important. There is one thing that gives me a sick - a Kinetic Ward skill. Yeah that asteroid belt looks cool... for a shaman in you-know-where. A Jedi running around surrounded by stones looks ridiculous. It must be dealt with.

 

PS. There is a GLOBAL problem that goes from KOTOR - lightsabers, which meant to CUT people in half with ONE strike, became a light-sticks that makes a funny humming and sparks. The devs should focus on that - there is some ideas... but thats an off-topic.

[Dyvim]

I hardly find your over inflated opinion of your own knowledge or your absurd assumptions about mine to be insulting...Have fun with your delusions.

 

I wasn't the one challenging someone's age. If you are going to try to take a superior tone, the point is, try to at least spell the age right, otherwise it makes you look even more ridiculous. Just like if you are going to mistakenly quote another poster who was being sarcastic, and use that as a justification for your point (Luke throwing a rock in the Rancor den) try to get the canon right, or it makes you look even MORE ridiculous for not recognizing the sarcasm AND getting the canon wrong.

 

I'll happily stand by my facts all day long. But there is no reason to restate them, and if I did, you wouldnt pay attention anyway, so we do agree that it is pointless. Not only did I see the original movies in the theatres all the way back to '77, I played all the star wars games as well as read the books, and even bought the comic books. Like I said, there is so much lore out there, you can find an example of anything, like sith using a blue lightsaber, etc.

 

Thats why it is easier to stick to the movies. In the movies EVERY sith threw objects. Which means more sith threw objects than used lightning, even. But EVEN if you can ignore the majority of the canon, which some in this thread are want to do, then you still are placed in the ridiculous position of trying to defend the way the current animations "work". I noticed you skipped over that one. Rocks dont come out of starship decks and endless supplies of pebbles dont come out of thin air. But jedi arent junk throwers and anyone that is happy with the jedi force user class skills based on throwing junk is, well, misguided in my opinion. Tastes vary and some people obviously like the current animations, but there is absolutely no way anyone can use the body of star wars canon out there to support the idea that the consular abilities should be BASED around junk throwing. But hey, Im glad you are happy with the current animations.

 

As another poster pointed out the rock shield ability is also ridiculous perhaps even more so...every time I see that I think of the old Yamato/Starblazers cartoon where they had asteroids circle the ship as a barrier. Again with the rocks. Why BW seems so determined to pattern this class more after some generic fantasy shaman than jedi is puzzling. We are stuck with them for now, and may be for a long time, who knows.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Dyvim

[DerFant]

+1 for the request. I 100% agree.

[Enveryn]

I like animations atm (not so much as lightnings ofc...) I hate only speed of project animation, Shock is just OP compared to project now...

But nice ideas, would like to see how it could look like ingame!