Why Ranged Classes Dominate This Game and Why It needs a fix

[Wakantanka]

This is pretty simple guys, you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

 

If you have a game that has half the classes bringing a knife to a gun fight the only way you can balance the situation without giving melee a huge damage increase over ranged is to give melee better defenses vs ranged.

 

Let's say a melee and a range class duel each other and lets say they both do 500 dps and they both have the same defensive tools(armor, stuns, knockbacks). The ranged classes essentially has a extra "bubble" defense over the melee. That is for ever second the ranged classes keeps the melee class at > 4m range they get a 500hp bubble, the melee has no counter advantage, they will do less damage to the other than the ranged.

 

The only way I see to balance a knife in a gun fight is the same way it was done in the SW movies, melee must have superior deflect/dodge than ranged by quite a bit and it should probably increase significantly at greater than 4m.

 

That is if both classes are within melee range they both have essentially equal defense, but when a melee is outside melee range and they are not attacking their defense goes way up to account for the essentially 100% defense the range classes has at the time.

 

Of course the issue with defense in this game is that it only works against certain attacks while range give essentially 100% immunity to all attacks from a melee class. So it couldn't be a straight defense boost, it would have to be a resistance boost too, or the mechanics would have to be reworked where defense works against all types of attacks. The movie cannon show blocking lightning with a saber after all.

 

If you ever played Jedi Knight Outcast then you would remember how they handled it, essentially if you weren't attacking as melee your deflect was nearly 100%. This gave you control over blocking essentially. Of course scatter guns, rockets and grenades could not be deflected, BUT they could be force pushed to turn them around back! Now that was fun. Lightning was immune from deflection if I remember right but it was a much smaller part of the game play. JKII Outcast had nearly perfect melee/ranged balance, and was hella fun too.

 

Bottom line right now this game follows the same principle RL currently has, guns are superior to knives/swords in nearly all combat situations.

[shaidarlol]

BW stated that they want all classes to output overall the same DPS. Melees dont deal more damage.

 

melee deal more damage in a shorter span of time, if they have a full 5 seconds of uptime on anything they would be able to deal more damage than a ranged that has full 5 seconds of uptime. that is the difference. because melee can't have full uptime due to stuns, snares, roots, it evens out. that is the logic.

Edited February 11, 2012 by shaidarlol

[shaidarlol]

This is pretty simple guys, you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

 

If you have a game that has half the classes bringing a knife to a gun fight the only way you can balance the situation without giving melee a huge damage increase over ranged is to give melee better defenses vs ranged.

 

Let's say a melee and a range class duel each other and lets say they both do 500 dps and they both have the same defensive tools(armor, stuns, knockbacks). The ranged classes essentially has a extra "bubble" defense over the melee. That is for ever second the ranged classes keeps the melee class at > 4m range they get a 500hp bubble, the melee has no counter advantage, they will do less damage to the other than the ranged.

 

The only way I see to balance a knife in a gun fight is the same way it was done in the SW movies, melee must have superior deflect/dodge than ranged by quite a bit and it should probably increase significantly at greater than 4m.

 

That is if both classes are within melee range they both have essentially equal defense, but when a melee is outside melee range and they are not attacking their defense goes way up to account for the essentially 100% defense the range classes has at the time.

 

Of course the issue with defense in this game is that it only works against certain attacks while range give essentially 100% immunity to all attacks from a melee class. So it couldn't be a straight defense boost, it would have to be a resistance boost too, or the mechanics would have to be reworked where defense works against all types of attacks. The movie cannon show blocking lightning with a saber after all.

 

If you ever played Jedi Knight Outcast then you would remember how they handled it, essentially if you weren't attacking as melee your deflect was nearly 100%. This gave you control over blocking essentially. Of course scatter guns, rockets and grenades could not be deflected, BUT they could be force pushed to turn them around back! Now that was fun. Lightning was immune from deflection if I remember right but it was a much smaller part of the game play. JKII Outcast had nearly perfect melee/ranged balance, and was hella fun too.

 

Bottom line right now this game follows the same principle RL currently has, guns are superior to knives/swords in nearly all combat situations.

 

i think you are confusing 500 dps with something completely different.

if a melee does 2500 damage in 1 second and spend 4 seconds not doing anything that is still 500 dps.

if a range does 500 damage every second over 5 seconds that is also 500 dps.

that is the difference.

given what others have said a sniper can cast a spell which has 2s+ that does say crit for 5000, is exactly the same as a melee doing a 5k crit instantly and not dpsing during 1s when they are running up to the ranged.

[BobaFurz]

I've seen lev 12 Sents deal upwards of 300k damage in a single match with only 3 deaths.

 

lol defintely not without help and even then 300k is a bit high for a lvl 12.

Edited February 11, 2012 by BobaFurz

[shaidarlol]

BW stated that they want all classes to output overall the same DPS. Melees dont deal more damage.

 

i'll give you an even more tangible example:

 

a sorcerer's force lightning on average if all 4 ticks crit does about 1000 dmg each tick, it is a 3 second channel, so in 3 seconds a sorc is doing 4000.

 

a warrior's smash crit does around 5k, let's just say for the sake of example, it does 4k crit.

if the warrior takes 3 seconds to run up to the sorcerer and crits his smash for 4k while the sorcerer is also channeling. they are doing the exact same amount of damage to each other.

 

i hope that clears it up.

Edited February 11, 2012 by shaidarlol

[DarthxRage]

I agree there needs to be some type of DR system implemented. Spending 90% of a wazrzone slow or rooted gets old REALLLLY fast.

[Calista_ZK]

Dude im a BH mercenary BM , any melee that jumps u just interupts tracer, then knock backs then stuns then follows with another interupt. seriously if anything ur argument isnt even viable, range are good if left alone to kill but once a melee locks u down ur fkd.

 

Pretty much, at high levels, it's balanced.

 

Again, please don't mistake a group make-up problem for a class balance problem.

 

Ask BW to fix warzones because it doesn't look at group makeup and can form 6 Inquisitors against a Republic melee group, but don't start with the class skills.

 

Don't think it will help your original problem.

[Calista_ZK]

when it comes to a sorc/sage. i think a good fix would be to take one abilty away, eitehr the bubble,sprint,the slow or the slow from teh lightning/force throw. and as for the push back stop they have to spec into that, thier not having it givin to them so its ok in my books.

 

Sure, as long as we can pick of of YOUR abilities, fine in my books too.

 

OR,

 

up our burst.

 

I'll even let you take your pick of either solution.

[Wakantanka]

i think you are confusing 500 dps with something completely different.

if a melee does 2500 damage in 1 second and spend 4 seconds not doing anything that is still 500 dps.

if a range does 500 damage every second over 5 seconds that is also 500 dps.

that is the difference.

given what others have said a sniper can cast a spell which has 2s+ that does say crit for 5000, is exactly the same as a melee doing a 5k crit instantly and not dpsing during 1s when they are running up to the ranged.

 

DPS is an average, but it doesn't change the argument, unless you are saying that all melee does more burst than ranged, which I simply don't see in game. There are both ranged and melee that do lots of burst, and ranged and melee that don't, in the end it doesn't change the fact that ranged has 100% defense vs melee outside melee ranged.

 

Now that could be another approach to balance, giving ALL melee classes huge burst while making sure ALL ranged classes have almost no burst, while keeping overall DPS balanced. That would help, but to accomplish that without letting melee do way more overall damage would be to put basically all their moves on longer cool-downs, now they have to watch manage cool-downs to constantly to do their full DPS, while ranged just has to simply do their DPS.

 

I myself would prefer the melee simply gets the same defense at range that ranged classes do, then as far as how damage is actually done by the classes, that can be varied and different(burst or not).

 

So again here's the deal:

 

melee vs ranged, both in melee range, each class has equal defenses and damage.

 

melee vs ranged outside melee range, if the melee class is not attacking another player, defense goes up to nearly 100%, perhaps only if facing the ranged attacker.

 

ranged vs ranged are basically on equal footing always.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Wakantanka

[mBass]

The issue is that ranged aren't punished for being in melee range enough and have ample ways to generate a gap. Ranged classes simply have better snares than most of the melee specs.

 

That being said, as another poster said somewhere earlier in the thread, the more melee there are, the harder it is for ranged to maintain that efficacy.

 

My only snare is a 6 second aoe that doesnt slow as much as most melee snares. It's utterly worthless in 1 on 1

Edited February 11, 2012 by mBass

[mBass]

 

melee vs ranged, both in melee range, each class has equal defenses and damage.

 

 

Good point... Except it's not true at all.

[Evilmyst]

Marauders are the 1v1 king (they only had Ops/smgl to hold them back) and are a valuable asset to any team hoping to win a WZ, OP but not broken (maybe a little), a good marauder can easily take on any good merc because of its awesome burst and survivability. As a Full BM geared Merc i can say confidently that i cannot beat a GOOD Marauder 1v1 in a flat fighting area. My knock backs and stuns arent enough on flat terrain. The best Marauder I know agrees that Merc a ranged class is his easiest target. Melee is not weak in this game. I know i never want to see a full team of Marauders ever.

[Jesmcalli]

Marauders are the 1v1 king (they only had Ops/smgl to hold them back) and are a valuable asset to any team hoping to win a WZ, OP but not broken (maybe a little), a good marauder can easily take on any good merc because of its awesome burst and survivability. As a Full BM geared Merc i can say confidently that i cannot beat a GOOD Marauder 1v1 in a flat fighting area. My knock backs and stuns arent enough on flat terrain. The best Marauder I know agrees that Merc a ranged class is his easiest target. Melee is not weak in this game. I know i never want to see a full team of Marauders ever.

 

 

So, because one well-geared AC ( on your side, no less) is doing well, then all melee are fine? As it stands right now, ranged really doesn't have to do anything aside from tab targeting to be effective. They autoface their targets, and with the plethora of CC flying around, chances are a melee won't be on them for long. In the case of Sorcs/Sages, they can face tank all but the best geared melee anyways, so CC is just icing on the cake.

 

The main issue is, time on target. Ranged has much more time on target, simply by having a target within 30m of them in any direction. Melee has to get to the target and keep them within 4m to the bulk of their damage. In WoW , damage was handled so that melee could do a lot of damage in the short time they'd have on a target, and ranged would do less burst, but similar damage at range, over a longer period of time. SWTOR on the other hand, ranged does the same burst and same overall damage, but with much longer time on target. Ranged simply doesn't *have* to get melee off them in SWTOR like they do WoW.

[Kelticfury]

i dont think ranged classes donimate as much as people claim. just people roll melee characters but instead of learning how to play them, they get pasted by some ranged classes and give up and turn into forum pvpers.

 

im not the best pvper in the world and i dont see or have a problem vs ranged classes, so if i can handle it then anyone should be able to. truth is, a well played melee class gives me more problems than any of the ranged classes.

 

I agree. The only ranged that my pre lvl 20 sentinel has trouble with are commandos. Luckily I only have to face them in huttball.

[Kaarsa]

1. Stuns, mezzes, KNOCKBACKS affect resolve.

 

2. Roots are not affecting resolve, which is bad in my opinion, and here I agree with OP.

 

3. Snares should not stack to 100%

 

3. Snares should NEVER affect resolve. Why? How you, as melee, prevent being kited to death by running away ranged pew pewing you with his instant cast abilities? You slow them. If your first move after getting into melee range is not a slow, then in 99% cases you deserve to loose. Resolve being affected by slows = ranged kiting melees all the time. It would only make things worse.

[mBass]

Ranged simply doesn't *have* to get melee off them in SWTOR like they do WoW.

 

Where do you people keep coming up with this nonsense? As a sniper, the only reason I fight any melee classes toe to toe is because kiting doesn't exist for my class. The only reason I win some of those is because of gear..... even with that advantage, a shadow/assassin can roll right over me without any effort at all. To add insult to injury, even when it looks like I'm about to win a 1 on 1 at close range, most melee can just vanish into thin air... either to open on me again or run off and lick their wounds.

 

Confine your complaints to sorcerers/sages or learn how to play your class and accept its limitations.

[Xenon-se]

Melee classes are generally harder to play. Marauders and assassins specifically require a ton of keybinds and can have complex rotations.

 

Once people learn how to play the class they find that it's actually quite powerful and ranged classes need that range of they get beatdown fast.

This.

 

Bad vs Bad = Range have advantage

Good vs Good = Range does no longer have advantage

[mBass]

This.

 

Bad vs Bad = Range have advantage

Good vs Good = Range does no longer have advantage

 

Because kiting is way easier than binding force charge.... ... ...

[Spyde]

I dominate with my Jugger ?

 

 

Saber throw is ranged yo.

[Zlashie]

1. Stuns, mezzes, KNOCKBACKS affect resolve.

 

2. Roots are not affecting resolve, which is bad in my opinion, and here I agree with OP.

 

3. Snares should not stack to 100%

 

3. Snares should NEVER affect resolve. Why? How you, as melee, prevent being kited to death by running away ranged pew pewing you with his instant cast abilities? You slow them. If your first move after getting into melee range is not a slow, then in 99% cases you deserve to loose. Resolve being affected by slows = ranged kiting melees all the time. It would only make things worse.

 

I think this is perfect. Well Written, Thank you

[Wakantanka]

Good point... Except it's not true at all.

 

Perhaps that's why I'm suggesting it as a change?

 

Also don't misunderstand me I'm not saying a sniper should have the same defense as a guardian or a guardian doing the same damage as a sniper. I'm simply suggesting that melee has basically a 100% defense vs ranged, just as ranged currently enjoys vs melee. After that balance everyone defense/tools without the need to consider whether they are ranged or melee, that aspect has been canceled out by the melee vs ranged defense.

 

Basically it should be pointless to shoot at a Jedi who's is at range looking at you and not fighting someone else, this is exactly how the movies depicted melee being tenable with gun/blaster technology.

[Zlashie]

Perhaps that's why I'm suggesting it as a change?

 

Also don't misunderstand me I'm not saying a sniper should have the same defense as a guardian or a guardian doing the same damage as a sniper. I'm simply suggesting that melee has basically a 100% defense vs ranged, just as ranged currently enjoys vs melee. After that balance everyone defense/tools without the need to consider whether they are ranged or melee, that aspect has been canceled out by the melee vs ranged defense.

 

Basically it should be pointless to shoot at a Jedi who's is at range looking at you and not fighting someone else, this is exactly how the movies depicted melee being tenable with gun/blaster technology.

 

altho I am very interested in your suggestion it does leave a big question:

 

Where does melee non-force users like scoundrels and vanguards go? Are they the doomed exception?

 

-Z

[Crassius]

Playing a melee class who heavily relies on snares I can only say that having people IMMUNE to them would make everything ALOT worse for me. This is not needed. D/R on roots is something else, as it renders melee completely unable to do anything, while ranged can still cast at their leisure.

[mBass]

I'm simply suggesting that melee has basically a 100% defense vs ranged, just as ranged currently enjoys vs melee.

 

Uh.. what?

 

Just because you have to get into position before you can damage us doesn't mean we enjoy 100% defense against you. On top of that, what you're suggesting is ridiculous. Attacking unwitting targets from range is the sniper/gunslinger's bread and butter. Why should people like you be immune to that because you don't want to learn your class?

[mBass]

Playing a melee class who heavily relies on snares I can only say that having people IMMUNE to them would make everything ALOT worse for me. This is not needed. D/R on roots is something else, as it renders melee completely unable to do anything, while ranged can still cast at their leisure.

 

What roots are you even talking about?