Why Ranged Classes Dominate This Game and Why It needs a fix

[Teabaker]

I think stuff like the Sorc stun shouldn't be in the Game. A long stun without any requirements? That's just broken. They should make the Stun Assassin only or it should require setup (Like, consumes Crushing Darkness) or something. Edited February 11, 2012 by Teabaker

[Jinroku]

I think a big issue is POOR map design. There are different levels in all maps, where range has an advantage.

 

Huttball- has 3 levels, if any of your abilitys; ie force charge is down, what are you gonna do? Run? Hope to LoS?

 

Alderran- has a higher level such as the balcony in the center. Even at east and west, as I say if any of your abilitys are on CD that help you break that gap, what are you gonna do? Run around to the stairs as they turret you down.

 

Voidstar- Boxes, and the LoS around pillars so they can turret you at the door.

 

 

Poor map design, LOVES range. Plain and simple. TURRET TURRET TURRET.

 

I think are ability's are fine, maybe perhaps let us have more survivability ability's closer to lower level, instead of high 30+ if in the 10-49 brackets.

 

I just really strongly believe that range is favored in this game due to map design. But that's my personal opinion.

 

Before people bash, oh your bad, or oh this and this. I play both 50 sorc/50 jug, I know the differences.

[shaidarlol]

This isnt about skills. This is about the system itself.

 

To give you an analogy as an example: Im telling you that my i5 processor isnt as good as your i7 processor and you are teling me that I need to be better at using my PC in order for it to be equal to yours.

 

Yes, a great player can overcome such differences and make it work. I have seen good players take the worst class and make it work. But it doesnt neglect the fact that the balance issues are still there.

 

the problem with your analogy is that it's begging the question.

you already assumed that the melee is the worse class (i5) while the ranged is the better (i7)

 

what the other poster is suggesting is he thinks that they are balanced, therefore skill is what makes one class better than the other.

 

a better analogy would be you both have i5 processors, but the ranged user overclocked his while the melee didn't. in other words skill.

[Zlashie]

no need to because everything we need to know we can learn from the title. you're bad, your opinion matters not. so sorry.

 

Thats funny because the title says nothing about what my thread is about.

 

Actually, if you spent 5-10min reading it you would know that my thread does not ask for any class nerfs, it discusses why some classes come across stronger than others, and you would also know that my suggestion to fix the problem doesnt ask for a class nerf at all: it asks for a refix of the stunlimits (resolve (bar))

[Zlashie]

the problem with your analogy is that it's begging the question.

you already assumed that the melee is the worse class (i5) while the ranged is the better (i7)

 

what the other poster is suggesting is he thinks that they are balanced, therefore skill is what makes one class better than the other.

 

a better analogy would be you both have i5 processors, but the ranged user overclocked his while the melee didn't. in other words skill.

 

Im not asuming melee is worse. Im asuming melee has much bigger problems regarding CC due to the fact that resolve does not affect root/slow.

 

a rooted/slowed melee has the same crucial effect as stun has to ranged.

 

As mentioned before im not asking about class nerfs/buffs, im asking about the resolve system to be reworked.

[shaidarlol]

Il hand you a cookie by person when I can outdamage a gunslinger/sniper with fewer hits than them.

 

yes because operatives and assassins and warriors dealing 5k+ crits INSTANTLY is a fair comparison to a sniper having to take cover then use a 2s+ cast time spell to do that same amount of damage?

 

where is my cookie sir

[ijii]

I've played an Assassin since launch, and on a 1 vs 1 scenario, I'd say the melee vs range isn't so much a problem. So many ways to counteract their moves.

 

If they knock me back, I can force pull them to me (also counts as an interrupt). If they knock me back again, I use force speed to catch back up to them.

 

If they stun me, I use the CC breaker. If they stun me again and get away, I'll Jolt(interrupt) them from a distance if they try to use their powerful channel abilities.

 

If all else fails, I can cloak assuming they don't have a DOT on me, which makes them untarget me and I can catch back up to them.

 

Keep in mind, that's how I counteract them if I'm on the defensive...

 

 

If I'm able to go on the offensive, I can do some of the things:

 

I have 3 stuns/knockbacks: electrocute, spike, and overload. I make sure I have my relics on and procs ready and use my heavy hitters.

 

I have two snares, Wither and Force Slow, cooldown like 12 and 8 seconds I think. I alternate between the two and the ranged dps really struggles to get away from my melee range.

 

If they snare me to get away, I have a force lightning that has medium range DPS and snares them too and plus heals me.

 

 

Assassin has a lot of tools to beat ranged DPS and didn't even mention them all because I don't want this to be a TL : DR.

 

 

I'd say the hardest duel for an Assassin would be those that can heal fast, especially melee healers. Ranged DPS/healers are easier because they are too busy running away instead of DPSing me or healing themselves.

 

 

EDIT: The biggest thing I can say to all melee combatants is to use SNARES!!

Edited February 11, 2012 by ijii

[shaidarlol]

Im not asuming melee is worse. Im asuming melee has much bigger problems regarding CC due to the fact that resolve does not affect root/slow.

 

a rooted/slowed melee has the same crucial effect as stun has to ranged.

 

As mentioned before im not asking about class nerfs/buffs, im asking about the resolve system to be reworked.

 

while i do agree with you that a root should be affected by resolve, i do not believe for a moment snares should. but you really have to think about this in from a ranged point of view. being rooted as ranged while having full resolve is equally bad as melee being stuck in a root. the difference i think you are trying to say is if a melee is rooted out of melee ranged they are screwed, yes that is true, but a ranged rooted while a melee is on them is just as bad if not worse.

[durvas]

Melee's problem isn't CC or range, that's pretty much every MMO ever. The most underappreciated aspect is that AOEs do a ton of damage, more than direct fire in some circumstances. This prevents grouping up as melee rather than ranged where they can be spread out. This has a large effect in tight, objective based maps and when trying to group to burn someone down. Something like aoe damage reducing talents would buff melee immensely in pvp and pve.

[Krionic]

Your analyses ignores the other major form of CC -- charge / gap closers.

 

and for that reason, i'd say melee has advantage. Cool, that gunslinger might be able to kb you, but you can instantly charge back in (and interrupt) to close the gap. Or just pull them to you.

[shaidarlol]

Im not asuming melee is worse. Im asuming melee has much bigger problems regarding CC due to the fact that resolve does not affect root/slow.

 

a rooted/slowed melee has the same crucial effect as stun has to ranged.

 

after reading this again to be sure, i have no doubt in my mind that you are saying exactly that a ranged having the advantage whilst the melee suffers more. ie melee is worse.

 

you said it yourself "im assuming melee has much bigger problems regarding CC due to the fact that resolve does not affect root/slow" i'm afraid that just isn't the case.

[JuicyFruits]

Im not asuming melee is worse. Im asuming melee has much bigger problems regarding CC due to the fact that resolve does not affect root/slow.

 

a rooted/slowed melee has the same crucial effect as stun has to ranged.

 

As mentioned before im not asking about class nerfs/buffs, im asking about the resolve system to be reworked.

 

This. And it is especially true in group fights.

 

In 1v1 I don't have too much problems if I play smart. However in a group fight, thats where the **** hits the fan. Its knockback galore most of the time. Groups will just chain KB any melees that come close, with no problem whatsoever. Now add slows and roots into the mix...

 

 

Resolve should definitely affect snares, roots, and even knockbacks. Maybe not 100% negate them, but at least lower their effectiveness. Full resolve bar should maybe reduce snare potency by 50%, reduce knocking distance by 50%, and root duration by 50%.

 

Again, this is not a problem with 1v1 or even the classes themselves.

[Zlashie]

and for that reason, i'd say melee has advantage. Cool, that gunslinger might be able to kb you, but you can instantly charge back in (and interrupt) to close the gap. Or just pull them to you.

 

Not all melee classes have charge.

[Zlashie]

Why is the resolve system an issue?

 

Because it affects stuns and not the other stuff.

It should be as such:

Full Resolve ignores stuns and roots.

 

Stuns is the bread and butter for melee classes whilst root/slow/stun is the bread and butter for ranged.

 

Yes, this becomes less of an issue with melee classes with a charge ability, but what about those without a charge ability?

 

-Z

[Trujan]

Op, I read your post, and considered your hit scenario, and your post doesn't make sense.

Not because your logic is flawed, but purely because I am melée dps and I am not owned by ranged anymore than I am melée. I don't think ranged have anymore of an advantage than I have over them.

I think BW have actually intergrated the ranged abilities very nicely into this game, and I can say this hand on heart, I have never been kited to death by a ranged yet.

[JuicyFruits]

Op, I read your post, and considered your hit scenario, and your post doesn't make sense.

Not because your logic is flawed, but purely because I am melée dps and I am not owned by ranged anymore than I am melée. I don't think ranged have anymore of an advantage than I have over them.

I think BW have actually intergrated the ranged abilities very nicely into this game, and I can say this hand on heart, I have never been kited to death by a ranged yet.

 

Ever been knocked down huttball platforms over and over?

 

I just played a game where I basically spent 90% of my time trying to get back to the platforms after being knocked back... only to be KBed again as soon as I got there. Ad nauseum.

 

Boring gameplay. When I play ranged I can at least deal DPS to people above me, to help my teammates. As a melee I feel utterly useless. Heck, even fire in that map favor ranged players.

 

However yes, in 1v1 I feel fine, and I have never been kited to death. But I'd like to actually be useful in the warzone, instead of being forced to do meaningless random 1v1s on the side of the map.

[mBass]

As a lethality sniper, (the only sniper spec that can actually do damage to most melee), my only effective cc method is a melee range stun. I fight marauders toe to toe more often than not because trying to cc them while they're beating the *** out of me is a waste of time and will get me killed. I have to save all of my cc for when they bubble up anyway.

 

The problem, if there is one, is sorcerers/sages... not all ranged classes.

[Scotland]

L O S counts aswell for melee, never met players who did LOS you so you cant charge.

 

this is basically the answer to any melee who cant handle range.

 

melee from what ive seen possess way more overall dmg than any other class, so being able to draw your ranged target into a situation where he cant attack you until you attack him, is key and part of the challenge, is it not?

[Zlashie]

this is basically the answer to any melee who cant handle range.

 

melee from what ive seen possess way more overall dmg than any other class, so being able to draw your ranged target into a situation where he cant attack you until you attack him, is key and part of the challenge, is it not?

 

And that brings us back to the problem I pressented in the thread.

 

You cant stun your enemy because he is at full resolve bar, and you cant run out of LOS because you are rooted/slowed. What do you do?

 

Fix for this: Make roots/slows affect resolve bar as well.

[Invictusthetaru]

Great post OP! It's not that slows,roots and stuns are the problem for melees, it's that we can literally be perma stunned rooted and made completely useless, whereas ranged is never useless.

 

I don't think they will every address this though, which is why I'm rolling a trooper now.

[JuicyFruits]

this is basically the answer to any melee who cant handle range.

 

melee from what ive seen possess way more overall dmg than any other class, so being able to draw your ranged target into a situation where he cant attack you until you attack him, is key and part of the challenge, is it not?

 

BW stated that they want all classes to output overall the same DPS. Melees dont deal more damage.

[Dracosz]

The issue is that ranged aren't punished for being in melee range enough and have ample ways to generate a gap. Ranged classes simply have better snares than most of the melee specs.

 

That being said, as another poster said somewhere earlier in the thread, the more melee there are, the harder it is for ranged to maintain that efficacy.

[gwrtheyn]

lethality sniper with 50% free slow in rotation,kb+root,root shot,stun+speed,blind+debuff has a lot tools to kill a jedi without getting more than 1-3 hits(dead range mele kiting)

[Zlashie]

The issue is that ranged aren't punished for being in melee range enough and have ample ways to generate a gap. Ranged classes simply have better snares than most of the melee specs.

That being said, as another poster said somewhere earlier in the thread, the more melee there are, the harder it is for ranged to maintain that efficacy.

 

Isnt this the same thing as saying: "The more ranged there are, the harder it is for melee to maintain that efficiancy" ?

[Fredder]

when it comes to a sorc/sage. i think a good fix would be to take one abilty away, eitehr the bubble,sprint,the slow or the slow from teh lightning/force throw. and as for the push back stop they have to spec into that, thier not having it givin to them so its ok in my books.