Why Ranged Classes Dominate This Game and Why It needs a fix

[Kashtor]

And here I was thinking that lightsabers deflected ranged attacks in the galaxy. Guess thats not the case?

[BobaFurz]

As a commando, my knockback adds to the resolve bar and does nothing against a full resolve bar. I also have a 4 second stun, a short duration slow if i spam my free attack, and long mez. I fail to see where I have any edge in CC.

 

As a shadow I can force stun, keep you slowed the entire fight, knockback, long mez from stealth, force lift, stealth, in-combat stealth, knockdown or force pull, and force speed. I also have 10m ranged attacks of my own, and the ability to use a 30m one depending on cooldown. I believe there's a 30m attack in the balance tree too, but i could be mistaken.

 

Jedi guardians/sentinels have things like multiple leaps, slow, 100% slow, stun, push, in-combat stealth, saber throw, etc. Vanguards have storm and harpoon, along with the above CC listed for my commando. Scoundrel DPS have quite a bit of CC as well.

 

TLDR; Melee aren't at a disadvantage in terms of CC, and they aren't without tools to work around range. Learn to take better advantage of the resolve bar, and use the tools at your disposal to keep the fight at a range where you're effective. Good melee do this, bad ones don't. The same is true for ranged classes...

 

But tell me one thing, why I have to interrupt your ranged dmg to succeed in close combat. Maybe you played other mmos or rpgs aswell, and you have always to kite warriors. I dont say melees have a disadvantage in a 1v1, but the thing is that it takes a lot of time to take a ranged class down which actually has a similar dps output like the melee class itself, at my lvl I would say it is even higher. This is not understandable for me.

 

Iam not sure if you actually played a warrior class in this game, but how is your expirience here in group pvp. An assassin is not compareable to a Maurader class, way different.

Edited February 10, 2012 by BobaFurz

[MatAuc]

Someone should start a thread named : Why people QQ and start thread by "why...magical reasons everyone oversighted this but is not me that is ignorant and biased"

 

Would get my approval at least.

 

PS. I'm melee, we're fine everywhere EXCEPT in zerg fests 50vs50 which I don't really care about to be honest {and nothing could fix anyways}

[sithgrizley]

And here I was thinking that lightsabers deflected ranged attacks in the galaxy. Guess thats not the case?

 

In Tor lightsabers deflect white damage.

 

So they work when say a Mercenary uses Unload to channel damage at you for 3 seconds. They do not however work on any force or tech attack. So if a Sorc decides to channel force lightning at you it ignores your defenses (parry). COMPLETELY IGNORING THAT LIGHTNING IS BLOCKED BY LIGHTSABERS IN MULTIPLE CUT SCENES AND THE MOVIES.

[Lazorous]

But tell me one thing, why I have to interrupt your ranged dmg to succeed in close combat. Maybe you played other mmos or rpgs aswell, and you have always to kite warriors. I dont say melees have a disadvantage in a 1v1, but the thing is that it takes a lot of time to take a ranged class down which actually has a similar dps output like the melee class itself, at my lvl I would say it is even higher. This is not understandable for me.

 

Iam not sure if you actually played a warrior class in this game, but how is your expirience here in group pvp.

 

Most Warriors/Maruaders I've spoken to say they don't really shine until the 40s? More abilities to look forward to.

 

I've only played mine up to 20s, and it's definitely a lot harder to go against ranged in that level. But I'm just buying time until I get to where I need to be.

[denpic]

I think for range classes all they need to do

Is reduce their chance to hit land an attack whilst moving

 

And an auto swing attack for melee would go along way

[iceperson]

I think for range classes all they need to do

Is reduce their chance to hit land an attack whilst moving

 

And an auto swing attack for melee would go along way

 

most ranged attacks can't be used while moving...

[BobaFurz]

Most Warriors/Maruaders I've spoken to say they don't really shine until the 40s? More abilities to look forward to.

 

I've only played mine up to 20s, and it's definitely a lot harder to go against ranged in that level. But I'm just buying time until I get to where I need to be.

 

Yeah I hope aswell, lets see . What I need is more dmg currently, hopefully getting better gear at 40.

 

Anyway, I still would love to know from a commando why a close combat warrior has to interrupt the dmg of a ranged class to succeed in close range. This is not understandable for me and it feels like a missconcept in this game, balancing range and warrior classes.

Edited February 10, 2012 by BobaFurz

[Kharim]

But tell me one thing, why I have to interrupt your ranged dmg to succeed in close combat. Maybe you played other mmos or rpgs aswell, and you have always to kite warriors. I dont say melees have a disadvantage in a 1v1, but the thing is that it takes a lot of time to take a ranged class down which actually has a similar dps output like the melee class itself, at my lvl I would say it is even higher. This is not understandable for me.

 

Iam not sure if you actually played a warrior class in this game, but how is your expirience here in group pvp. An assassin is not compareable to a Maurader class, way different.

 

Anyway, I still would love to know from a commando why a close combat warrior has to interrupt the dmg of a ranged class to succeed in close range. This is not understandable for me and it feels like a missconcept in this game, balancing range and warrior classes.

 

If melee could simply DOMINATE a fight the second they got in close with a ranged class, ranged classes would have no chance in this game. Melee classes have multiple skills that allow them to get in close and stay there. In order to maintain balance, the ranged classes have to be able to fight (somewhat) effectively up close.

 

That being said, a melee class that is on the same level gear/skill wise as me will win the portion of the fight that is up close, and I'll win when I can keep them at range. Effective use and timing of CC and CC breaks (with the resolve bar in mind) will determine who wins the battle of positioning. Can I kill a melee class in melee range? Yeah, if they're bad or undergeared. But you aren't considering that the last thing I want to do is be getting hit while I'm channeling or charging an ability, because of pushback. I'm not 100% effective in close with a melee class, but they are operating at 100%, so I avoid being there as much as I can (which isn't much).

 

On my shadow (tank spec currently) I'm not as deadly as a DPS... which isn't exactly a surprise. Tanks are, in my opinion, not built for killing as much as support. Guard, CC, taunts, debuffs, and just being able to take a beating give your team's DPS more time to do the killing. Sure you can kill some people 1v1, or complete objectives, but your role in combat is centered around increasing the damage/time necessary to defeat your team. Healers provide back-end support, while tanks provide front-end support.

 

When my shadow was in a DPS build, I had no problem staying close and dropping a lot of damage with backstabs and such. Stealth in and get the edge with your opening attack(s), get knocked back, force speed back in, eat a stun (often filling the resolve bar), CC break and snare and now the fight is in melee where I have the edge. If things turn south, I can force cloak and slip away, coming back when an opportunity presents itself.

 

 

The current system seems quite fair to both sides, without the over use of kiting (while still allowing for it). I don't see why you have such an issue with it.

[Idockdudes]

No one should take the OPs post seriously, even if you agree that ranged are better than melee.

 

If you want to objective and actually compare the two you need to KNOW and list their advantage and disadvatages together. The OP does nothing but list ranged advantages and none of the melee advantages.

 

I think there are a lot of players who are ignorant to the advantages melee have, they do exsist. Do they make up for the advantages ranged have? thats debateable, but if you actually want to argue one way or the other you should have all of the facts.

[syntxerr]

If melee could simply DOMINATE a fight the second they got in close with a ranged class, ranged classes would have no chance in this game. Melee classes have multiple skills that allow them to get in close and stay there. In order to maintain balance, the ranged classes have to be able to fight (somewhat) effectively up close.

 

That being said, a melee class that is on the same level gear/skill wise as me will win the portion of the fight that is up close, and I'll win when I can keep them at range. Effective use and timing of CC and CC breaks (with the resolve bar in mind) will determine who wins the battle of positioning. Can I kill a melee class in melee range? Yeah, if they're bad or undergeared. But you aren't considering that the last thing I want to do is be getting hit while I'm channeling or charging an ability, because of pushback. I'm not 100% effective in close with a melee class, but they are operating at 100%, so I avoid being there as much as I can (which isn't much).

 

On my shadow (tank spec currently) I'm not as deadly as a DPS... which isn't exactly a surprise. Tanks are, in my opinion, not built for killing as much as support. Guard, CC, taunts, debuffs, and just being able to take a beating give your team's DPS more time to do the killing. Sure you can kill some people 1v1, or complete objectives, but your role in combat is centered around increasing the damage/time necessary to defeat your team. Healers provide back-end support, while tanks provide front-end support.

 

When my shadow was in a DPS build, I had no problem staying close and dropping a lot of damage with backstabs and such. Stealth in and get the edge with your opening attack(s), get knocked back, force speed back in, eat a stun (often filling the resolve bar), CC break and snare and now the fight is in melee where I have the edge. If things turn south, I can force cloak and slip away, coming back when an opportunity presents itself.

 

 

The current system seems quite fair to both sides, without the over use of kiting (while still allowing for it). I don't see why you have such an issue with it.

 

Those are all very good points in my opinion.

 

Personally, I've experienced both worlds and I still do enjoy both. And quite honestly, I can't really understand this whole complaining about ranged classes dominating at all. Leaving gear and skill aside, because those two factors will essentially decide no matter the class design's advantages and disadvantages, what you said is exactly correct:

 

When a melee class gets up close and stays there it is pretty deadly and will drop ranged DPS quite quickly and effectively. The other way around a ranged class will win if the melee class is kept at range.

 

Now, it all comes down to playing smart. That's all there is to it. Both worlds have enough tools to do their job. Either to get in range or to close gaps. It is just a matter of how to use those tools and how to combine them. If I burn my utility mindlessly, I'll end up without and get torn up. Natural, what did you expect. In another fight it will be the other way around.

 

I see many players just not being smart about it, not kiting effectively, not interrupting, blowing gapclosers mindlessly, not provoking the enemy to use a utility ability they know is free, not using the terrain, nothing. To put it bluntly, when I force leap in and then stand still, mashing buttons, I can't expect to automatically win. That's how it often sounds like. If running through me, perhaps with a little knockback confuses me totally, I deserve to loose. I really see that often. Those that shout the loudest put up the worst fight possible.

 

Then there is another concern, I'm having. People need to realise that raged vs. melee are two completely different playstyles. Sure, I agree, for many it will be easier to be more or less successful at range, but that's not the topic here. I have the feeling lots of melee players seem to expect to just charge in somewhere and unleash havoc. You need to be smart about it, especially in teamplay. Of course you will get focused and nuked down as soon as you jump into an enemy group. That's something that doesn't happen -as- often to ranged classes, but that's in the nature of how you attack.

[Swaggz]

Hello people.

 

NOTE: Please read the solution to the listed problem before you comment. Thank you

 

To make sure this doesnt become a subjective opinionated thread I will personally say: Im going to go through this step by step by doing scientific study with an objective mind: I myself pvp actively with both melee and ranged classes.

 

Problem

Melee classes feel ranged classes are "overpowered" in many situations due to various abilities.

 

What I will do

Through analyzing and study I will find and discuss whether ranged classes really are favoured and what makes them seem so. In addition I will try and find a solution to the problem.

 

Main Subject: Incapeable of attacking - CC

In many games, CC has been an utility both in PvE and PvP used to control situations. For Ranged classes this can bee all from keeping melee away, stopping targets from running, kiting etc. For melee classes this means keeping the target close and in control.

 

CC really is an important part of RPGs, but why is it such a huge problem in SWTOR? First lets list the 5 main kind of CC in this game.

 

• Stun
  
• Root
  
• Knockback
  
• Slow
  
• Breakable CCs
  

 

Now in older MMORPGs such as World Of warcraft, these things have excisted as well. So what makes SWTOR different?

 

Stun Limits

This was introduced by Bioware in order to counter games were you are stunned practically 90% of the time. It is not fun looking at your character not being able to do anything besides watching yourself slowly getting killed.

 

So lets look at the top list. First lets list what kind of CCs this stun limit affects.

 

• Stun
  
• Breakable CC
  

 

Thats it. If you reach the stunlimit you can still be rooted, slowed and knockedback.

Now lets look at the following scenario as a Ranged Dps:

My job is to DPS. I need to make sure that targets stay away. Without slow/roots, I cant keep melee dps away from me. Without Knockback I cant push them off. That is why I have these utilities.

 

And as a melee dps:

My job is to DPS. I need to make sure I am close to my target in order to deal damage. Without Root/Slow/Stun I will not be able to reach my target. That is why I have these abilities.

 

So. that seems fair enough. So where is the problem?

The Problem

Due to the fact that in any situation were a melee and a ranged class fights eachother, the only CC which affects LIMITS is STUN. This means that the ranged class now has an upper hand towards melee classes and gives melee classes a problem.

 

But is this true?

 

Melee Vs Ranged

Ok, so we have adressed the issue with only having Stun CC Limits. So lets discuss if this really is a problem.

 

Ask yourself:

 

- How will a melee counter a 100% slow?

- How will a melee counter a root?

 

The answer is Stun. You incapazitate your target for a short moment so you can get back in the fight. Now here is the problem: stun limits.

If the target has reached the stunlimits, a melee is at most cases ****ed and will need to retreat in order to regain the ability to get back in the fight. However due to Knockback, Slow and root this becomes next to impossible.

 

The Solution

So how do we fix this? How can we bring melee back into the fight? its simple.

 

Add the following:

- Root Limit bar

- Slow Limit bar

- Knockback Limit bar

Why do we want this? Because a melee being rooted/knocked back/slowed is as crucial for them as it is for a ranged to be stunned.

 

Lets look at the facts: Can Attack, Can momentarely not attack, Cannot Attack

 

When a melee is Stunned: Cannot Attack

When a melee is Rooted: Cannot Attack

When a melee is knockedback: Cannot Attack until he reaches his target again.

When a melee is Slowed: Cannot Attack before he reaches target again.

 

When a Ranged class is Stunned: Cannot Attack

When a Ranged class is Rooted: Can Attack

When a Ranged class is Knockedback: Momentarely unable to attack

when a Ranged class is Slowed: Can Attack

 

As you see this becomes a huge problem for melee because the only true counter melee has is Stuns but unfortunately this is the only current CC that affects a limit.

 

As for the ranged, he doesnt have to worry too much because he does not have these issues. He can be slowed, rooted and knocked back as much as you want it will not cause the same major impacts as it will for a melee dps.

 

Why people feel this game values ranged classes more

Consider a circle. Now consider 30 small rings which are split by 1meter radius. Consider your target in the middle of this circle.

 

A melee can hit his target in 4/30 of the circles with the main abilities. He needs to use his utility in order to stay in the fight.

A Ranged can hit his target in 30/30 of the circles with the main abilities.

 

this gives the ranged a 26/30 or a 86.666% Damage Advantage to his target.

Normally other games have countered this by making melee classes hit much harder so that in a timezone of t, the amount of damage x will equal the amount of damage received f(x) so that the game itself becomes more of a skillbased trade than a melee trying to reach ranged classes.

 

An easy example of this is to cut a fight into 10 frames.

Take this example with a grain of salt as it is a fictional example and never the reality.

Following scenario should be given for two targets with equal gear and skill for the sake of the study.

 

1 frame: a melee hits a ranged

2 frame: a ranged stuns melee

3 frame: a ranged hits a melee

4 frame: a melee stun ranged

5 frame: a melee hits a ranged

6 frame: a ranged knocks and slows a melee

7 frame: a ranged hits a melee trying to reach target

8 frame: a ranged hits a melee trying to reach target

9 frame: a melee hits a ranged / a ranged hits a melee

10 frame: 1 of the Targets die

 

The melee hits 3 times

The ranged hits 4 times

 

This means that the overall damage output between the ranged and melee should be the same so that the melee still reaches the same amount of overall damage despite his lack of damageframes (4/30).

 

Why The Limits to Root/Knockback/Slow will fix the problem

The biggest problem for a melee is constantly being slowed, rooted and knockedback in comparison to having a huge stunlimitation towards his targets. Giving limits to the listed CCs will get Melee back in the fight and will give melee an equal chance to fight as a ranged.

 

Comment, Debate and Discuss!

 

-Z

 

EDIT: I did NOT bring up LOS because this thread is about the CCs, both Melee and Ranged can be kited by LOS and therefor any difference between a ranged and a melee becomes a value of +0. And as a mathematical rule you can leave out values of +0 from an equation as they have no value to the solution.

 

Additional Notes

The Class Sage/Sorc has been listed as overpowered in many cases. Based on the study above I believe the reason is a combination of Stun, Sprint, Root, Slow, Bubble and knockback.

 

Because there are no limits / diminishing returns to root, slow and knockback and because a sage/sorc can always bubble when the melee actually does get in range, it becomes little to impossible for a melee class to get this class down.

 

I think adding diminishing returns (CC Limits) to roots, slows and knockbacks will fix the above issue.

 

UM...lets see here. As a merc BH I have:

 

1 4s stun on a 1m CD (electro dart)

1 sleep (2s cast) but also heals target...not so good in pvp....

1 big knockback with a 60% slow on a 15s CD

1 4 meter knockback w/ dmg on a 9s CD

1 talented 50%, 2s slow on my unload

 

No gap closer, easily intertupted, easily LoS'd, no stealth. So, can you explain again how I'm OP CC-wise when our stuff is on CD. OH, could you also send that memo out to those 2 mauraders who were eating me for lunch today in Huttball. I don't think they got it...

[Zlashie]

No one should take the OPs post seriously, even if you agree that ranged are better than melee.

 

If you want to objective and actually compare the two you need to KNOW and list their advantage and disadvatages together. The OP does nothing but list ranged advantages and none of the melee advantages.

 

I think there are a lot of players who are ignorant to the advantages melee have, they do exsist. Do they make up for the advantages ranged have? thats debateable, but if you actually want to argue one way or the other you should have all of the facts.

 

Name them and il look into it.

 

Brotip: Be a little more friendly. The thread I made is objective. Did I write "Ranged is OP nerf?" NO. I wrote "Im going to look into it". If you think I missed something can you please have the courtesy to say that in a respectful way insted of taking a hit at me?

 

Thank you.

[Exilim]

Are Inquisitors and Consulars all ranged? Cause that's all I see in the WZ's.

 

I don't even think someone them realize that they are ranged. I'm probably not the only one who notices them running right up into my face to lightning spam.

[Zlashie]

UM...lets see here. As a merc BH I have:

 

1 4s stun on a 1m CD (electro dart)

1 sleep (2s cast) but also heals target...not so good in pvp....

1 big knockback with a 60% slow on a 15s CD

1 4 meter knockback w/ dmg on a 9s CD

1 talented 50%, 2s slow on my unload

 

No gap closer, easily intertupted, easily LoS'd, no stealth. So, can you explain again how I'm OP CC-wise when our stuff is on CD. OH, could you also send that memo out to those 2 mauraders who were eating me for lunch today in Huttball. I don't think they got it...

 

1. As a merc BH you dont have to even kite Melee. Most mercs I see can stand still and dps and laugh.

 

2. Your example only proves one thing: The class balance between ranged and melee is not balanced. As an example it does sound like you do not have the needed tools to keep melee away from you whilst classes like sorc/sages have too many.

 

-Z

[Zaigen]

he has alot of points. but you can't reinvent the wheel. melee ALWAYS had a disadvantage in every game. Higher skilled players do well in pvp. lower skilled players do not.

 

but yes it can be frustrating to get wtfpwnd by someone pressing 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 as you were so occupied training that healer. the key difference is a melee can do the same only its more obvious to you.

[Bakarn]

Most ranged DPS classes have to be rooted in order to attack. Snipers have to be completely stationary for long periods of time to do so. BHs and Troopers do as well. So do Sith.

 

Melee with very few exceptions are almost constantly mobile and attacking.

 

Everyone forgets that distinction.

 

- Jedi Guardian

[trumpsofdoom]

We also have to add in that the warrior classes have to build thier focus to use abiltys where every other class starts with a full bar

[Zaigen]

We also have to add in that the warrior classes have to build thier focus to use abiltys where every other class starts with a full bar

 

2 globals later puts them at 8-9 focus

[IREcko]

Ranged can dps from 30m away (auto-face ftw) AND up close

 

Melee CANT

[Xenon-se]

1. As a merc BH you dont have to even kite Melee. Most mercs I see can stand still and dps and laugh.

Bad Player vs Bad Player = Tracer Missiles win

Good Player vs Good Player = Tracer Missiles lose

 

 

tl;dr L2P

Edited February 11, 2012 by Xenon-se

[Zlashie]

I am curious to how many here actually spent the time to read the entire post.

 

No one has discussed the solution I brought to the table: Most people seem to only have read the title and quickly assume my thread is about bashing ranged classes and calling them OP. It is not.

 

In my post I discussed the stun limits of melee vs ranged and adressed a problem. Here is the problem, feel free to discuss. (keep in mind that LOS has a value of +0 in this equation and was thus not brought o the table).

 

• Stun: affects both ranged and melee dps
  
• Slow: Does not limit the dps of a ranged / limits the dps of a melee
  
• Root: Does not limit the dps of a ranged / limits the dps of a melee
  
• Knockback: Limits a melee x*t+1.5 more than a ranged
  
• Breakable CC: affects both ranged and melee dps
  

 

With this observation I pressented a problem. Only stun is limited by a diminishing returns / bar in pvp. Non of the other are.

 

A melee being rooted/slowed/knocked back has the same crucial effect as it has to a ranged being stunned but not the other way around.

 

I then pressented the solution:

Add a diminishing returns / limit to roots, slows and knockbacks as well because stunning is a major factor for a melee.

 

Now based on this suggestion I would like people to actually discuss the above; Not discuss whether or not ranged are overpowered. thank you

 

tl;dr

 

This thread is not about nerfing ranged classes. It is about the CC in the game.

 

-Z

[AzKnc]

Ranged classes dominating?

 

Not sure what game you're playing, but in swtor the most overpowered classes are sentinel/marauder and shadow/assassin, at high level of gear, bm+, they're the only ones posing an actual threat in terms of damage and sustained pressure (that's when someone is healing and they don't 3-4 hit their target, that is), while being filled to the rim with utility/survivability tools.

 

Slows and roots definitely need to go on resolve as well, don't see why they have to be special, while as for the above mentioned classes, i wouldn't be much for tuning down their damage (even if it's borering on insanity, provided the player has fingers) but rather remove some of their tools or make the cooldowns longer cause as they are now it's a joke.

Edited February 11, 2012 by AzKnc

[shotokan_Ulic]

Dude im a BH mercenary BM , any melee that jumps u just interupts tracer, then knock backs then stuns then follows with another interupt. seriously if anything ur argument isnt even viable, range are good if left alone to kill but once a melee locks u down ur fkd.

[AzKnc]

Dude im a BH mercenary BM , any melee that jumps u just interupts tracer, then knock backs then stuns then follows with another interupt. seriously if anything ur argument isnt even viable, range are good if left alone to kill but once a melee locks u down ur fkd.

 

Precisely, as a ranged unless you've got some sort of terrain that allows you to manage the relentless assault of melees you're ****ed. They have way more tools to stay on you and keep you snared rooted controlled interrupted than you have to get them off you.

 

Unless there's a severe gear imbalance in favor of the ranged, the ranged will always have to outplay the melee in order to win, it really is that simple, in any no brainer "bash good" contest the melees will always win.

 

BY THE WAY I am not counting sage/sorc as rangeds, they count as clowns, their own category.

Edited February 11, 2012 by AzKnc