Why Ranged Classes Dominate This Game and Why It needs a fix

[Kolbenito]

Ranged having more CC is called "Balance"

 

How it gets ****ed up is really straight forward.

 

- Ranged is given a number of defensive tools to get away from melee.

- Ranged gets damage that works from 0-30m.

 

- Melee gets a CD or two to get in melee range.

- Melee range is 4m.

 

Who has more "uptime"?

 

Obviously it's the Ranged.

 

Who should have damage per GCD?

 

Obviously the melee

 

When those become tangled for any reason you have problems. WoW hasn't cracked this in 7 years and it's a lot more polished and complete of PVP game than this one is. Mythic might surprise us.

 

There is also just a thing about people in multi player games that they jump to blaming everything but their poor play for why they lost. They never get better or learn how to counter something, just beg for nerfs so they can keep on being terrible and feel good.

You will see this in literally any game with people playing against each other.

[klathnagma]

You are completely right.

 

BW should give melee any kind of mechanism to close the gap with ranged such as:

 

• Stealth
  
• Sprint
  
• Charge
  
• Grapple
  

 

... or any combination suchs as charge/stun, grapple/root, stealth/cc.

 

Without those mechanisms ... oohh wait !!!

[BobaFurz]

It is not the nature of the MMO that Melee Fighters are at the mercy of the Ranged Fighters, because not every MMO has a jacked up Class system where Ranged classes can be Tanks, Healers, and Nukers all in one build. Usually, this is not as big a problem, because the Ranged classes are ALWAYS squishy. This simply is not the case in TOR.

 

Yeah the need to intterupt their dmg in close combat did make me giggle

[Raice]

You are completely right.

 

BW should give melee any kind of mechanism to close the gap with ranged such as:

 

• Stealth
  
• Sprint
  
• Charge
  
• Grapple
  

 

... or any combination suchs as charge/stun, grapple/root, stealth/cc.

 

Without those mechanisms ... oohh wait !!!

 

As a Scrapper, I have several builds to choose from that will give me a myriad of different Stuns/Roots/Snares options. I also have Stealth at my disposal.

 

All of these stuns and snares and roots can only be used in Melee Range. A simply Knockback (which all Ranged Classes have) pretty much mandates that I will not be using these abilities.

 

Stealth is an interesting one, though. Of course, since I'm stealthed... I'm not doing anything anyway... unless I'm in Melee Range.... by which point my stealth breaks on my first attack. Which makes that person subsequently use a Knockback and then snare/root... none of which affects my Resolve.

 

If I can't attack the target, then I might as well be Stunned. All this stuff does is allow the Ranged class to get away with some free Stuns on top of their actual Stuns. It's borked.

 

I also don't have a Gap Closer.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Raice

[Raice]

Yeah the need to intterupt their dmg in close combat did make me giggle

 

What's bad is I can't even interrupt unless I'm in Melee Range lol.

[nowocinm]

Knockbacks do not work on full resolve bar players. Also another thing that should be mentioned is that melee can stop ranged damage/greatly reduce it with interrupts which every melee class has (as I understaand it). Interrupts should be mentioned.

 

If slows and roots are both added to resolve bar immunity ranged will then get the short end.

 

As is I believe the problem is that sorcs/sages can spam a slowing ability and are even encouraged to do so

[Raice]

Knockbacks do not work on full resolve bar players. Also another thing that should be mentioned is that melee can stop ranged damage/greatly reduce it with interrupts which every melee class has (as I understaand it). Interrupts should be mentioned.

 

If slows and roots are both added to resolve bar immunity ranged will then get the short end.

 

As is I believe the problem is that sorcs/sages can spam a slowing ability and are even encouraged to do so

 

We only have 1 Interrupt and we have to be in Melee Range to use it. Knockbacks DO affect you with a full Resolve - happens all the time - and they do not produce Resolve. I have literally been knocked between players 4 times in a row before, only to be knocked off the bridge in Voidstar.

 

KnockDOWNS, however, DO produce Resolve. This is why the Knockdown affect on KO for Scoundrels was such a big deal.

[nowocinm]

Unless that is a recent change having knockbacks work on full resolve players I am thoroughly confused.

 

As a trooper both concussion charge and stockstrike have always generated resolve and using both right awau on someone creates a full resolve bar. If they were intended to work the *** has happened everytime I've used it. Would really like help on that issue then

[Raice]

Unless that is a recent change having knockbacks work on full resolve players I am thoroughly confused.

 

As a trooper both concussion charge and stockstrike have always generated resolve and using both right awau on someone creates a full resolve bar. If they were intended to work the *** has happened everytime I've used it. Would really like help on that issue then

 

I think a lot of the confusion comes in how the abilities actually work. I could be wrong about it, but I know that I am constantly knocked around like a damn ragdoll. Doesn't matter if I have 0 Resolve or I'm in "Stun Immunity". There might be something in your attack that constitutes it as a Knock Down instead of a Knock Back. Some Knock-backs have built in Knock-Downs, and those WILL generate Resolve.

[Gformutorila]

Now I will be honest I have not read the previous 24 pages of this thread. But I do not agree with the OP. Yes some ranged classes seem a bit OP, sorc/sage mainly. But if you look at snipers they are anything but OP. Right now I think they are the weakest PvP class. If you look at who is getting the most medals and top damageyou will see sorc/sage marauder etc. Some classes like sniper will always be at the bottom.

[nowocinm]

Both of them say "knockback" and I just used them and they both generated resolve. Who has the overpowered knockback that works through stun immunity is what I want to know and when will they be nerfed?

[mBass]

Sorcerers asking for buffs would sound less ridiculous than this thread. The only classes that I have trouble with are melee and the two most dangerous are the ones complaining about not having gap closers.

[biowareftw]

Now I will be honest I have not read the previous 24 pages of this thread. But I do not agree with the OP. Yes some ranged classes seem a bit OP, sorc/sage mainly. But if you look at snipers they are anything but OP. Right now I think they are the weakest PvP class. If you look at who is getting the most medals and top damageyou will see sorc/sage marauder etc. Some classes like sniper will always be at the bottom.

 

If sorc/sages are brought down to reality slinger/sniper is a damn good counter to charge melee.

 

It isn't that slinger/sniper is bad. It is that an equally skilled player will do much better on the hybrid specced sorc/sage and a lesser player can do much better on a merc/commando.

 

Once they balance things out a bit sniper/slinger will be very good. They are already really good (they really shine past 40ish). It is just there are easier to play, better options atm.

[Raice]

Both of them say "knockback" and I just used them and they both generated resolve. Who has the overpowered knockback that works through stun immunity is what I want to know and when will they be nerfed?

 

I have no idea. Probably Sorcerers... I mean, I'm just spit-balling when I say that, but everything else they do is total BS - why not one more thing?

 

I'm not kidding - I have literally been knocked around 3-4 times in a row and ended up being knocked off the bridge or into the green goo on huttball... it pisses me off. Considering the amount of people who play Sorcerers, and the frequency on my server that I often times end up playing a group of nothing but... it wouldn't surprise me.

[BobaFurz]

Now I will be honest I have not read the previous 24 pages of this thread. But I do not agree with the OP. Yes some ranged classes seem a bit OP, sorc/sage mainly. But if you look at snipers they are anything but OP. Right now I think they are the weakest PvP class. If you look at who is getting the most medals and top damageyou will see sorc/sage marauder etc. Some classes like sniper will always be at the bottom.

 

To easy not to agree with the OP if you just skip all 24 pages. Its not about every ranged class but especially about those over 60% of the peopl are playing in BG´s. You should play a warrior class by yourself and see how much cc you have to soak in, you dont expirience this with any ranged class. Btw sniper is probably a later bloomer and some who use their own cc wisely are not that easy to take down. But I agree that they have their problems.

Edited February 13, 2012 by BobaFurz

[Reli_BOON]

All Mercs/Sorcs that rerolled to Mara/Jugg and now use that as their main plz raise their hands.

 

Anyone?

Yep, thats what i thought.

/thread

[Lemmy_DB]

Not read all the thread either but I was leaning towards thinking that the problem is that most melee classes aren't really any harder to take down than ranged. Imho if you get close enough to melee a ranged class, he should drop quick. Giving melee-dps more dmg than ranged would unbalance pve - but making them harder to kill? - shouldn't cause problems there.

 

Think about it.. the OP described a 30m circle that the ranged guy can hit people in.. He only needs to position so that 1 enemy is within that circle - making himself pretty safe from attack while still being able to do dmg himself. Your melee guy usually has to put himslef within that circle of the majority of the enemy rdps.. he then gets focused simply because he's the closest target.. he's also usually cc'd and so takes time to either escape or get to his target. Needs to be harder to kill imho so he has a bit more time.

[maximusedward]

LOS is not a reliable way to avoid taking a hit and is not a very good argument against the problems with Snares/Roots.

last I checked when I was casting my 2.5 sec ambush/snipe combo it was easily interrupted by a wall.

 

LOS does not protect you against DoT.

It sure doesnt but it can sure protect you from direct attacks.

 

LOS does not protect you when you need to heal, but can't heal while you are moving.

Then youre doing something wrong.

LOS does not allow you to win a fight, because you need to see your opponent to kill them.

Ever heard of kite and dot? Also using los to avoid dmg can buy you enough time to reset some cd on those abilities that you need, I ve seen enough guardians/juggernauts use this.

Yes even melee can kite.

 

LOS does not help the Melee fighter. It only helps other Ranged fighters.

Against a sniper it will.

 

LOS does not help Melee Fighters who do not have a gap closer - Scoundrels/Operatives.

I take it scoundrels/operatives dont have have a flashbang nor range root/snare? I also forgot they dont have a range tree whith a 30m skill that has the option of a snare.

Not to mention they will always get the first 5 sec of the fight.

 

LOS does not help you when you are taking damage and are Snared - because you can't get to it.

Obviously youre snared and withing LOS.

 

LOS does not bother a Ranged Class unless YOU are a Ranged class - because if you aren't a Ranged class... you simply will not hurt them.

Youre right because range classes are the only class in game with the universal ability to see through an object.

 

Everyone should be immune to Roots and Snares when they are on Resolve Cooldown. The only people who do not want this, are Ranged Classes, because for them... it doesn't matter. This sort of change will only effect Melee Fighters - who more or less are at the mercy of Ranged classes because of this very reason.

Agree on roots but not snares, snares only slows you down but doesnt disable your char.

 

It is not the nature of the MMO that Melee Fighters are at the mercy of the Ranged Fighters, because not every MMO has a jacked up Class system where Ranged classes can be Tanks, Healers, and Nukers all in one build. Usually, this is not as big a problem, because the Ranged classes are ALWAYS squishy. This simply is not the case in TOR.

Last I checked all the popular MMOrpgs ranged classes dominated when BW released WAR which class do you think was the most dominant?

BWs.

 

There is no auto attack in this game. Most range have stuns and cc as well as instant attacks they can use while moving. All ranged have knock backs of some form.

As well as melees.

If you move out of Los when a skill is already being cast, it goes through.

I wont even.............

 

Tell me what charge you think shadows, operatives, assassins, smugglers and non tank vanguards have that allow them to leap back up after being knocked down down from a platform.

Assassins can dash forward like the wind get out of los and move on with their lives, scoundrels could go invisible go hide somewhere and spam rapid scan, and somehow vanguards became an all melee class?

 

 

You are completely right.

 

BW should give melee any kind of mechanism to close the gap with ranged such as:

 

• Stealth
  
• Sprint
  
• Charge
  
• Grapple
  

 

... or any combination suchs as charge/stun, grapple/root, stealth/cc.

 

Without those mechanisms ... oohh wait !!!

You forgot to add

 

[*]snare

 

[*]Pull

Oooh wait!!!

Edited February 16, 2012 by maximusedward

[AKfourtyseven]

All Mercs/Sorcs that rerolled to Mara/Jugg and now use that as their main plz raise their hands.

 

Anyone?

Yep, thats what i thought.

/thread

 

*Raises hand*

 

Sorc was my main, last week i logged it only to craft saber components and transfer money to my Jugg, other than attempting my weekly before getting bored and switching back.

 

Jugg is infinitely more interesting to play.

Edited February 16, 2012 by AKfourtyseven

[T-Assassin]

here's how i see it...as a Battlemaster 50 Assassin and a VR48 level 48 Sniper, and a lowly 25/25 Merc (and a 50 Op on test, mostly same as assassin):

 

melee has - jump, sprint, invis, pull, snare on hit.

 

ranged has - the stuff you mentioned before...

 

i've never been kited to death on my Assassin...never! i have so many tools that i will kill you, i will stealth and survive, or i will stealth after u blow CD's, get back in range, and kill you!!

 

on my sniper, i stun, root, pop cover, stun, root, run, run, root....and LAUGH at the ones that stand there doing nothing when rooted, use their CD to break the root, use invis after i dot them and don't cleanse, etc.

 

i die to the smart ones.. the marauders, assassins, then juggs that time their stuns, pop def cooldowns at the right time, interrupt, snare, jump, choke, destroy me if they get on me...

 

and i destroy them...if i get the jump, crit hard, counter their CD's properly, interrupt, etc. etc.

 

mechanics and classes are BALANCED...

 

expertise, faction #'s, lack of ilum objectives is not...

 

Edited February 16, 2012 by T-Assassin