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Is Rapid Recovery still a "must have" talent for tanks?


MithrilSoul

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Someone else raised this question recently but the thread got pissy so I figured I would try to frame the discussion in a more civilized manner. The following analysis is for Shadow tanks only, specced using the standard PvE 31/0/10 spec.

 

With the changes to the way Combat Technique works in the latest patch, i.e. reducing how often it can proc (but doing more healing when it does), what does the math say about how useful Rapid Recovery is now with the new changes?

 

Base value, CT gives a 50% chance on every attack to heal you and do some extra damage. Cannot occur more often than once every 4.5 seconds. Rapid recovery (2/2 points) increases this from 50% chance to a 65% chance. But the limitation (once every 4.5s) remains. So assuming you get 3 attacks off every 4.5 seconds, in its base state, CT should pop 87.5% of the time. If you invest 2 talent points into Rapid Recovery, CT should pop roughly 96% of the time.

 

So that translates to a difference of 1 extra CT proc every 45 seconds of fighting (give or take). So on a per-minute basis, that averages out (at level 50) to approximately an extra 300 damage per minute (the CT damage component) and an extra 618 healing per minute (the CT healing component).

 

 

Now, let's compare that to some other options for those 2 points. Let's say you put those 2 points into Expertise, figuring it would give you a small (but consistent) increase in your damage. How much damage?

 

With one CT proc every 4.5 seconds, that's 13.3333 procs per minute. Each CT does 229 internal damage, or 3053 damage per minute. A 6% bonus to that is a whopping... 183 more damage per minute. So even on a pure damage basis, ignoring the healing part of CT entirely, you get more bonus damage per minute from 2/2 in Rapid Recovery than you do from putting those 2 talent points into Expertise. The only thing the Expertise gives you is damage that is more consistent (less spikey), which could be better or worse depending upon what you are looking for.

 

Okay, so other than Expertise, what are your other options? Well you could put those 2 points into Mental Fortitude to increase your endurance. I'm not sure what kind of endurance numbers endgame-geared shadow tanks have, I know my lvl 48 (with ok but not great) gear has a little over 1000 endurance so I'll project a bit and let's say a lvl 50 shadow averages maybe 1200 endurance. A 2% bonus to that is an extra 24 endurance, or in other words, 240 health. Again, compared to an increased self-healing of an extra ~ 600 healing-per-minute, a baseline increase of 240 seems very underwhelming in comparison.

 

In conclusion, even with the changes to the way Combat Technique procs work, Rapid Recovery is still a must-have skill that provides more bang-for-the buck for those two talent points than really any of the other options a Shadow Tank might consider as alternatives.

 

I would welcome any discussion of this if people have other ideas.

Edited by MithrilSoul
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Thanks for posting this. I had been looking at the numbers and realized how little it was. Then I looked at the others, and realized how poor they were as well. Can we just call it the second tier of apathy?

 

I ended up coming to the same conclusion. Pretty meaningless, but still Rapid Recovery seemed like the best place to put the skill points.

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Thanks for doing the math. One thing I would point out is that the value of Rapid Recovery rises rapidly during fights where you can't maintain consistent uptime on the opponent, rises further during Battle Readiness, and lowers when you're able to launch multiple Double Strikes.
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Thanks for doing the math. One thing I would point out is that the value of Rapid Recovery

 

...rises rapidly during fights where you can't maintain consistent uptime on the opponent,

 

Yep, I hadn't considered that but it is definitely true.

 

...rises further during Battle Readiness,

 

Again something I hadn't considered but also very true.

 

...and lowers when you're able to launch multiple Double Strikes.

 

 

Ahh yes, because each of the two blows has a chance to proc the effect, right? Which also means that, by extension, lowers still more if you are in a fight where you are using Whirling Blow a lot (which, honestly, very rarely happens for most of us).

 

All three are good points. The third doesn't detract from the initial conclusion, especially since the first two support it even more. I think we can basically all agree that Rapid Recovery is still worth the points, even if the effect isn't entirely overwhelming. :)

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You're doing the math for Combat Technique entirely wrong.

 

It doesn't matter how many procs you could get within a 4.5 second window since it's an internal cooldown, not an activation window. The 4.5 sec ICD is added to any amount of time it takes to generate the proc in the first place. The best way to determine the proc rate is actually to determine the amount of time you can expect before getting a proc and then adding it to 4.5 seconds. You determine the amount of time required by determining how many attacks you should expect on average before getting a proc (50% chance is 2 attacks; 65% chance is 1.54 attacks) and comparing that to the average number of attacks made per second (2 attacks/GCD assuming a sustainable use paradigm for 1.33 attacks/sec) to determine the amount of time you can expect, after the ICD comes up, before getting a proc. This number is 1.5 secs for the 50% chance and 1.15 secs for the 65% chance. So, factoring in the 4.5 sec ICD, you get expected proc rates of 6 seconds and 5.65 seconds, respectively. At 464 hp and 229 damage per proc, this amounts to 77 hp/sec compared to 82 hp/sec, or 5 hp/sec difference, and 3.8 dam/sec compared to 40.5 dam/sec, or 2.5 dam/sec difference. Over a 1 minute fight, this is 300 hp and 150 damage. Over an actual raid boss fight (5 minutes at a minimum), this is 1500 hp and 750 damage.

 

Compared to Expertise (for damage), you're getting 13.7 additional damage (229 * .06) per proc which amounts to 2.3 damage/sec (13.7 / 6). Rapid Recovery still has the advantage from a pure damage perspective.

 

Mental Fortitude provides 2% more Endurance. Assuming 1500 Endurance (what you should have by the time you start doing HMs and Ops), that's 330 more hp (1.7% more hit points). Factoring in the max hp scaling healing of Harnessed Shadows (which is the actual important benefit from higher Endurance as a Shadow), you're getting roughly 130 hp/sec from HS, which is increased by the 1.7% higher max hp for a total benefit of an additional 2.21 hp/sec. Rapid Recovery still has the advantage from a pure survivability perspective.

 

The conclusion is still the same (Rapid Recovery is better for both damage *and* survivability than either Expertise or Mental Fortitude), but the math for their contributions is actually correct.

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Here's the correct math, taken directly from Sithwarrior.com here

 

Here's some math on Combat Technique procs, while I'm bored during maintenance. Apologies if this is already worked out.

 

The model is that we making attacks at some steady rate, R. We will look at the dependence on our assumed attack rate R later.

 

The chance of proc per attack (if not on ICD), is q. The base value of q = 0.5, with +0.075 per point in Rapid Recovery.

 

The rate of Combat Technique procs P will then be

 

P = qR * f,

 

where f is the fraction of the time the proc is *not* on ICD. Finding f is the key to understanding the problem.

 

When the ICD expires, we will make some number k attacks (k >= 0) with no proc, followed by one attack which *does* proc, and starts the ICD. During these k+1 attacks, the proc will not be on ICD, and after them, there will be an ICD lasting some duration T (T = 4.5s normally, or 3.0 s during OCS/Battle-readiness).

 

If we are attacking at a rate R, making k+1 attacks will require a time t = (k+1)/R.

 

The fraction of time on ICD for a single proc is then:

 

1 - f = T/(t + T)

 

Over many procs, the fraction of time on ICD will be

 

1 - f = T/(<t> + T),

 

where <t> is the average uptime per proc. Since t is directly related to k,

 

<t> =(<k>+1)/R

 

The distribution of k obeys a negative binomial distribution, p(k,r), where r = 1 in our case. The average value of k is

 

<k> = (1-q)/q

 

Therefore (after a little algebra):

 

<t> = 1/(qR)

 

and uptime fraction f is

 

f = 1/(TqR + 1)

 

As a check, note that f->1 if the ICD duration T, the proc chance q, or the attack rate R is very small, and f->0 as any of them get very large. So f behaves as expected.

 

Finally, the actual proc rate will be

 

P = qR/(TqR + 1) = q/(qT + 1/R)

 

Note 1/R is the time between attacks.

 

To find the corresponding HPS, just multiply by the size of the heal proc (425.1 at Level 50, I believe). To find the corresponding DPS, multiply by the size of damage proc.

 

Finally we can plug in some numbers if we assume a value for R. The lower limit of R is 1 attack per GCD, R = 0.67. The practical upper limit for R is 3 attacks per GCD, R = 2.0. And probably the most reasonable (rough) estimate for R is 2 attacks per GCD, R = 1.33. To make the numbers more readable, I will quote the rates in PPM (procs per minute).

 

R = 1/GCD:

 

q = 0.500: 8.00 PPM (=baseline; 3400 HPM at L50)

q = 0.575: 8.44 PPM (=baseline + 5.5%)

q = 0.650: 8.81 PPM (=baseline + 9.6%)

 

R = 2/GCD:

 

q = 0.500: 10.00 PPM (=baseline; 4251 HPM at L50)

q = 0.575: 10.34 PPM (=baseline + 3.4%)

q = 0.650: 10.61 PPM (=baseline + 5.9%)

 

R = 3/GCD:

 

q = 0.500: 10.91 PPM (=baseline; 4638 HPM at L50)

q = 0.575: 11.17 PPM (=baseline + 2.4%)

q = 0.650: 11.39 PPM (=baseline + 4.3%)

 

So the conclusion is that each point in Rapid Recovery buys you roughly +3% to the actual proc rate of Combat Technique, or about +125 HPM at L50, assuming roughly 2 attacks per GCD.

 

When the reduced ICD buff is in effect, the %increase is about 4% per point invested.

 

The reason these numbers are much lower than +7.5%/50% =+15% of baseline per point is due to the ICD, obviously. For 2 attacks/GCD and 50% proc chance, you are on ICD 75% of the time.

 

It is tricky to compare +hit points to +healing. If you have around 20k hit points, then the +2% would buy you about +400 extra hit points. Two points in Rapid Recovery would buy you about +250 HPM. So in a fight lasting ~2 minutes or less, the extra hit points are definitely superior. In a longer fight, the extra healing will exceed the base hit points, and the trade-off becomes more complicated.

 

If you are using Harnessed Shadows/Darkness, the extra hit points will increase that heal (slightly). If you use it twice a minute, +2% Endurance is roughly +100 HPM from HS/HD - not as good as Recovery, but 40% of it.

 

Personally, I am putting no points in either Rapid Recovery or Expertise, and 3/3 in Mental Fortitude. For difficult content, where the damage is big, and spikes or overhealing will be an issue, I think the extra hit points are the way to go. In my mind heavy damage will render an extra 250 HPM irrelevant, and a higher HP base more valuable.

 

Basically, Rapid recovery is pretty much useless, but Expertise is even more worthless, so Mental Fortitude is the best bet now a days.

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@Arbegla:

 

Though I don't disagree with the math that you provided I cant help but notice that the T value he used is incorrect (the calculations use a T=4.5). You would be better off using a T value of T=((4.5*105+3.0*15)/120)=4.3125. This allows the above equations to include the use of Battle Readiness on CD, which during most boss battles should probably be accounted for.

 

This slightly adjusts the HPM to 260.2041. Not a huge difference, but do to the difference between Kitru's and your arguments being only 50 HPM, a 10 HPM adjustment is a fairly significant factor.

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I'm at 25k hp. At what amount of HP does the added endurance from talents overcome the healing from the extra procs? 15k is rather low does adding another 10k make a big enough difference?

 

1500 Endurance is actually 17500 hit points (2500 base + 1500 end * 10 hp), so 25000 hp is 750 additional Endurance. Either way...

 

To get Mental Fortitude to beat out Rapid Recovery, you need to get enough hit points to make the improvements to a 12% heal every ~16 seconds greater than 5 hp/sec. Since you get 2500 hp base, we're just going to ignore that and add it in at the end. 2% of a 12% heal every 16 seconds (.015% hp/sec) is equal to 5 hp/sec at 33333 hp. Add the additional 2500 hp to that, and you see that, in order for Mental Fortitude to add more hp/sec (without factoring in Battle Readiness), it requires you get to 35833 hp.

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Over an actual raid boss fight (5 minutes at a minimum), this is 1500 hp and 750 damage.

 

why do they even bother putting a proc on combat tech. Thats so weak I could take a crap and throw it at my monitor and get more use. Good lord.

 

:(

I've never understood heal procs. They dont scale well. Always under or overpowered. They should at least make it % based.

 

IE the proc puts a buff on us. "when hit applies XX damage to target and heals caster for XX% of damage received. This can trigger once."

 

Percentage is small. Caster can only have 1 of these buffs at a time. idk makes sense to me. Scales a lot better.

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why do they even bother putting a proc on combat tech. Thats so weak I could take a crap and throw it at my monitor and get more use. Good lord.

 

The quoted quantity is the additional benefits gained by from the talent, not by the ability as a whole. Combat Technique is, overall, very strong. It's roughly 70 hp/sec from healing and 35 dam/sec. While it might not seem like much, it adds up over time.

 

I've never understood heal procs. They dont scale well. Always under or overpowered. They should at least make it % based.

 

There's no rule that states that a heal proc has to be a flat quantity which is why it always perturbs me. Personally, I'd be more than happy if CT scaled with something *other* than level. It seems utterly inane to me that the developers would provide *any* effect in game that doesn't scale with something other than level. Making it so that something scales with only level is simply making it scale regressively since the better gear you get, the worse it gets.

 

My only hope is that the developers are still working on Shadow Tanks and don't think they're working just fine as is. It's pretty obvious we're the least polished tanks and, in all likelihood, the ones with the least math done for them by the devs, and it makes sense as such (since we're the "newest" tanks from a development standpoint). I really hope the devs actually put forth some effort to finish polishing the class off since a number of our mechanics are going to get pretty fuzzy in their utility when they start releasing higher tier content.

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ty for the update, from a pure healing standpoint apparently I'd need about 10k more hp, not gonna happen heh.

I still went with the endurance talent and the cd dreduction on our force/tech immunity and sprint because of the number of knockback mechanics make sprint very useful and the force/tech immunity is the only damage reduction cooldown we have available for non physical encounters. Also like was mentioned in the sith warrior forums it's rarely your healers running out of force/ammo that leads to the wipes it's spike damage, or damage you take while healers are somehow incapacitated that leads to it, so a larger buffer of hp would be more useful than a consistent hpm.

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Also like was mentioned in the sith warrior forums it's rarely your healers running out of force/ammo that leads to the wipes it's spike damage, or damage you take while healers are somehow incapacitated that leads to it, so a larger buffer of hp would be more useful than a consistent hpm.

 

The issue with this is that the 3% increased hp from Mental Fortitude isn't going to be enough to keep you alive for a vast majority of those spike damage situations since, in order for Mental Fortitude to have actually kept you alive, you'd need to have been precision killed by the boss. Assuming you take 3 points in Mental Fortitude instead of the 1 point that the "standard" Kinetic build espouses, at 25k hp (2250 Endurance), for the additional hit points from Mental Fortitude to have saved you, you need to have been reduced to 450 hp or lower before getting that heal. Precision kills are, honestly, so rare that the additional hp from Mental Fortitude isn't going to have saved you. Most of the time, tank deaths are due to spike damage with way more overkill than would have been provided by Mental Fortitude. As such, not that useful.

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The issue with this is that the 3% increased hp from Mental Fortitude isn't going to be enough to keep you alive for a vast majority of those spike damage situations since, in order for Mental Fortitude to have actually kept you alive, you'd need to have been precision killed by the boss. Assuming you take 3 points in Mental Fortitude instead of the 1 point that the "standard" Kinetic build espouses, at 25k hp (2250 Endurance), for the additional hit points from Mental Fortitude to have saved you, you need to have been reduced to 450 hp or lower before getting that heal. Precision kills are, honestly, so rare that the additional hp from Mental Fortitude isn't going to have saved you. Most of the time, tank deaths are due to spike damage with way more overkill than would have been provided by Mental Fortitude. As such, not that useful.

 

Along that line of logic, Rapid Recovery is only useful for those times when you were going to die and the healer couldn't keep up with the healing. Most of the time, your health will spike down, but the healer will get it back up past full. Having some health healed by rapid recovery during the time when you go from full health to dead will save you less than Mental Fortitude.

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Along that line of logic, Rapid Recovery is only useful for those times when you were going to die and the healer couldn't keep up with the healing.

 

No. Additional hit points are only useful when you get pushed down into them. Healing is useful whenever you aren't at max hp. Even if it doesn't explicitly save you by getting you above that death threshold, you're still saving your healing resources by healing yourself by small amounts over the course of the fight. The additional hit points are only useful beyond an increased self healing benefit when you're actually pushed down into them and, even then, with small amounts, only when you're pushed into the small amount that they actually provide.

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  • 1 month later...
I talked with my healer, and apparently the more HP i get the longer he gets to heal the rest of the group or DPS. He basically ignores me until i'm at 12khp so i'm increasing raid dps and raid healing by stacking hp in this particular scenario. I know it's a weird way of doing things, but i think the self healing would actually increase this "alone" time where i basically tank without a healer. I may actually switch the points to the increased chance to proc combat technique. However having less hp is going to make me sad.
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Here's the correct math, taken directly from Sithwarrior.com

 

Some ppl is really bored at sithwarrior...

 

...R is not constant. When you drop the analysis on averages (basically implies that the person is more or less randomly pressing keys on his shadow) and focus on doing an analysis on drifts, to take advantage of the predictibility on CT ICD, and then proceed to evaluate how to maximize its procs through Saber Strike strategic placements, you will realize were RR power resides.

 

Besides I don't really get the point of the discussion even... Because it's a simple matter on if you focus on PvE or PvP...

 

...Where are you going to spend the points?

 

PvE: You are basically trading mitigation for threat generation. Nothing to analyze, as there is no equivalence in performance, you just choose to focus on one aspect of your tank role (Smaller than some ppl think as RR & MF also boosts self-healing threat, which is inherently AOE and not affected by target mitigation).

 

PvP: You need to kill things, PLUS, your targets can be affected by Nerve so there is more reassons to "go offensive", plus your attack/tanking windows are shorter. Meaning that CD performance swallows efficiency performance. Also you rarely have an impact on your healers' efficiency over time.

 

 

I talked with my healer, and apparently the more HP i get the longer he gets to heal the rest of the group or DPS. He basically ignores me until i'm at 12khp so i'm increasing raid dps and raid healing by stacking hp in this particular scenario. I know it's a weird way of doing things, but i think the self healing would actually increase this "alone" time where i basically tank without a healer.

 

You can focus the whole issue on PvE over long fights as a healer based on HoTs would do... A maximized HPS shadow is helping their healers to close the HoT gap to the DPS received, meaning longer windows to do other things. It's too long to explain, but if you get your hands on a good Scoundrel healer, ask him the differences between healing a Shadow Tank and other 2 over different encounters.

Edited by ragamer
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