Tanks in PvP - guard stacking with taunt and other -% damage

[Faat]

What it sounds like to most of us here is you want to be able to walk up to any cordinated pair be it a tank/healer combo or tank/whatever combo and walk right thru them?

 

That is what many of us are hearing...Lets see as a Vanguard I taunt you to reduce the damage your doing to my teammate you have already damaged the team mate and me both you get taunted guess what attack the tank that is what the taunt is for.

 

I do not know how it is for the Force Tanks or the Bounty Hunters but as a Republic Vanguard I have to run Ion Cell...to be able to use Guard So thus unless I specced into it my damage is not that great...I run an Assualt spec it is geared towards the plasma cell guess what if I run that I can not guard and loose alot of survivability.

 

 

Bottom line is 1 person should NEVER NEVER win a 2v1 fight the numbers game just is not in your favor.

 

I play a tank, I couldn't care less about killing 2 persons alone. I just think I provide my team too much mitigation. I played WAR for years and know that tanks are as important as healers to a balanced team, in this game it's even more efficient.

 

Just wanted to inform the community and start a discussion over this instead of always asking for a sorc nerf. Nerf guard + taunts stacking and unkillable sorc problem is gone.

[cpdm]

Guard and taunt doesnt stack the way you seem to think. First, your damage is reduced by 30% from taunt and then 50% of your now reduced damage is transferred by guard, giving a net effect of 1 - 0.7*0.5 = 0.65. Stacked they reduce damage by 65%, not 85%.

 

OP doesn't pay attention to math posted by others.

 

So to clarify...

 

65% reduced damage to Guarded target, 40% uptime

50% reduced damage to Guarded target, 60% uptime

 

An average of 56% reduced damage to Guarded target

 

The Oil Slick debuff of -20% Accuracy has a 30% uptime and only affects ranged and melee attacks, which are usually an ACs weaker attacks anyway.

 

Stop whining that it's 75%-90%

Edited February 10, 2012 by cpdm

[dagrouch]

Wow more QQ on a sound strategy that EVERYONE can do.

 

Why don't we just remove armor, weapons, levels, skills, and fight with fists?

 

Actually, someone's fist could be stronger. Let's just have it so when we log on, everyone automatically gets credit and wins.

[Crassius]

how is it insane ? I calculated close to 90% or 75% depending on wich way they add up those values. My maths are insane ?

 

I get it you like it the way it is, but in WAR, they weren't stacking, and tanks were still an important part of a team. Kind of the most important part. Capped at 50% with a 10sec 75% once in a while in long fights.

 

PvP Tanks in WAR were A HELL OF A LOT more survivable than in SWTOR. Apples and Oranges.

[KiranK]

I think this deserves a good discussion on whether it's considered OP and the source of the problem with Sorc / Sage non-squishyness, or if the community thinks it's alright and we should focus tanks first from now on.

 

Tanks guarding their friendly sorc / sage and applying taunt on important ennemy DPSers are actually mitigating 55% (guard) + 30% (taunt) + other debuffs depending on tank class + spec.

 

85% 6 secs out of 15secs (40% of the time), 55% (60% of the time), is that too much ? I think so. Makes robe wearing character tankier than an unguarded tank. Add to that other debuffs, such as, on my vanguard, -4% damage debuff (ion pulse), -20% accuracy debuff for 18 secs on a 60 sec cooldown, and all the CC both a Sage / Sorc + tank can pull of together.

 

If it's multiplicative, it would be something close to 70-75%. Still too much. They should cap tanking mitigation to 50%, imo. You wouldn't see unkillable lightning spammers anymore.

 

Thoughts ?

 

Given that tanks themselves have no additional survivability over the people they guard, save their 3 minute CDs, sounds like the one who's doing it wrong is you. CC the healer, burst down the tank. That's the way it has to be. If you can't deal with that then go play another game where tanks are useless again. Tanks have a role in PvP in this game and we like it that way.

[savionen]

1. How about, kill the tank instead of a healer. A healer with guard on is a real tank. A tank guarding a healer has poor survivability.

 

2. Guard has nothing to do with making sorcerers/sages OP.

[Grubfist]

The damage reduction only applies if you aren't attacking the tank. Take the tank out first.

[mufutiz]

the problem is most pvp designers have a hard time balancing dps classes and healers.

 

adding tanks to the mix is just not going to end well.

 

the mythic pvp devs seem really determined though to repeat all the mistakes they made in the past so...

 

set sail for fail

[syntxerr]

Hmm, I'm not really sure what to think of certain opinions, in fact they make me sad. It is already more than enough that people say Healers are supposedly so super powerful in this game, which is just a bad joke and utterly ********. They might be halfway okay when left alone but that's it. Compared to most other games healing power in TOR is just a bad joke. The fact that the arguably best healing class Sage/Sorc can be forced to flee by one DPS knowing his job and interrupting, CCing constantly speaks for itself. I'd argue the situation is out of control, because on top of all that, you can't even outheal most incoming DPS at all.

 

Now... when we get tanks into the mix, it gets difficult. I believe that when a healer is constantly guarded and protected by the tank, i.e. he is actively additionally taunting and attacking, CCing any potential threat to the healer and the healer is protecting him in return this is a great team effort. If you see this happen in PUGs it is fantastic, because many peolpe just don't work that way. They'll throw guard on anyone in their area just for the points. So playing together throughout a match has to be rewarded and naturally such a combination can be hard to crack. And it should be.

 

Tanks and Healers are both support classes and their role is to protect their team. If those two put their skillset together and healing and mitigation merge, it should be a TEAM EFFEORT to crack them. You should have to put at least 4 DPS on this combination to stand a chance of taking them apart, yes, I'm really serious.

 

What do some people expect? Two random DPS start attacking and win? Seriously... make just everyone reroll DPS and zerg mindlessly in the middle somewhere.

[Faat]

OP doesn't pay attention to math posted by others.

 

So to clarify...

 

65% reduced damage to Guarded target, 40% uptime

50% reduced damage to Guarded target, 60% uptime

 

An average of 56% reduced damage to Guarded target

 

The Oil Slick debuff of -20% Accuracy has a 30% uptime and only affects ranged and melee attacks, which are usually an ACs weaker attacks anyway.

 

Stop whining that it's 75%-90%

 

 

Let me redo maths just for you.

 

I put guard on my ally, 5% less dmg inc for him, 50% residual damage redirected to the tank.

 

I then taunt the ennemy attacking my guarded friend. They deal 30% less damage. I also used Ion pulse on him, further reducing his damage by 4%

 

So, if the ennemy would hit for 1000, he's now hitting for 660. Then reduces 5% of this 660, wich is now 627. 627/2 = 313.5

 

So a tank doing his job will mitigate 69% damage with 40% uptime.

 

That is IF they are adding this way, which is multiplicative. We have no idea if they add up differently. Not even talking about other buffs and spec trees -% dmg abilities of other classes, or armor mitigation, or w/e. I'm telling you, if I guard another tank it can easily get close to 90%, if he's shield spec. All the other classes have 75% + damage reduction when you take their armor and / or class abilities into account.

 

LOL if you think I'm whining. I'm posting this just to show people how OP the guard and tank mechanic is. People are clueless to think a tank swapping guard around like a pro and mitigating 69% of the damage by himself on his allies isn't imbalancing the playing field. Keep in mind there are no heal debuffs, in WAR there was 50% in heal debuff and 50% outgoing heal debuffs stacking up to 75% less heal, so you were still able to take down a guarded target, given that there was also a 50% cap guard / detaunt / taunt mitigation.

 

So to break a 6400 bubble on a guarded Sage, you have to deal 20465 damage. But oh yeah, killing them is just a l2p issue. 20k damage just to break the bubble. L2P.

 

nerf sage / Sorc and keep the tanks like this, I'll be happy. I'm a tank. And I know I make THE difference out there, between a victory or a defeat. You, with your 'elite' DPS or heals, contribute, but good PvP tanking wins it not breaking a sweat, how hard is it really to put guard on someone and follow him, taunting ennemies, CC and assisting for kills ?

Edited February 10, 2012 by Faat

[Astarica]

Purely anecdotal story, but during one of the game I have where we were losing badly, I attacked an Op (healer) who was guarded by a Powertech. Op seems to be the hardest healer to shut down since they've the most instant cast heals. The fight started with all character at 100%, and I was definitely alone.

 

At the end I died, Ops is 100% and PT is at 50%. But, this is a 1 on 2. If I clone myself, the logical conclusion would be one of me died the same time as the PT died, so it'd just be 1 DPS versus 1 healer (unguarded) if the fight started out as a 2 on 2. The Ops was healing full time (on self), so he cannot have healed more to cover the PT that was taking quite a bit of damage from Guard.

 

Unless the guarded person is a Merc (they have much higher mitigation than other healers), you can kill the tank simply by focusing on the healer first. The healer will be forced to either heal himself or heal the tank, and either way someone dies.

 

Taunt is totally irrelevent to Guard, because there is no reason to not use Taunt. Even if you never plan on guarding anyone, Taunt is free so if you see someone beating another guy, you'd still use it. The fact the healer was guarded doesn't make it any more or less attractive to use Taunt, since Taunt should always be used.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Astarica

[Auhfel]

So... CC the sorc and kill the tank instead?

 

Most classes use tech or force attacks so they can't block anyway.

 

Some classes also got lots of elemental or internal damage - or armor reduction abilities - to bypass the heavy armor as well. Operatives are perfectly viable as tank killers.

 

The tank has handy skills for things like this.. They want to be attacked. You only make it easier.

 

Juggernaut, for example. If he pops saber ward and/or invincible, he is not dying for the whol duration of your cc on the sorc. Not to mention, he probably has just as much hard CC as you and your buddy combined.

[Astarica]

The tank has handy skills for things like this.. They want to be attacked. You only make it easier.

 

Juggernaut, for example. If he pops saber ward and/or invincible, he is not dying for the whol duration of your cc on the sorc. Not to mention, he probably has just as much hard CC as you and your buddy combined.

 

Attack the tank is pretty much the dumbest thing to do. You'll do more damage to the tank by simply attacking whoever he's guarding just because whoever he's guarding has much weaker mitigation (unless it's a merc healer, that's one of the most impossible to kill combos out there), and I think no defensive cooldown work on damage shared by guard. E.g. you pop Invinicible but if your buddy needs to borrow 500 HP, you still lose 500 HP.

 

The solution to deal with guard is keep attacking the healer, interrupt his heals (especially AE heals) and he'll have to pick on a person to heal (himself or the tank), and then kill the guy he didn't heal.

[sithgrizley]

Ok first off, you are arguing that Sorc + any tank is OP. And from that you take away not that the Sorc is too strong but ALL tanks are.

 

It's mindboggling really.

 

Without a combat log it's hard to tell if the 5% damage reduction from guard works in PvP or replaced by the damage share. Just eyeballing it I would guess that it is just the share mechanic. One good way to test this is using a Merc with Tracer Missle, the damage has very little variation on a single target, something along the lines of 100 damage or less on a 3k crit.

 

Now, you think that tanks are too good at mitigating damage, you have used wacky math to "prove" your point. But lets take a look at what really happens.

 

50% damage redirection from guard.

 

30% from Taunt if they taunt you and you continue hitting the healer (ps. this makes you a baddie).

 

As an assassin you can throw a 5% accuracy debuff on a target and if you're full tank specced a 5% damage reduction debuff.

 

So they will be doing 5% less damage, possibly missing 5% more if they're not overcapped on hit and using a white attack. Tech/Force attacks are 100% accurate by default and any accuracy that you get to push white damage up will negate the hit penalty to Tech/Force attacks so the accuracy debuff is often ignored. At least at 5%.

 

That means if you do 10,000 points of damage to the healer...

 

You did 9,500 damage.

 

Tank took 4750, Sorc took 4750.

 

If they taunt you then the average damage damage reduction is 12%, the taunt is for 6/15 seconds (.4) and reduces by (.3). So uptime x reduction is .12.

 

In that case you've done 8360 damage.

 

4180 to the tank, 4180 to the Sorc.

 

that means 41.8% of the damage ended up on the Sorc, assuming that you're a baddie and attack through taunt. The total damage actually mitigated is 5% from a debuff and 12% if you're a baddie who ignores taunt.

 

That's hardly unreasonable.

 

If anything tanks need a little love in pvp durability wise. Defense only works against white damage, Tech and Force attacks can't be parried or dodged. Shield and Absorb only work against white damage, again Tech and Force attacks ignore shields. Armor only works against kinetic and energy, this is the most effective of the pvp tanks defenses but it is still ignored by a good many attacks due to type and many classes either reduce effective armor (Merc is a monster for this -20% debuff, ignore 60%, attacks that ignore even more than that on top of that. Means a tank has less than 50% armor against the ones he even gets armor for).

 

Now, again without a combat log it's difficult to be sure but it seems like any damage you do to their guard target is shared REGUARDLESS OF THE TANKS DEFENSES. So the tank may have 40% damage reduction if you're unfortunate enough to be one of the few who can't bypass it. The Sorc might have 20%. If you hit the Sorc you're doing 33% MORE damage to the tank than you would normally be doing. In theory, the Sorc heals and makes up the difference to the tank.

 

So if we throw in mitigation...

 

Attacking purely the tank with 10,0000 damage you will do...

 

~5700 damage. Less a little for white attacks he defends/shields, a little more for armor piercing attacks. The ratio for that depends on what dps class you're talking about. Marauders get pooped on by tanks, Mercs melt them.

 

Not bad.

 

If you attack an unguarded Sorc who is getting taunt and their target have the tank debuffs on them then for 10,000 damage out you will do...

 

~7600 damage. Less a bit for their base 10% avoidance on white damage, a little more by ignoring their armor.

 

That looks like a pretty big number...

 

Now if we look at what happens if the tank guards, and assume the damage isn't against reduced by his armor.

 

You do 3800 damage to the Sorc, and 3800 damage to the tank. You do 1900 damage less than you would just attacking the tank and get a bonus 3800 damage on the Sorc. You actually do more damage than you would by hitting the tank first, but by splitting the damage it gives the Sorc time to respond and heal.

 

Essentially, for tanking to work in PvP you have to make it a good idea to hit the tank at some point or they're just ignored and die last while they swing wet noodles at you. Guard does that, but not completely without disadvantage.

 

Oh, one more case. Lets say you do 10,000 ae damage. Taunt doesn't reduce your damage at all in this case so you do 9,500 to each target, then the tank also takes 50% of that 9500 the Sorc took. So the tank takes 14,250 and the Sorc takes 4750. The tank is damn near dead at that point.

[Dracyula]

Attack the tank is pretty much the dumbest thing to do. You'll do more damage to the tank by simply attacking whoever he's guarding just because whoever he's guarding has much weaker mitigation (unless it's a merc healer, that's one of the most impossible to kill combos out there), and I think no defensive cooldown work on damage shared by guard. E.g. you pop Invinicible but if your buddy needs to borrow 500 HP, you still lose 500 HP.

 

The solution to deal with guard is keep attacking the healer, interrupt his heals (especially AE heals) and he'll have to pick on a person to heal (himself or the tank), and then kill the guy he didn't heal.

 

I will give you the point that attacking a guarded target bypasses tank mitigation, but for the most part, you are wrong.

 

1. Tanks only have slightly better mitigation than another class.

 

2. When you are taunted you do 30% less damage to the healer, which means the healer has much better mitigation than the tank.

 

I am not necessarily saying your strategy is wrong, but the points that you make for using that strategy is flawed.

 

D

[Geglad]

Tanking in pvp is one of the things i LOVED in warhammer. WoW sucked at this field big time. Please dont try to propagate Blizzard aproach for tanks in pvp, cause they basically dont allow tanks being usable in pvp and abilities like taunt were useless there.

 

Hmmm...

 

Prot + Disc + FrostMage===>wsg/eots/ab/etc=WIN

 

sans FrostMage can still win for flag carrying/holding.

 

Separation doesnt even work there - its the old thingy type dealio, tank + heals = group. With the damage that prots are putting out now, it may be even more fun.

 

 

YMMV.

 

 

-Lad

[Astarica]

I will give you the point that attacking a guarded target bypasses tank mitigation, but for the most part, you are wrong.

 

1. Tanks only have slightly better mitigation than another class.

 

2. When you are taunted you do 30% less damage to the healer, which means the healer has much better mitigation than the tank.

 

I am not necessarily saying your strategy is wrong, but the points that you make for using that strategy is flawed.

 

D

 

Unless you're talking about a merc, any tank class has much better mitigation than the other two healers. Are you suggesting if players behaved like mobs and instantly attacked tanks for the next 6 seconds whenever they're taunted that'd actually be better?

 

Attacking healer isn't just about pure damage either. If you hit the healer, it pushbacks his heals. You can't interrupt a healer's heal without having him targetted, and if you have him targetted you probably should attack him anyway. I guess in theory you could just tab target him the moment he heals while you're taunted, but that's pretty much theorycraft and doesn't happen in reality. Single target taunt is only up 40% of the time, for a total of 12% damage reduction, and it can only be used on one person (you should have at least 2 people versus a guarded pair).

[Grubfist]

Unless you're talking about a merc, any tank class has much better mitigation than the other two healers. Are you suggesting if players behaved like mobs and instantly attacked tanks for the next 6 seconds whenever they're taunted that'd actually be better?

 

Attacking healer isn't just about pure damage either. If you hit the healer, it pushbacks his heals. You can't interrupt a healer's heal without having him targetted, and if you have him targetted you probably should attack him anyway. I guess in theory you could just tab target him the moment he heals while you're taunted, but that's pretty much theorycraft and doesn't happen in reality. Single target taunt is only up 40% of the time, for a total of 12% damage reduction, and it can only be used on one person (you should have at least 2 people versus a guarded pair).

 

He has 70% reduced pushback on his heals if he's a healer.

 

Going for the tank makes it easier in most situations.

 

Tanks do not have extraordinary mitigation, and they can't do much against tech/force attacks without a long cooldown.

[cpdm]

Let me redo maths just for you.

 

I put guard on my ally, 5% less dmg inc for him, 50% residual damage redirected to the tank.

 

I then taunt the ennemy attacking my guarded friend. They deal 30% less damage. I also used Ion pulse on him, further reducing his damage by 4%

 

So, if the ennemy would hit for 1000, he's now hitting for 660. Then reduces 5% of this 660, wich is now 627. 627/2 = 313.5

 

So a tank doing his job will mitigate 69% damage with 40% uptime.

 

That is IF they are adding this way, which is multiplicative. We have no idea if they add up differently. Not even talking about other buffs and spec trees -% dmg abilities of other classes, or armor mitigation, or w/e. I'm telling you, if I guard another tank it can easily get close to 90%, if he's shield spec. All the other classes have 75% + damage reduction when you take their armor and / or class abilities into account.

 

LOL if you think I'm whining. I'm posting this just to show people how OP the guard and tank mechanic is. People are clueless to think a tank swapping guard around like a pro and mitigating 69% of the damage by himself on his allies isn't imbalancing the playing field. Keep in mind there are no heal debuffs, in WAR there was 50% in heal debuff and 50% outgoing heal debuffs stacking up to 75% less heal, so you were still able to take down a guarded target, given that there was also a 50% cap guard / detaunt / taunt mitigation.

 

So to break a 6400 bubble on a guarded Sage, you have to deal 20465 damage. But oh yeah, killing them is just a l2p issue. 20k damage just to break the bubble. L2P.

 

nerf sage / Sorc and keep the tanks like this, I'll be happy. I'm a tank. And I know I make THE difference out there, between a victory or a defeat. You, with your 'elite' DPS or heals, contribute, but good PvP tanking wins it not breaking a sweat, how hard is it really to put guard on someone and follow him, taunting ennemies, CC and assisting for kills ?

 

Now that I am able to log into the game, I see that Guard does indeed give the target 5% reduced incoming damage. Serves me right for trusting Torhead's DB. However, there is no -4% damage done associated with IGC! Perhaps you are referring to the skill Combust in the Shield Tech tree that put a -4% damage modifier on a victim of your Flame Burst or Flame Sweep.

 

Since 50% redirected damage is a different mechanic than mitigation, I will assume that it is multiplicative. So let ME re-redo the "maths" just for YOU.

 

With the -4% damage debuff on the attacker:

-39% damage taken 40% of the 15 seconds it takes for Neural Dart to come off CD

-9% damage taken the other 60% of that 15 seconds

 

15 seconds = 10 GCD, let's assume 1000 damage dealt/GCD for ease of "maths" (perhaps you're British?)

 

First 4 GCD attacks = 610 each = 2440 damage done

Last 6 GCD attacks = 910 each = 5460 damage done

Total: 7900 damage done out of 10000 possible = 79% damage taken, or 21% damage reduced

 

with 50% redirect from Guard factored in

 

First 4 GCD attacks = 305 each = 1220 damage done

Last 6 GCD attacks = 455 each = 2730 damage done

Total: 3950 damage done out of 10000 possible = 39.5% damage taken or 60.5% damage reduced

 

60.5% damage reduced every 15 seconds from ONE attacker. Per your example of breaking through the 6400 hit point bubble of a Guarded Sage/Sorc:

 

6400 / 0.395 = 16203 damage needed to burst that bubble or 20% less than you are claiming.

 

Now, I see no reason to believe that the damage reduction and the damage redirection could possibly be additive as they are separate mechanics. However, that is something that I agree should be tested.

 

Also to be considered is the fact that that amount of reduction is ONLY applicable to one attacker. Sonic Missile (the PT AoE taunt) is 6 out of every 45 seconds, giving it a paltry uptime of 13.33%. As long as the ST & AoE taunts do not stacks (which I am simply too tired to test tonight), every attacker after the first would decrease the percentage of damage avoided by the Guarded target after the 15 second mark.

 

Not even talking about other buffs and spec trees -% dmg abilities of other classes, or armor mitigation, or w/e. I'm telling you, if I guard another tank it can easily get close to 90%, if he's shield spec. All the other classes have 75% + damage reduction when you take their armor and / or class abilities into account.

 

This is so ambiguous, vague, and indefinite that I have to wonder if you are deliberately trolling your own topic. Besides, if all other classes have these defensive abilities, then doesn't that, by definition, make it balanced?

 

Hey, it's cool. You started of at 70-75%, went to 75-90%, now you're back down to 69%... maybe after a few more back-and-forth posts, you'll be in the realm of reality.

[Elysion]

I agree, tanks shouldn't be able to guard other players

 

Further, healers should not be able to heal other players and dps should not be able to damage other players.

[denpic]

I run a guardian and I can tell you that if I guard someone

And aoe taunt without some form of healing

I die fast the damage is transferred to the tank

It's only mitigated if I pop my def c/d's

At the same time

[Faat]

Now that I am able to log into the game, I see that Guard does indeed give the target 5% reduced incoming damage. Serves me right for trusting Torhead's DB. However, there is no -4% damage done associated with IGC! Perhaps you are referring to the skill Combust in the Shield Tech tree that put a -4% damage modifier on a victim of your Flame Burst or Flame Sweep.

 

Since 50% redirected damage is a different mechanic than mitigation, I will assume that it is multiplicative. So let ME re-redo the "maths" just for YOU.

 

With the -4% damage debuff on the attacker:

-39% damage taken 40% of the 15 seconds it takes for Neural Dart to come off CD

-9% damage taken the other 60% of that 15 seconds

 

15 seconds = 10 GCD, let's assume 1000 damage dealt/GCD for ease of "maths" (perhaps you're British?)

 

First 4 GCD attacks = 610 each = 2440 damage done

Last 6 GCD attacks = 910 each = 5460 damage done

Total: 7900 damage done out of 10000 possible = 79% damage taken, or 21% damage reduced

 

with 50% redirect from Guard factored in

 

First 4 GCD attacks = 305 each = 1220 damage done

Last 6 GCD attacks = 455 each = 2730 damage done

Total: 3950 damage done out of 10000 possible = 39.5% damage taken or 60.5% damage reduced

 

60.5% damage reduced every 15 seconds from ONE attacker. Per your example of breaking through the 6400 hit point bubble of a Guarded Sage/Sorc:

 

6400 / 0.395 = 16203 damage needed to burst that bubble or 20% less than you are claiming.

 

Now, I see no reason to believe that the damage reduction and the damage redirection could possibly be additive as they are separate mechanics. However, that is something that I agree should be tested.

 

Also to be considered is the fact that that amount of reduction is ONLY applicable to one attacker. Sonic Missile (the PT AoE taunt) is 6 out of every 45 seconds, giving it a paltry uptime of 13.33%. As long as the ST & AoE taunts do not stacks (which I am simply too tired to test tonight), every attacker after the first would decrease the percentage of damage avoided by the Guarded target after the 15 second mark.

 

 

 

This is so ambiguous, vague, and indefinite that I have to wonder if you are deliberately trolling your own topic. Besides, if all other classes have these defensive abilities, then doesn't that, by definition, make it balanced?

 

Hey, it's cool. You started of at 70-75%, went to 75-90%, now you're back down to 69%... maybe after a few more back-and-forth posts, you'll be in the realm of reality.

 

-4% damage debuff with ion pulse is a 2 pts talent at the bottom of the shield tree for vangaurds / powertechs.

 

I started at 70-75%, then stated 90% because I had no hard maths to fall on, but experienced being actually hit for XXX by players that hit me for XXXX when I fight them solo. When you add up that 69% with the initial mitigation of your guarded ally (light, medium or heavy armor, damage reduction talents specced points), it adds up to between 75% - 90% (for tanks wearing a shield grants additionnal 5% less damage, a talent can add up 3%, heavy armor 45% if I can remember). I don't have all the numbers as I'm at my job right now, but if another vanguard tank guards my vanguard, I can tell you I will mitigate A LOT (close to 90% vs some ungeared foes) of the damage that's not bypassing my armor. Granted not all sources of damage are affected.

 

So, here are the maths : 69% mitigation (guard + taunt + 4% debuff talent).

Then 45% from heavy armor, 5% from using ion cell, 3% from a talent up the shield tree.

So, 53% of that 31% gets mitigated, on top of the 69%. That's an additionnal 16.43% on top of the 69%.

So in the end, I mitigate 85.43% of the initial damage.

Then comes expertise. -10% damage from ungeared 50s (10% is from not having top notch expertise gear btw).

From these players, I get hit with 88.53% damage reduction. If I'm full BM vs ungeared 50s, it's 90% +.

 

Some sources of damage bypass that mitigation and it's not 100% uptime, granted, but the fact remains that, taking into account armor mitigation + talents + guard + taunt + talents, tanks are very valuable, and possibly, OP. That's what I want to discuss here. in the end, in WAR, many players frustrations came with the 'unkillable warrior priests' and 'melee bomb bright wizards premades' that resulted with the use of such tank mechanic. WAR lost 90% of it's player base in the first year due to poorly thought mechanic(s) like that, with many other issues.

 

That's innovative, that really makes tank valuable in a competitive mindset, but that can drive the casual player base off as they don't have the luxury to have a pocket guard available to them when they log, and as they hit their heads on a brickwall trying to kill a guarded sage / sorc, they'll scream SORC OP as they ragelog / cancel sub or reroll, or post non-sense (sorc being too survivable, not squishy enough), when the problem is the tank mechanic, not the sorc.

 

Let's talk about counters. Locking a healer out of healing isn't hard (interrupt on short cooldown on tank classes, long cast times for healers), but it's way harder to separate a character from his tank, close to impossible if you're not coordinated with your teammates (premade on vent). Not mentionning if the character is healed, there's no way youre taking down a guarded player (no heal debuffs, so find and kill the healer, but ohh wait, he is guarded, and you'll have to focus through guard + taunt + absords, etc). That's why I'm thinking it's a bit over the top. Kill the tank is usually the better option, but try to kill a guarded tank.

 

Tank mechanic brings too much benefit for the actual 'skill' involved into properly playing a PvP tank. It's a bit like playing a healer, but you don't have to spamSPAMspam the same hotkeys advitam eternam. Just look at healthbars / positionning on the field / guarding the ally that's in trouble / taunting the ennemies that are engaged in a fight / CC when appropriate / DPSing at same time. Not that hard to pull off, not as boring as playing 'and I heal and I heal' whackamole, and totally game changer. I don't want it to change too much, I want counters. As it is, put guard on someone, and stay within 15 meters, = skilled tank. Use taunt, swap guard around, use CC finish top3 DPS, = pro tank.

 

IMO they could keep the system as is, but give DPS classes a skill on a 30-45sec cooldown to strip guard from their target. Then tanks would have to be aware to reapply guard when it gets stripped, would require much more skill than it takes right now. And would give DPS a tool to deal with a guarded target, as there is nothing they can do right now (kill the tank first, yeah I know lol).

Edited February 13, 2012 by Faat

[Epochmox]

You say you play a tank here so you know yourself that in swtor we are a lot squishier in pvp than we are in pve. With force/tech skills being main sources of dmg our tankyness isnt anywhere near the level of a WAR tank. That in itself makes your comparison a little thin.

 

Your always going to get really tanky duos that can take a ton of damage but you often find they dont output that much damage or healing. In War the combos were overpowered because of wp/dok AoE healing which ment you could keep a whole group going with a guard/ae healer combo and it was hard to break the guard duo down. It wasnt guard but the fact heals reached every group member.

 

AoE healing is minor here compared to WAr even the good Ae heals have big cooldowns. I have played 2 swtor healers to 50 and now a tank and played a maxed out chosen, ib, 2 wps and a dok. The guarding mechanics dont create the same overpowered dynamic here as they were in war and i think you know it but are clinging to the comparison.

[Faat]

You say you play a tank here so you know yourself that in swtor we are a lot squishier in pvp than we are in pve. With force/tech skills being main sources of dmg our tankyness isnt anywhere near the level of a WAR tank. That in itself makes your comparison a little thin.

 

Your always going to get really tanky duos that can take a ton of damage but you often find they dont output that much damage or healing. In War the combos were overpowered because of wp/dok AoE healing which ment you could keep a whole group going with a guard/ae healer combo and it was hard to break the guard duo down. It wasnt guard but the fact heals reached every group member.

 

AoE healing is minor here compared to WAr even the good Ae heals have big cooldowns. I have played 2 swtor healers to 50 and now a tank and played a maxed out chosen, ib, 2 wps and a dok. The guarding mechanics dont create the same overpowered dynamic here as they were in war and i think you know it but are clinging to the comparison.

 

Actually I didn't think about the healing aspect of the game, but the example I had in mind when i wrote the OP was when I gaurded a DPS sage in a PuG WZ, who'd only cast the bubble on him as he didn't take any damage whatsoever, and we'd be steamrolling any opposition without heals, other than the out of combat regen skill. Matter of fact, I died more than that sage, as he wouldn't even bother healing me whatsoever, like a real baddie (think about it half a second, he was a real baddie, standing still casting nukes, absorbing all damage like it takes skill). At least, he /whispered me a 'thanks for gaurding me'. Without me, he would'vs died all over the place. Instead, we won. I know, PuG vs PuG has hardly any balance and that magnifies the impact of players playing their roles in the team (WZs without heals or tanks, vs with, is day and night difference)

 

So your point is, healers in SWTOR can't heal a group efficiently if it's taking heavy AoE damage, and therefore, that makes the tank guard mechanic not too strong to warrant tweaking. Valid point I'd say. As for tank squishyness, defensive awareness and what to do when in trouble makes it of breaks it. On my vanguard I can leap + speed boost every 15 secs, to get out of LoS. I can pop my cooldowns and be a lot harder to kill for 12 secs. I can use defensive adrenals / trinkets / relics / stimpack / med pack. Sure I'm not that tougher, but you'd have to be persistent to keep trying to kill me as I leap / speed boost away. Usually, people stop to try to kill me, I get healed, 5 - 10secs later I'm back at full health guarding someone and taunting. Thing is, as soon as I see people attacking me, I release guard to try to stay alive, to not take additionnal damage, and to become guardable by other tanks. Being ranged tank I also try to not get too close to the frontline, I'll usually pull - root / stun a target from 30 meters range, save my leap - speed boost to save my ***.

 

Thanks for your input.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Faat

[inseeisyou]

I play a tank and I can tell you it is not so easy to seperate me from the player I am attempting to guard if they are also trying to stay close to me.

 

You can pull, push, or knock back one or both, use some CC and root (all the while granting resolve) but it is going to be a lot of work and abilities for a few seconds of separation at most. (And yes, we have knock backs and CCs to use when separated also)

 

The 15m guard range is really only an issue for players that aren't aware of it.

 

The best plan is to beat on the tank and interrupt the healer.