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3 problems with end game PVE that need to be looked at to increase Replay Value


Samborino

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Taking any of these suggestions would make it so that people arent getting geared out in a 2-3 weeks and suddenly left with nothing to do. I personally got full columi in my first week of hitting 50, something is wrong with that. Something also is wrong when an average guild can clear Eternity Vault within a few hours on the first night they have ever done it, with minimal wipes

 

1. Duplicate Gear

 

Using the same gear for drops in every end game PVE mode. Energized, Xenotech, Exotech and The tier pieces. Thats all we have for drops in the end game. The same gear that drops in HM FP's is dropped in 8 and 16 man ops, and columi and some of the non tier sets are also dropped in hard mode 8 and 16 mans. Its just duplicated gear in every single end game PVE Mode, and im not talking about its gear that looks different with the same stats or gear that looks the same with different stats, its the exact same gear. Look at a end game raid for any popular recent mmo, i bet the loot table ( the gear that is in the dungeon/raid) is bigger than the entire end game PVE drops for SWTOR.

 

2. Ops bosses drop too much gear

 

The amount of gear that drops in 8 and 16 man modes is far far to much. 4 pieces drop per boss in an 8 man operation, that gears your raid out way to quickly and suddenly you are left with nothing to do. Most people wont complain about this because they like getting gear, but it is a problem and it makes good gear feel less special or rare (if that was even possible considering every piece of gear is part of a set and it is duplicated in every end game pve game mode). As a comparison just to put it in perspective. In wow 10 man raids dropped 2 pieces of gear per boss. I never ever felt like it was too little gear dropping per boss nor had I ever heard anyone complain about it. Having a raid boss drop a reasonable but smaller amount of gear combined with the suggestion above would increase SWTOR's end game PVE replayability 10 fold.

 

3. Difficulty

 

Here is how I always thought Raids (operations) where supposed to work. So you hit max level and you begin acquiring as much gear as you can from pre raid content whatever that may be. Once your group is geared enough you start the first raid available in the game, with the current gear you have you may beable to clear the first couple of bosses. This is the goal though to get the first boss or 2 on clear so that your raid can start gearing up enough to take down the other bosses. After a few weeks of clearing the first bosses in the the 1 or 2 modes the raid has (like 8 and 16 man or 10 and 25 man) you will beable to progress further and you rince and repeat with the next few bosses. This style of raiding is what I am personally used to and while it may not have as much instant gratification as clearing the whole raid in one night, the feeling of clearing a boss that you couldnt do a week or 2 before is far more satisfying.

 

More strict and rigorous gear checks need to be put in place for Ops, adding these gear checks will also increase the skill level needed to complete these bosses. Its not acceptable for guilds to be 1 shotting bosses in a operation on their first night there , that should virtually never happen for an average guild if no one has done the boss before and it is still new content. Difficulty needs to be ramped up, also right now its pretty pointless to run a 16 man when you can run to 8 man groups, there is pretty much zero incentive to run a 16 man at least gear wise as it drops the exact same loot as the 8 man just more of it.

 

Taking into consideration any of these 3 points would increase the replayability of the end game, i would love to still be enjoying running normal mode Eternity Vault and Karraga's palace, i find it ridiculous that i dont need gear from either of these 2 raids anymore after 2 weeks of raiding them and doing hard mode flashpoints. I really hope the next raids will have their own loot tables as well as start to ramp up on the difficulties. I know this stuff could take time , i just cant see the game having staying power for many end game PVE'ers if they continue with this trend of Duplicating the same gear any new FP's and raids (aka the FP;s will drop the same loot as the raids, and the 8 and 16 man ops will also drop the exact same gear which is how they have it set up at the moment.

 

Thanks for listening!

Edited by Samborino
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I really think this is an important issue especially the parts about loot, alot of people play mmo's for that sense of character progression. And when the Ops are too easy and they have so many duplicate drops that you can also get from doing hard modes as well as 8 and 16 man drops it acclerates the problem really quickly.

 

The 3 problems i mentioned all together make for a huge *****torm. If it was only 2 of the problems i mentioned it wouldnt be such a big issue but all 3 together makes end game PVE character progression way too fast.

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sounds like more wow. Not every mmo out there is like that. wish this game was more original like some of the other mmo's out there.

 

I just dont see how anyone could think that more loot is a bad thing. Or that HM FPS and 8 and 16 man ops should all drop the exact same loot. You think its a good thing that BW seems to have been to rushed on release to actually give their operations proper loot tables?

 

Especially considering how much loot there was during the leveling process and with crew skills, you think that they would continue this trend into end game PVE.

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I just want to cover the part about difficulty here.

The ops here have 3 difficulty levels. If your finding normal or hardmode to easy then try nightmare mode.

So my question to you is have you cleared 10/10 nightmare mode? If not then you have no place to complain about the ops being to easy! Now if you have 10/10 nightmare on farm status you may have a right to complain about how easy the mode is.

 

My guild here runs 2 8 man groups atm the group i am in has hardmode on farm with the exception of HM SoA and we are looking at starting nightmare mode. This group did normal mode one week and moved to hardmode the next because we found normal mode to easy for US. This group is made up of veteran mmo gamers.

The other group is having issues clearing normal modes.

Plainly they are not finding normal to easy for them. They are mainly made up of new to gaming type of players.

 

I hear this complain in wow also bah bah bah the raids are to easy. But when confronted they admit they have not done the hardmodes.

 

Difficulty is hard to pin point because its subjective One mans easy is another mans to hard.

This is why games have difficulty settings. So everyone has the option to complete the content at a difficulty level they are comfortable with.

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End game PvE in TOR is an oxymoron. There is post 50 PvE, but no reason to continue PvE once you have all the gear and ran all the missions, thus ending the game.

 

 

The drive to continue playing needs to be to have fun, not acquire gear and xp.

 

A RNG system or dynamic campaign between factions would be a start.

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I just want to cover the part about difficulty here.

The ops here have 3 difficulty levels. If your finding normal or hardmode to easy then try nightmare mode.

So my question to you is have you cleared 10/10 nightmare mode? If not then you have no place to complain about the ops being to easy! Now if you have 10/10 nightmare on farm status you may have a right to complain about how easy the mode is.

 

My guild here runs 2 8 man groups atm the group i am in has hardmode on farm with the exception of HM SoA and we are looking at starting nightmare mode. This group did normal mode one week and moved to hardmode the next because we found normal mode to easy for US. This group is made up of veteran mmo gamers.

The other group is having issues clearing normal modes.

Plainly they are not finding normal to easy for them. They are mainly made up of new to gaming type of players.

 

I hear this complain in wow also bah bah bah the raids are to easy. But when confronted they admit they have not done the hardmodes.

 

Difficulty is hard to pin point because its subjective One mans easy is another mans to hard.

This is why games have difficulty settings. So everyone has the option to complete the content at a difficulty level they are comfortable with.

 

Our guild is currently in the same positioin as yours almost cleared Soa on hard. Aside from a challenge there is no real reason character progression wise to run nightmare mode though. Im sure well start doing it once we have hard on farm but still. It doesnt seem your guild runs 16 mans either. You know why that is? Because its pretty much pointless because 16 mans drop the exact same loot as 8 mans.

 

Are you telling me you prefer it this way where there is only 1 viable set of loot at top tier end game ( rakata) so everyone at that point in the game looks the same (they already do anyways its not like columi and rakata look that much different). Wouldnt you prefer it if 16 mans dropped different unique loot to 8 mans.

 

And to the person saying you dont play this game for loot you play to have fun. Loot is fun for me, I think most people who play end game play it for a sense of character progression that is whats fun , wanting loot and having fun arent mutally exclusive come on now.

 

I really really like this game, i play hours a day and im not planning on quitting anytime soon i just HOPE that BW will step up its game in the loot department instead of giving the same loot tables to every aspect of the end game. Why should hard mode FP's drop the exact same loot as Normal Mode raids, shouldnt bioware give seperate reasons for players to run these. Content would run thin alot less quickly character progression wise if HM FP's had their own loot tables and their own seperate reasons to run them beyond getting columi gear. Also its fine that commendations are for tier loot and that tier loot drops in Operations and FP's as well but give us other loot to spend our commendations on or make only one of the tier 1 sets be available through commendations.

 

Im sorry to say this as I will never go back to WoW but its end game looting system was certainly alot more robust, hence the comparisons in my original post, even for vanilla wow it was.

 

Yea but in wow when people were complaining about the raids being too easy most average guilds werent clearing naxx in wotlk in their first save to the instance. In this game an average guild has no problem clearing NM 8 man Soa on the first night. Took us just over an our and a half our first try through EV. Regardless of whether there is hard and nightmare modes i dont think normal mode should be that little of a challenge for a group of people that have never been there before.

Edited by Samborino
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End game PvE in TOR is an oxymoron. There is post 50 PvE, but no reason to continue PvE once you have all the gear and ran all the missions, thus ending the game.

 

 

The drive to continue playing needs to be to have fun, not acquire gear and xp.

 

A RNG system or dynamic campaign between factions would be a start.

 

Too much gear drops from running end game pve is part of the problem and their are too many ways to go about getting the exact same gear. If each of these Modes ( 8 mans 16 mans , FP's) dropped their own gear the game wouldnt "end" so quickly.

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Taking any of these suggestions would make it so that people arent getting geared out in a 2-3 weeks and suddenly left with nothing to do. I personally got full columi in my first week of hitting 50, something is wrong with that. Something also is wrong when an average guild can clear Eternity Vault within a few hours on the first night they have ever done it, with minimal wipes

 

1. Duplicate Gear

 

Using the same gear for drops in every end game PVE mode. Energized, Xenotech, Exotech and The tier pieces. Thats all we have for drops in the end game. The same gear that drops in HM FP's is dropped in 8 and 16 man ops, and columi and some of the non tier sets are also dropped in hard mode 8 and 16 mans. Its just duplicated gear in every single end game PVE Mode, and im not talking about its gear that looks different with the same stats or gear that looks the same with different stats, its the exact same gear. Look at a end game raid for any popular recent mmo, i bet the loot table ( the gear that is in the dungeon/raid) is bigger than the entire end game PVE drops for SWTOR.

 

2. Ops bosses drop too much gear

 

The amount of gear that drops in 8 and 16 man modes is far far to much. 4 pieces drop per boss in an 8 man operation, that gears your raid out way to quickly and suddenly you are left with nothing to do. Most people wont complain about this because they like getting gear, but it is a problem and it makes good gear feel less special or rare (if that was even possible considering every piece of gear is part of a set and it is duplicated in every end game pve game mode). As a comparison just to put it in perspective. In wow 10 man raids dropped 2 pieces of gear per boss. I never ever felt like it was too little gear dropping per boss nor had I ever heard anyone complain about it. Having a raid boss drop a reasonable but smaller amount of gear combined with the suggestion above would increase SWTOR's end game PVE replayability 10 fold.

 

3. Difficulty

 

Here is how I always thought Raids (operations) where supposed to work. So you hit max level and you begin acquiring as much gear as you can from pre raid content whatever that may be. Once your group is geared enough you start the first raid available in the game, with the current gear you have you may beable to clear the first couple of bosses. This is the goal though to get the first boss or 2 on clear so that your raid can start gearing up enough to take down the other bosses. After a few weeks of clearing the first bosses in the the 1 or 2 modes the raid has (like 8 and 16 man or 10 and 25 man) you will beable to progress further and you rince and repeat with the next few bosses. This style of raiding is what I am personally used to and while it may not have as much instant gratification as clearing the whole raid in one night, the feeling of clearing a boss that you couldnt do a week or 2 before is far more satisfying.

 

More strict and rigorous gear checks need to be put in place for Ops, adding these gear checks will also increase the skill level needed to complete these bosses. Its not acceptable for guilds to be 1 shotting bosses in a operation on their first night there , that should virtually never happen for an average guild if no one has done the boss before and it is still new content. Difficulty needs to be ramped up, also right now its pretty pointless to run a 16 man when you can run to 8 man groups, there is pretty much zero incentive to run a 16 man at least gear wise as it drops the exact same loot as the 8 man just more of it.

 

Taking into consideration any of these 3 points would increase the replayability of the end game, i would love to still be enjoying running normal mode Eternity Vault and Karraga's palace, i find it ridiculous that i dont need gear from either of these 2 raids anymore after 2 weeks of raiding them and doing hard mode flashpoints. I really hope the next raids will have their own loot tables as well as start to ramp up on the difficulties. I know this stuff could take time , i just cant see the game having staying power for many end game PVE'ers if they continue with this trend of Duplicating the same gear any new FP's and raids (aka the FP;s will drop the same loot as the raids, and the 8 and 16 man ops will also drop the exact same gear which is how they have it set up at the moment.

 

Thanks for listening!

 

 

We are having the exact same problems and agree heavily. Having so much of the same loot (Columi being the most prevalent) drop in FPs and Ops is just silly. It leaves little to no reason to run HM FPs and the difficulty is so stupidly easy that you really don't need that much to accomplish the Ops. I like the raid designs/mechanics (aside from the most buggy crap ever in EV puzzle/Soa) but the difficulty is so lamely easy. My 2 raid groups are banking heavily on 1.2 as I know a ton of other raiders are.. we want end game.. the story aspect is fantastic but it's a temporary draw to a game like this.. we need content.

 

Good luck BW.. I truly hope this game stays afloat and becomes #1 because it's fantastic.

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