nschlan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 RTS and MMO are not the same pvp type games List your MMO pvp type games please and you will see what hes talking about Doesn't matter. He was talking about PvP as a whole. No one specified the MMO PvPers. SC2 and such are still PvP. Hell, CoD is PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nschlan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The word MIGHT fails to prove anything...its y i keep saying it.....im making fun of you And I'm making fun of the fact that you ignored the majority of what I had to say and zeroed in on 1 line that gave you hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasimus Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Those games are all WoW clones. People here are saying that when games come out that aren't WoW clones, there's a good chance the PvP community will shift to them. Not all were WoW clones, personally I wouldn't call GW or Rift a WoW clone. Of course all MMOs have some things in common that differentiate them from other genres like FPS. P.S. Hoping that someone in the MMO development community will totally depart from the paradigm established by the most successful subscription based (read that as most profitable) game in the history of MMOs is probably unrealistic until WoW really crashes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWImara Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) If you are going to generalize the PvP player base as "flaky" based on how they flock from game to game in MMOs (which is evident from the past), I am also going to generalize them as "dedicated" when they find a game that meets their needs. There isn't a good MMO nowadays that shows this, but look at other PvP-games like SC2, CS, WC3, etc. When a game comes along that offers fun and fulfilling PvP, the PvP-base will not be "flaky" anymore. Touched on this in a past post, I was generalizing about the "hardcore PvP" crowd, not about PvPers in general. That said comparing MMO PvP players to RTS or FPS players is not reasonable at all. They are different beasts entirely, of course some play multiple genres but my enjoying FPS has nothing to do with my enjoying MMO PvP. What was wrong with Darkfall or Mortal Online? What is wrong for that matter with WoW arenas (for those who demand esport play in MMOs). Games have attempted to serve this crowd for a long time. We go from one game to another trolling for some magical super-game that we're never going to find (or as in the previously mentioned Darkfall & MO we have no intention of playing anyway). I will relent that if there were some MMO that served all of the needs of the hardcore PvP crowd they'd have a good following for a while, but how long really? Years certainly seems doubtful. Those games are all WoW clones. People here are saying that when games come out that aren't WoW clones, there's a good chance the PvP community will shift to them. Also you talk about stuff like adding Rateds and more WZs, but that's not even the issue. The issue is the easiness of the PvP, the gear grind, the lack of attention given to PvP by devs, lack of ANY open world PvP and the RNG of getting gear. The thing is there have been games that have specifically catered to the PvP MMO playerbase. They were not however "mainstream" games with big names, but they are there and still populated, albeit by a small niche community. The learning curve in them is exceptionally high, it is very difficult to get into them unless you have a guild and some people to carry you through the newbie hunting grounds (aka high level noobfarmingzones). What does it mean to ambiguously not be a "WoW clone" MMOs (in my limited experience) all bring something new to the table, games are largely labeled WoW clones when they do not cater to some specific and often undefined need. As WoW continues to grow and snatch up neat concepts from new games I suppose the definition of a WoW clone will change too. To be clear I love PvPing, I don't bother to pick up games (aside from arguably LotRO) if they don't have an aspect of PvP to them, but I am not the age I was when I played and loved Shadowbane. I know I couldn't roll out of bed at 4am to defend against a bane and still make it to work the next day (2am is arguable ). I am just saying that the PvP genre has broadened a good bit and some of what people see as "WoWifying" is an effort to make the game accessible to a wider audience. One of the things people hate about Ilum is that its unregulated... that was one of the core components of a PvP game when I was first getting into the field. Edited February 9, 2012 by SWImara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigBee Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Doesn't matter. He was talking about PvP as a whole. No one specified the MMO PvPers. SC2 and such are still PvP. Hell, CoD is PvP. FPS...RTS...MMO are all different pvp types how you dont get that is beyond me the OP was talking about the MMO pvp community....since that is a very different type because of the diversity you get with MMO pvp....and he listed some of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nschlan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 P.S. Hoping that someone in the MMO development community will totally depart from the paradigm established by the most successful subscription based (read that as most profitable) game in the history of MMOs is probably unrealistic until WoW really crashes. Guild Wars 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nschlan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) FPS...RTS...MMO are all different pvp types how you dont get that is beyond me the OP was talking about the MMO pvp community....since that is a very different type because of the diversity you get with MMO pvp....and he listed some of that The guy you quoted and the guy he was replying to never specified MMO vs. Fps vs. RTS PvP, the person calling the PvP community as "flaky" and such simply said PvP community Edited February 9, 2012 by nschlan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasimus Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Guild Wars 2. I wish you the best of luck, but the same was said of GW so I wouldn't get my hopes up too high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golfwang Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 If a better game comes out that may happen. But look at the record of MMOs over the last 4 or 5 years. There were a number of them that at least some of the "PvP" community liked, where are they now? I've played WoW since release, and still do from time to time, but I have gotten weary of WoW. Of all the other MMOs I've tried since WoW, and I've tried quite a few, only SWTOR has been able to keep me playing past a few weeks. The OP makes some valid points, but many of them can be, and most likely will be, remedied as the game matures. Rated WZs will help as will some new, larger, WZs that require a bit more strategy. While a number of people have made 50 the percentages last I checked were still pretty low. Even "hard core" players take a while to get to 50 in this game if their play time is constrained to a couple of hours a day. (Note: I define "hard core" as someone who really enjoys MMOs and spends a significant amount of their free time playing. Not someone, who for whatever reason can spend 5,6 or more hours a day playing.) P.S.To solve the "Huttball" issue I switched my main to Republic and my Gunslinger just made 50 about a week ago. Well there are three AAA titles coming out with pvp potentially better than ToR's this year. That's a pretty significant challenge for a new MMO. "Those" MMOs tend to stick around for a bit in some small form or another. I imagine SWTOR will be a bit more successful but it's hard to tell where it'll fall at this point. I don't understand, if you've gotten so weary of WoW how have you not gotten weary of ToR at cap? Because it's pretty much a poorly done WoW clone at 50. I can't knock you for enjoying this game though, flawed pvp or not. It was definitely the best leveling experience I've ever had in a MMO. 1-49 was a revelation in questing. That's gone at cap. I don't see big points, like the lack of decent world pvp being addressed anytime soon. Content issues are easily addressable. It's the poor design issues that have many people worried and unsubbing. I tried make a republic character to solve getting Huttball non-stop too, but you have to research and pick a decent server for a decent Ilum experience. I mean, Ilum is still pretty bad, just less so if you can compete with decent numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nschlan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I wish you the best of luck, but the same was said of GW so I wouldn't get my hopes up too high GW2 is in no way like GW1. I dunno how much you know about it but the only similarities are in setting/lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptorchid Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 RTS and MMO are not the same pvp type games List your MMO pvp type games please and you will see what hes talking about They may not be the same type of games, but they garner the same mentalities. I don't just play MMO's you know. I play RTS, FPS, Action-RPGs, etc. The type of game is mostly irrelevant. I would love to give you a list a mile long of modern MMO's, since people cannot comprehend past successes and will say UO failed because it only had 200k subs when WoW has 40 bajillion (different eras, different measures of success), but quite frankly, there are no modern MMO's that have had PvP that isn't horribly broken in some aspect. WAR would be the closest and for the most part people enjoyed the PvP in that game, but performance issues, faction/class balance issues, and end-game bugs/design flaws that never got worked out killed it. What this tells me is there is an untapped PvP-MMO market out there, not that PvP-MMO's will fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahrdol Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I find the PvP fun. You can't make everyone happy. No person is going to get 100% of what they want out of PvP system. If you don't like it and that is why you bought this game the best way to show your displeasure is with your wallet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtdead Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 TERA man huh? http://thecond.com/forum/topic/1722-a-deeper-look-into-ncsoft-vs-bluehole/ Might want to check that out and then decide if it'll even get released. But in general, you're right, it seems a lot of people are using this game as filler. Hmm, this was something, still I'm pretty interested in the game corporate espionage aside. Actually it's been a few days since I started digging info about the game so the legal matters were off my radar. I'll keep a closer look. But yes, the point is that I can't see swtor anything more than a filler right now. Was optimistic about the game for so long but I'm past that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigBee Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Originally Posted by Kryptorchid If you are going to generalize the PvP player base as "flaky" based on how they flock from game to game in MMOs (which is evident from the past), I am also going to generalize them as "dedicated" when they find a game that meets their needs. There isn't a good MMO nowadays that shows this, but look at other PvP-games like SC2, CS, WC3, etc. When a game comes along that offers fun and fulfilling PvP, the PvP-base will not be "flaky" anymore. RTS and MMO are not the same pvp type games List your MMO pvp type games please and you will see what hes talking about guess you cant read.... or are clueless SC2...RTS CS....FPS WC3...RTS none are mmos.....so his point is invaild and I asked him to give an example of MMO community that was not flaky the games im looking for are UO DAOC EVE WAR .................................because they are all diff and the community's are were flaky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lagwagonn Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I will give them some more time. Maybe 2 months or so to hash things out. I don't have a lot of faith in their programming and QA abilities though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beansoup Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Some people are truley naive here. Do you actually believe that these people are your friends? This is business that has been developed on hundred millions of dollars for years and expected to gain profit. If the product doesn't satisfy the customers, they'll take their money elsewhere. Like I did. I''m not going to play for a payed beta test to support EA/Bioware, I payed for a product with promised features and quality that I still don't have. So why should I pay monthly fee and wait for them to be implemented or fixed? I'll wait if they get their stuff together and then I might consider to re-subscribe. If not, sorry, I have better ways to use the money, sadly most of which i got cheated out of already on the purchase of this product with all the BS. Lost respect, bad business. Edited February 9, 2012 by Beansoup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golfwang Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Not all were WoW clones, personally I wouldn't call GW or Rift a WoW clone. Of course all MMOs have some things in common that differentiate them from other genres like FPS. P.S. Hoping that someone in the MMO development community will totally depart from the paradigm established by the most successful subscription based (read that as most profitable) game in the history of MMOs is probably unrealistic until WoW really crashes. Rift was deinitely a WoW clone in different clothing. Doesn't copying so heavily from an MMO in decline seem like a really bad idea though? Why not take everything good from WoW and improve upon or change everything causing people to unsub? It's as if the ToR devs lifted designs from WoW and pasted it into their game without any regard as to whether or not people from WoW liked it. Badge gear grinds? Did it for four years already. Warzone "honor" grinds? Did it for four years already. On top of that, nothing pvp related is new or different besides the Star Wars IP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigBee Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 They may not be the same type of games, but they garner the same mentalities. I don't just play MMO's you know. I play RTS, FPS, Action-RPGs, etc. The type of game is mostly irrelevant. I would love to give you a list a mile long of modern MMO's, since people cannot comprehend past successes and will say UO failed because it only had 200k subs when WoW has 40 bajillion (different eras, different measures of success), but quite frankly, there are no modern MMO's that have had PvP that isn't horribly broken in some aspect. WAR would be the closest and for the most part people enjoyed the PvP in that game, but performance issues, faction/class balance issues, and end-game bugs/design flaws that never got worked out killed it. What this tells me is there is an untapped PvP-MMO market out there, not that PvP-MMO's will fail. I can agree with you on that....thank you for clarifying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWImara Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The guy you quoted and the guy he was replying to never specified MMO vs. Fps vs. RTS PvP, the person calling the PvP community as "flaky" and such simply said PvP community I was the one quoted, and already pointed this out in a past post. I specifically said the "hardcore PvP" crowd, which is in no way the same as the "PvP community" I suppose I should have been more specific and stated "the hardcore PvP MMO crowd" but that seemed obvious given that we are on the SWTOR forums rather than trolling XBox Live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptorchid Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I can agree with you on that....thank you for clarifying NP, buddy Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nschlan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Rift was deinitely a WoW clone in different clothing. Doesn't copying so heavily from an MMO in decline seem like a really bad idea though? Why not take everything good from WoW and improve upon or change everything causing people to unsub? It's as if the ToR devs lifted designs from WoW and pasted it into their game without any regard as to whether or not people from WoW liked it. Badge gear grinds? Did it for four years already. Warzone "honor" grinds? Did it for four years already. On top of that, nothing pvp related is new or different besides the Star Wars IP. This. SWTOR is nothing except WoW in space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nschlan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I was the one quoted, and already pointed this out in a past post. I specifically said the "hardcore PvP" crowd, which is in no way the same as the "PvP community" I suppose I should have been more specific and stated "the hardcore PvP MMO crowd" but that seemed obvious given that we are on the SWTOR forums rather than trolling XBox Live. I forgot to put the Hardcore in my post, sorry, I know it was clarified earlier. Adding the MMO in there would've been a good idea considering PvP applies to more than just MMOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethyrprime Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Originally Posted by Kryptorchid If you are going to generalize the PvP player base as "flaky" based on how they flock from game to game in MMOs (which is evident from the past), I am also going to generalize them as "dedicated" when they find a game that meets their needs. There isn't a good MMO nowadays that shows this, but look at other PvP-games like SC2, CS, WC3, etc. When a game comes along that offers fun and fulfilling PvP, the PvP-base will not be "flaky" anymore. RTS and MMO are not the same pvp type games List your MMO pvp type games please and you will see what hes talking about guess you cant read.... or are clueless SC2...RTS CS....FPS WC3...RTS none are mmos.....so his point is invaild and I asked him to give an example of MMO community that was not flaky the games im looking for are UO DAOC EVE WAR .................................because they are all diff and the community's are were flaky Limited game types == bad math. Anarchy-Online had a dedicated PvP crowd that stuck with the game for nearly 10 years. So if you really want that question answered.. you should at least consider the games which actually had something to offer a dedicated PvPer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calei Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'm just sticking around until this comes out. These guys know what REAL PVP is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4VKhrCDWfg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nschlan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'm just sticking around until this comes out. These guys know what REAL PVP is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4VKhrCDWfg Indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts