Menisong Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Have u ever healed 16 man Operations ? You can feel that something is missing. You try keep people up but Dont have the tools to do it. In AOE moments single healing targets with Hots or direct heals is a painstaking work and isnt scaling good in harder content. Healing classes are almost in-Par up to 3-4 targets then efter that, the scaling is shopped off for 2 Classes. There needs to be tools in all healing classes that scales with number of participants in operations and scale with the Conent in operations. Have you ever healed in an mmo before? I never said the ability didn't need to be reworked. What I said was it does NOT need to be changed to heals everyone, there are many many ways to improve AoE healing without just making it hit everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 a)you never been to 16man probably. when 16people take aoe damage every 10secs and you need 3.5secs to heal 1 with single target healing.. then something is wrong. b)there doesn't exist smart healing in this game, that means, that your 4man aoe hot, or your 3 man nuke, just decided to heal those 3 people that where at 95% and not the other 10 that are dying.. tough luck right? not when luck decides for 10-15min downtime, and very costly repair bills for 16people. Have you ever healed in an mmo before? I never said the ability didn't need to be reworked. What I said was it does NOT need to be changed to heals everyone, there are many many ways to improve AoE healing without just making it hit everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnadarco Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Have you ever healed in an mmo before? I never said the ability didn't need to be reworked. What I said was it does NOT need to be changed to heals everyone, there are many many ways to improve AoE healing without just making it hit everyone. Lets keep it constructive and shere your ideas of other whays to improve AOE healing with or without removing the Cap in Scoundrels and Combat medics. How to make AOE scale equal for healing classes with 3 players up to 16 players content. They should just boost the healing of RN or limit the amount the sorcs AoE heals or targets. This will not scale on 16 man operations. Nerfing sorcer or making 4 targets get more heals. Its still 12 players that need Healing..... in a AOE situation. How to split the rest of those 12 people that didnt get a Kolto cloud ? inbetween the 3 other healers in a 16 man operation ? First i think RN or Kolto cloud needs a visable spot on the ground that Players can See and Run into and grab a HOT. Thats not the case now. Now i always slap Kolto cloud on 1 mele or Tank to heal up 3 other meles (if im lucky) the one that needs healing are in range and only 4. What i know AOE heals are no smart heals.... There is no selection between players with Full health or not. So Kolto cloud be a waste of time if it only heals up 1 target if 3 targets are at 100% health.... This must be adressed. Sages Sorcerers heal animation is nice. Then players see the heal on floor and can run into it. Those who needs healing can get it if they are close by. or.... smuggled "Kolto Tank". http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2775670#post2775670 Edited February 12, 2012 by Donnadarco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Lets keep it constructive and shere your ideas of other whays to improve AOE healing with or without removing the Cap in Scoundrels and Combat medics. How to make AOE scale equal for healing classes with 3 players up to 16 players content. This will not scale on 16 man operations. Nerfing sorcer or making 4 targets get more heals. Its still 12 players that need Healing..... in a AOE situation. How to split the rest of those 12 people that didnt get a Kolto cloud ? inbetween the 3 other healers in a 16 man operation ? First i think RN or Kolto cloud needs a visable spot on the ground that Players can See and Run into and grab a HOT. Thats not the case now. Now i always slap Kolto cloud on 1 mele or Tank to heal up 3 other meles (if im lucky) the one that needs healing are in range and only 4. What i know AOE heals are no smart heals.... There is no selection between players with Full health or not. So Kolto cloud be a waste of time if it only heals up 1 target if 3 targets are at 100% health.... This must be adressed. Sages Sorcerers heal animation is nice. Then players see the heal on floor and can run into it. Those who needs healing can get it if they are close by. or.... smuggled "Kolto Tank". http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2775670#post2775670 Yes, please take your own advice when making comments about keeping it constructive. It is likely that the sorc limit and /or effectivness will have to be changed. If you are not familiar with mmo healing, ill fill you in as you seem to be confused. AoE healing will have to be shared among the other healers. It is not the job of ONE healer to bring up the raid, it is on several healers, therefore it is not necessary that every class have unlimited targetted AoE heals or be able to heal every player in the raid. Smart heals is part of a better solution than "just give me an unlimited ground targeted operative AoE heal that is the same as the sorcs". This would be utter failure on the part of the devs. I personally don't mind the 4 person limit, but the effectivness is just not comparable to the sorcs atm. I would like smart heals and the devs play around with the cd, cost, and amount healed. However, ultimately I believe we will see changes to the sorc AoE heal as that is the real issue. I suspect we will see diminishing returns on it with more people stacked in the purple bubble. It is also pretty clear we are in a pay to play BETA right now and that HUGE class changes are coming. Edited February 12, 2012 by Menisong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corran Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 stackable hot should have it's costs halved so it can really be spread around. it's healing is lackluster on it's own and it's difficult to spread it around even in an 8 man unless you do nothing else kolto cloud is trash. it tickes every 3 seconds for less than a double stack slow release. 5 ticks. it's terrible and is compounded as people get gear and even your squishies have 17k+ health in an op. what is a 450 heal evey 3s going to do for them? jack all. the healing per tick should stay the same, the target limit should stay the same but it should tick every second for 10 seconds. remove the upper hand requirement for kolto pack. it's energy cost and lower healing output and lack of creating upper hand will keep it from ever replacing underworld medicine as our main healing tool in addition to providing energy on crit, let diagnostic scan talents also give the target a 10% boost to their armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 As others have said already, what is really needed is acknowledgment from the developers as to whether they believe things are working as intended or that changes are coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnadarco Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Have you ever healed in an mmo before? If you are not familiar with mmo healing, ill fill you in as you seem to be confused. Yes, please take your own advice when making comments about keeping it constructive. Cut it will you. Stop going after me like this. All i want is new ideas on how to improve AOE healing for Troopers and Scoundrels. lets try again and comment on this ... And leave me out of it this time. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2775670#post2775670 To solve the issue with AOE healing for scoundrels could be "Smuggled Kolto-tank" That is placed as a Artifact on the ground. All that needs healing can click on the Kolto tank and get a "hot" healing over time buff. Think of it like a "Healing well http://www.wowhead.com/spell=88201/healing-well This solution will make it possible to in a diffrent mechanic reach players that need healing in Operations both 8,16-man. This Kolto tank will be visable and can be placed on ground by Scoundrel on a stratigic spot so people that needs healing can get it by clicking on it from lets say 5 meters range. And all this without spamming the entire operations with powerfull unlimited AOE:s.... Just a sugestion. But lets see if there are more angles to this Idea ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Have u ever healed 16 man Operations ? . Hipocrite much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Cut it will you. Stop going after me like this. All i want is new ideas on how to improve AOE healing for Troopers and Scoundrels. lets try again and comment on this ... And leave me out of it this time. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2775670#post2775670 The last thing I want in this game for Operative healing is another healing well type ability. I enjoy being able to control my heals, not rely on others to click a "healing well" we know how this worked in other games...poorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zellandine Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The last thing I want in this game for Operative healing is another healing well type ability. I enjoy being able to control my heals, not rely on others to click a "healing well" we know how this worked in other games...poorly. The only time in which this particular mechanic is useful is when you are in a group with people you know, that communicate well and can work together with one another. It will, however, likely be extremely useless in a pug setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delmyr Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 If you are not familiar with mmo healing, ill fill you in as you seem to be confused. AoE healing will have to be shared among the other healers. It is not the job of ONE healer to bring up the raid, it is on several healers, therefore it is not necessary that every class have unlimited targetted AoE heals or be able to heal every player in the raid. but the fact remains that if infact every healer can't heal effectively enough then there is no reason to bring them like it is now with sorcs ( notice that they are the only class with unlimited aoe that heals for ton more and is easier to control). As a trade off they will need to have the ability to negate the same damage as a shield or short cooldown low cost high powered lower target aoe. Obviously that can't be the case so now we are back to square one: nerf encounters or remove limit and balance from there. Personally I would love to see KC apply SRMP instead to unlimited targets and have a burst ability to consume SRMP charges. Maybe have our 1.5 cast heal free for one charge and at two charges have it apply a 6 sec hot for 75% of the healing over the duration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The only time in which this particular mechanic is useful is when you are in a group with people you know, that communicate well and can work together with one another. It will, however, likely be extremely useless in a pug setting. Yeah, and even then in my opinion it i not a very fun ability for dps or healers. I don't enjoy having my healing effectveness taken out of my hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 but the fact remains that if infact every healer can't heal effectively enough then there is no reason to bring them like it is now with sorcs ( notice that they are the only class with unlimited aoe that heals for ton more and is easier to control). As a trade off they will need to have the ability to negate the same damage as a shield or short cooldown low cost high powered lower target aoe. Obviously that can't be the case so now we are back to square one: nerf encounters or remove limit and balance from there. Personally I would love to see KC apply SRMP instead to unlimited targets and have a burst ability to consume SRMP charges. Maybe have our 1.5 cast heal free for one charge and at two charges have it apply a 6 sec hot for 75% of the healing over the duration I agree that a change is needed. I don't want our operative AoE heal just turned into the sorc heal with unlimited targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrekorSilverfang Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 RN has a radius of 10m. Salv and Kolto Bomb/Missile are 8m. RN might heal for a lot less, but the HoT gets attached to the players, not the ground, so they are free to move after getting hit by RN, while they need to stand in the circle for Salv. That mobility sacrifice deserves some compensation. If you make the changes I suggested, hlave RN cost and remove all AoE player caps, then the two will be equal if players stay in the circle for 5s, but Salv will be more powerful if they can manage to stay there longer. I think that is fair, although exactly what that ratio should be is debatable, and can be easily adjusted later for balance. I think your grossly underestimate just how large an 8m radius provides room for. When you look at the graphic on the ground it's actual effect is twice that size... its actually quite large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delmyr Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I think your grossly underestimate just how large an 8m radius provides room for. When you look at the graphic on the ground it's actual effect is twice that size... its actually quite large. Right, the distance from one side of the circle to the other is 16m which also has a graphic so people know where to stand and how far. Much easier to use in a coordinated group than KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Right, the distance from one side of the circle to the other is 16m which also has a graphic so people know where to stand and how far. Much easier to use in a coordinated group than KC The healing done by the sorc AoE is much much bigger than just the graphic on the ground. The smuggler AoE is easier to use, the healer is in control of the best time/place to use it, problem is it doesn't do much healing for the cost. Edited February 13, 2012 by Menisong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vendorune Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 You are in the small minority. And you are in the large majority which instead of learning basic abilities of their class is begging devs to just make it easier to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEAF Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Is there a reason the developers can not implement basic smart targeting while they are going about this AoE rebalancing? Picking the lowest health targets is a trivial programming task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEAF Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 And you are in the large majority which instead of learning basic abilities of their class is begging devs to just make it easier to play. Please explain the "proper" use of Kolto Infusion. The rest of us appear to have missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delmyr Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Is there a reason the developers can not implement basic smart targeting while they are going about this AoE rebalancing? Picking the lowest health targets is a trivial programming task. I haven't read anything about a rebalancing only a confirmation that they are reading about the issue and yes there is an issue because depending on the coding they may have to redesign the ability from scratch. Making sure it works right is another issue. We need to see what plan they have to make healers EQUALLY viable before anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEAF Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I understand they may have to redo some abilities. All I am saying is that at some point all abilities have a target list thus what is the difficulty in adding 5 lines of code to sort and iterate from lowest to highest health until the target cap is reached? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delmyr Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 From what I am hearing is that the target acquisition is random at which case it could be coded that way Or the lines of code are simple and it works automatically depending on the coding. In the first scenario they would have to either expand, or destroy then add code to something that works. They then would need to make sure that out of the millions of lines of code nothing got misplaced or valued because of it or expand their data sheets etc. the second scenario calls for expansion or inserting lines Of code where there wasn't and thus they must search and test for any errors present. Not only that but they also need to make sure the ai is efficient and quick enough not to cause a delay or that the action itself isn't crossing boundaries it isn't meant to cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vendorune Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Please explain the "proper" use of Kolto Infusion. The rest of us appear to have missed it. I am not one to write-up pretty analysis letters for these boards... But simple put: (what I said before) just have it in rotation. Obviously you'll need to give a TA for it! It gives good results. No I don't use it "religiously", but it does improve how much I can heal for before I need to punch the Adrenal Probe. It is not obvious (due to cast times) but this improves hps long-term. I will add here that I find these threads rather silly. People compare BH and Op? BH is a heavy armor user!! Op gets a lot more toys in return... Stealth, Cover and various dps abilities. Operative is a stealther-healer. Perhaps if you are playing your Op and your tank died the real issue is that you didn't Backstab 4-5 times in that boss fight eh?:sul_cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I am not one to write-up pretty analysis letters for these boards... But simple put: (what I said before) just have it in rotation. Obviously you'll need to give a TA for it! It gives good results. No I don't use it "religiously", but it does improve how much I can heal for before I need to punch the Adrenal Probe. It is not obvious (due to cast times) but this improves hps long-term. I will add here that I find these threads rather silly. People compare BH and Op? BH is a heavy armor user!! Op gets a lot more toys in return... Stealth, Cover and various dps abilities. Operative is a stealther-healer. Perhaps if you are playing your Op and your tank died the real issue is that you didn't Backstab 4-5 times in that boss fight eh?:sul_cool: Describe to me how you play your operative healer as a "stealthier healer"? Key word here is healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vendorune Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Describe to me how you play your operative healer as a "stealthier healer"? Key word here is healer. Sometimes I just look for one of those low on health mobs after the pull and I shiv it! Dead = TA -> Kolto Infusion for the tank. Simple. But at other times there are no mobs low on health and the tank is dying in piles of them... So I use Kolto Injection = TA -> Carbine Burst! Rinse and repeat Yeah I do all the other stuff everyone else does - Kolto Probe, Nano, stim myself, blah. But overall I look at it this way - I either turn my TAs into extra healing (Kolto Infusion, not Surgical Probe) or extra damage. I try not to Kolto Injection -> Kolto Infusion unless I have to. Only in long and tedious fights when I can't really get into melee. How does Conc Op get his TA? Usually shiv. What he does with it? DPS. I get the benefit of both worlds - turn dps into healing and healing into dps. And that's the stealth healer for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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