Samborino Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Im a huge fan of this game I played through beta and Ive been enjoying it alot since I hit 50. And I understand that begining raid content should be easy but there are a few things im concerned about. 1. There is a very small amount of PVE gear at the end game. And its all rehashed from everything. For instance the same gear that drops in hard mode FP's drops in operations (like all the same gear there really isnt any different gear) even when they added more bosses in karragas for normal they just put in more gear from the hard modes and from the columi and tionese vendor. Why cant Each seperate mode (fp's , 16 mans, 8 mans) have their own seperate loot table, it would make replayability increase 10 fold , is it really that hard to add a bigger loot table? Im not a wow fan anymore but as a comparison Naxxramas alone probably had more PVE gear in it then this whole game has. Just look at it this way, when I ran hardmode heroics before I ran operations I got all my columi pieces as well as offhand etc. Plus tionese commendation pieces, so by the time i got around to running an operatioin i had every single piece of loot i needed already. And there is no point in me running 16 man as it drops the same loot as 8 man it just drops more of it. So im on to running hard modes which is fine, except the only extra things it really drops are the rakata pieces and the same problem there 16 and 8 man drop the exact same things. If you only have a few sets of gear and 1 best set of gear, then every pve player of a certain class will look the exact same. Is that really what you guys where shooting for? I certainly hope not. Its extremely dissapointing considering how much i like this game. Bioware i hope you realise that by the fairly simple task of making each one of these raids have unique gear you will increase replayability 10 fold, people dont have much incentive to run stuff if they dont need gear from it. Having pieces that are seperate from sets like Xenotech etc drop and making them rare drops would make it so people arent fully geared in 3 weeks of raiding and running hard modes. TLDR Add more gear , you guys have rehashed the gear of every "mode" in this game, the HM FP gear is the same as the gear that drops from 8 mans and 16 man normal operations and then the hard mode gear has columi and rakata is the only unique set. Make gear that is seperate from the 3 or 4 sets you guys have added to this game and put in every single raid and Flashpoint. Edit: Loot tables for Naxx and for End game PVE in SWTOR Loot that drops in naxxramas 10-25 modes http://www.wowwiki.com/Naxxramas_loot (press the little button in the top right corner of the loot table its missing about half of the table because they couldnt fit it width wise on the page) Loot table for the entire PVE end Game for SWTOR http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=214891 Naxx 10-25 has more loot than all of the SWTOR PVE end game. Thats dissapointing to me, im not a wow fanboy or anything i havent really played since WOTLK but i just thought it would be good to see a comparison with other games. Edited February 8, 2012 by Samborino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohraTon Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Don't the 25 grade mods drop in HM ops which let you have any orange set you want with comparable stats? Getting them essentially opens every orange set in the game for use without much of a drop in stats other than a set bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyonme Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) This is the problem we are faced with. Bioware spent so much time/money on the story and voice actors that they forgot about every other area in the game. The worst part is that most of the armor looks like 10 yr olds styled. Edited February 8, 2012 by Andyonme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiskyTimePanda Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 As a long time Mmo'er raids/operations never really clicked with me. The OP says he wants re-playability by adding more gear which to me, means more grinding of the same run for that ONE set piece that you never win every week. Instead you should be asking for more operations so you don't burn out getting Tier-1. 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) As a long time Mmo'er raids/operations never really clicked with me. The OP says he wants re-playability by adding more gear which to me, means more grinding of the same run for that ONE set piece that you never win every week. Instead you should be asking for more operations so you don't burn out getting Tier-1. 2 cents I agree, in a way but there is more than just the problem i explained in this post. Raids are too easy, our guild cleared 8 man EV in about an hour and a half on our first try, we wiped three times and none of us had ever done it before. So if your clearing raids the first time you step into them and not weeks later than more gear is certainly going to be neccesary (wow did both , ive never stepped into a raid in wow that was new to our guild and we cleared it on the first night, it just didnt happen unless your guild formed late and you all had badge gear and where doing raids from 2 patches back) Its just too easy to get gear and there is too little of it. They need to add a few unique pieces (1 for each class) to certain bosses or something . To give people some choice beyond tier pieces. Weather it be in HM FP's or normal operations or hard mode operations. And so that not everyone is wearing the same gear. Regardless of that, do you think its right that Flashpoints drop the same gear as 8 AND 16 man operations and the commendation loot for tionese columi is also all of that same loot? That seems like a little bit too much rehashing for my tastes. Their shouldnt just be 1 or 2 sets that every pve player has to get as they progress so that we all look the same that just sucks =( Sure you can add mods to your own pieces which is cool but this problem goes beyond just how the gear looks. Edited February 8, 2012 by Samborino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I just hope it doesnt continue on like this , i hope bioware find the time to give 8 and 16 man raids therr own loot tables as well as hard mode and possibly nightmare mode their own loot table or at least the same gear with upgraded stats for nightmare mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 As a long time Mmo'er raids/operations never really clicked with me. The OP says he wants re-playability by adding more gear which to me, means more grinding of the same run for that ONE set piece that you never win every week. Instead you should be asking for more operations so you don't burn out getting Tier-1. 2 cents Also I know they are working hard on more raids and raid wise they added a decent amount of content for launch, its just that it was too easy and people get their gear too easily from it because there is a very small variety of gear , they could have fairly easily prevented this. They did a great job of adding tons of gear during the leveling process, and i expected it to continue into the end game i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idali Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I don't think that there is not enough gear. Actually i think there is to much gear. Just look at the bazillion versions of the same piece, however, there is a definite lack of good looking gear. Most looks like concept rejects from a bad movie script, especially at end game. They should have spend a few 100k on getting the gear up to speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solemnone Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I'd just like gear that didn't look like it was fished out of a bog by Blizz, then patched up with an old exhaust manafold, and a toaster welded to it. (AKA, every high level piece of BH armor out there.) Hopefully in a year or two they will realize that looks need to be on par with functionality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I don't think that there is not enough gear. Actually i think there is to much gear. Just look at the bazillion versions of the same piece, however, there is a definite lack of good looking gear. Most looks like concept rejects from a bad movie script, especially at end game. They should have spend a few 100k on getting the gear up to speed. Are you talking about all the different set pieces? Because there are 3 different versions of tier 1 tionese columi and rakata. Aside from that their are 2 other sets that drop Energized and Xenotech. And that is it. Basically 3 sets and the same pieces that drop in raids also drop in Hardmode flashpoints or for the tier pieces the same pieces that drop are the ones you can get from commendations or from the 8 or 16 man modes (which both drop the exact same gear) and then the hard mode operations that have gear that overlap like columi pieces and then nightmare mode which offers no new loot and is the exact same loot table as Hard mode. What about the last 2 bosses of the new FP KAON they both drop the exact same loot (columi head pieces) now that is lazy >< I love this game, but at the same time i have never seen a game that has had so little and so much rehashed loot spread throughout end game PVE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Just as a comparison for people to look at. No I am not a wow fanboy and i never intend to play wow again im not going to go back there just because i dont like the loot system in this game but it is a good comparison to note. Loot that drops in naxxramas 10-25 modes http://www.wowwiki.com/Naxxramas_loot (press the little button in the top right corner of the loot table its missing about half of the table because they couldnt fit it width wise on the page) Loot table for the entire PVE end Game for SWTOR http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=214891 Their is actually Xenotech and Exotech i thought they were the same. I still think its too little though especially when tionese gear is virtually useless, by the time you get enough comms for tionese/energized/ exotech which all are at the same par you will already have moost of the columi pieces unless you were quite unlucky. There is no way anyone ended up with full tionese set that raided and did Hard mode FP's i personally only ever had 1 piece of tionese and I had it for 1 day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal-N Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 There is certainly an issue with the sheer lack of diversity in armor appearances. One of the reasons Bioware claimed that the color matching feature was removed from the game was because they felt it deflated the sense of achievement when you loot a peice of equipment that is the same color and style as the one you already have. Well sorry to say this Bioware, but I don't get excited over looting a new pair of gloves that look identical to what I'm wearing except in a different color! Too much money was spent in the wrong place. Your characters appearance is very, very important to many players and people don't like seeing everyone around them in the same gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 There is certainly an issue with the sheer lack of diversity in armor appearances. One of the reasons Bioware claimed that the color matching feature was removed from the game was because they felt it deflated the sense of achievement when you loot a peice of equipment that is the same color and style as the one you already have. Well sorry to say this Bioware, but I don't get excited over looting a new pair of gloves that look identical to what I'm wearing except in a different color! Too much money was spent in the wrong place. Your characters appearance is very, very important to many players and people don't like seeing everyone around them in the same gear. I agree but it also isnt going to be fixed through adding more "sets" There needs to be gear that is not part of any set that is just a unique looking item that you can mix and match with your set items etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyanzor Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Im a huge fan of this game I played through beta and Ive been enjoying it alot since I hit 50. And I understand that begining raid content should be easy but there are a few things im concerned about. 1. There is a very small amount of PVE gear at the end game. And its all rehashed from everything. For instance the same gear that drops in hard mode FP's drops in operations (like all the same gear there really isnt any different gear) even when they added more bosses in karragas for normal they just put in more gear from the hard modes and from the columi and tionese vendor. Why cant Each seperate mode (fp's , 16 mans, 8 mans) have their own seperate loot table, it would make replayability increase 10 fold , is it really that hard to add a bigger loot table? Im not a wow fan anymore but as a comparison Naxxramas alone probably had more PVE gear in it then this whole game has. Just look at it this way, when I ran hardmode heroics before I ran operations I got all my columi pieces as well as offhand etc. Plus tionese commendation pieces, so by the time i got around to running an operatioin i had every single piece of loot i needed already. And there is no point in me running 16 man as it drops the same loot as 8 man it just drops more of it. So im on to running hard modes which is fine, except the only extra things it really drops are the rakata pieces and the same problem there 16 and 8 man drop the exact same things. If you only have a few sets of gear and 1 best set of gear, then every pve player of a certain class will look the exact same. Is that really what you guys where shooting for? I certainly hope not. Its extremely dissapointing considering how much i like this game. Bioware i hope you realise that by the fairly simple task of making each one of these raids have unique gear you will increase replayability 10 fold, people dont have much incentive to run stuff if they dont need gear from it. Having pieces that are seperate from sets like Xenotech etc drop and making them rare drops would make it so people arent fully geared in 3 weeks of raiding and running hard modes. TLDR Add more gear , you guys have rehashed the gear of every "mode" in this game, the HM FP gear is the same as the gear that drops from 8 mans and 16 man normal operations and then the hard mode gear has columi and rakata is the only unique set. Make gear that is seperate from the 3 or 4 sets you guys have added to this game and put in every single raid and Flashpoint. Edit: Loot tables for Naxx and for End game PVE in SWTOR Loot that drops in naxxramas 10-25 modes http://www.wowwiki.com/Naxxramas_loot (press the little button in the top right corner of the loot table its missing about half of the table because they couldnt fit it width wise on the page) Loot table for the entire PVE end Game for SWTOR http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=214891 Naxx 10-25 has more loot than all of the SWTOR PVE end game. Thats dissapointing to me, im not a wow fanboy or anything i havent really played since WOTLK but i just thought it would be good to see a comparison with other games. Wait...did you just say SWTOR rehashes their gear then tell us WoW doesn't do that? Let me enlighten you, Naxx came from the end of vanilla WoW just before BC was released and then Blizzard (and their smart ideas), "rehashed" Naxx and threw it in WOTLK....yaaaa. DragonSoul, nothing but rehashed boss skins except Deathwing The Octopus lol!!! 80% of WoW's is rehashed skins just different colors. Im guessing this thread wasn't serious but a troll thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quezcotl Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) naxxramas was a dungeon for the 2nd expansion 4-year (48 months) after release, you compare that with SWTOR which been out for 2 months? I suspect that within 2-3 years the game will have much more gear, and the reason why all gear looks crapy atm(columi/rakata) is because they want the future content to probably have the truly epic gear. Edited February 8, 2012 by quezcotl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 naxxramas was a dungeon for the 2nd expansion 4-year (48 months) after release, you compare that with SWTOR which been out for 2 months? I suspect that within 2-3 years the game will have much more gear, and the reason why all gear looks crapy atm(columi/rakata) is because they want the future content to probably have the truly epic gear. It was still a begining raid for an expansion. How is comparing the loot of one raid to another. Im not comparing the content. And i know that the bosses where rehashed for Naxxramas obviously maybe it was a bad example i could have taken BWL or MC from wow and it would have been similair. Im not some huge wow fanboy i quit playing during WOTLK im just saying that ive never seen an mmo where so much gear was rehashed. 8 and 16 man raids have the same gear, hard modes have some of the same gear as normal mode raids. HM Flashpoints have the exact same gear as Normal Mode Operations. This is and the difficulty of the raids are the 2 underlying problems with why people are blowing through the content so fast and feel like they have nothing to do. Ive never been in a raid in the many mmo's ive played where ive almost 1 shot every raid boss on my first try. Hell normally its rare to get anything more than a boss or 2 down on your first try unless its old content and your overgeared through other means of getting gear but havent done it yet. I think the one problem that alot of people dont realise is that its just too easy to get gear, and i dont think people would complain about it at the time because they are happy they are getting gear. 4 pieces dropping from every boss in an 8 man raid is far too much. Just as an example (im not a wow fanboy i swear, but i played it for many years so its my frame of reference) 10 mans dropped what 2 pieces (it could have been 3 but im pretty sure it was 2) Not to mention there is no need for tionese gear, here is how gear progression went for me and how it goes for most. Daily mods armoring ---> Hard Modes---> Full Columi 5 piece set (i got mine in 2 days of doing hm's it really shouldnt take more than a week tops though)----> normal mode EV KP where the exact same gear drops hence you dont need pretty much anything except a main hand and maybe an ear piece but you can buy the columi implants and get your rakata ear piece from dailies anyways. Now im geared full columi about a week after hitting 50 (this was several weeks ago) and now im running hardmodes, where columi gear drops (rehashed from hm FP's And normal mode operations) and rakata gear and exotech which also drops from KP and is on par with columi gear but without set bonus's. So now i only have 1 type of gear to look forward too at top level columi gear and so does every other gunslinger. There is a serious problem when there is only 1 set for the top end gear and everyone will look exactly the same, not to mention there is no real sense of (oh damn i finally got this super rare drop gear) thats part of the excitement of raiding working hard for weeks and finally getting that piece that rarely drops that you really need. Not running EV twice and realizing you have every piece you need until youve finished hard mode. I just hope they dont continue on this path, i think its fine for launch (if not a bit annoying) but having the same gear for commendations every raid and HM flashpoints with the only difference being that 1 different set drops from the hardest raids is more than a little dissapointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Wait...did you just say SWTOR rehashes their gear then tell us WoW doesn't do that? Let me enlighten you, Naxx came from the end of vanilla WoW just before BC was released and then Blizzard (and their smart ideas), "rehashed" Naxx and threw it in WOTLK....yaaaa. DragonSoul, nothing but rehashed boss skins except Deathwing The Octopus lol!!! 80% of WoW's is rehashed skins just different colors. Im guessing this thread wasn't serious but a troll thread. At no point did i mention anything about rehashed bosses i was stricly talking about the loot. I could have pointed out a vanilla wow raid and the results would have been the same. They didnt rehash the same gear that was in Scholomance or UBRS and put it in Molten core, you see what im saying. Also their were tons of pieces beyond tier 1 (and maybe another set) that dropped there where just random good pieces (perhaps best in slot) that dropped. I remember my friend getting warlock pants off a world boss in vanilla wow that where best in slot (or very close) and he was super pumped they werent a part of 1 or 2 other sets that they had besides tier 1, they where just nice pants not part of a stupid set. Sets are fine and dandy but other pieces that are their own entity need to be put in the game for many different reasons, one of the more important being so that everyone doesnt look the same in end game PVE. We were standing on the platform before facing SOA today and we all looked exactly the same, even cross class all our armor had that brownish orange color. Raiding is about teamwork, socialising and loot to progress your character alot of people play mmo's because they like the feeling of character progression knowing your character is constantly getting better. BW has taken alot of that away by making gear to easy to get and having a very abysmal diversity of gear. This isnt an im quitting post or something, i love this game even if it is mostly to level up alts now that i can really only raid once or twice a week and it takes us only an hour and a half -2 hours to clear EV. I just hope they know that they could slow down gear progression alot and add more gear and i think everyone would be happier whether they agree or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitheril Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Wait...did you just say SWTOR rehashes their gear then tell us WoW doesn't do that? Let me enlighten you, Naxx came from the end of vanilla WoW just before BC was released and then Blizzard (and their smart ideas), "rehashed" Naxx and threw it in WOTLK....yaaaa. DragonSoul, nothing but rehashed boss skins except Deathwing The Octopus lol!!! 80% of WoW's is rehashed skins just different colors. Im guessing this thread wasn't serious but a troll thread. Maybe you should relax just a little bit, and stop acting like an ***. Calling it a troll thread while also mocking someone and also bashing another game makes you 10 times the troll tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocNessMonster Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) I just hope it doesnt continue on like this , i hope bioware find the time to give 8 and 16 man raids therr own loot tables as well as hard mode and possibly nightmare mode their own loot table or at least the same gear with upgraded stats for nightmare mode. They need to be careful about adding new gear though. Even Blizzard thought they made too many gear levels for WOTLK and thus made gear similar between 10-25 man modes. Gear inflation is so bad in WOW right now that the developers are contemplating a big number crunch for the next expansion. If they were to continue with their gear progression like in WOTLK tanks would have 500000 health for the Dragonsoul tier. Edited February 8, 2012 by RocNessMonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonskies Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 you do realize that until transmog came out if you were in end tier gear in wow you looked like someone else. You either were a paladin tank in paladin tier gear or warrior look alike gear for example. Most of the gear in the raids are just rehashed from another classes tier to look like them. Gear rehashing and boss rehashing is just a plague of RPGs/games in general. You can even go back to FF1 and see how many times an imp was rehashed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) you do realize that until transmog came out if you were in end tier gear in wow you looked like someone else. You either were a paladin tank in paladin tier gear or warrior look alike gear for example. Most of the gear in the raids are just rehashed from another classes tier to look like them. Gear rehashing and boss rehashing is just a plague of RPGs/games in general. You can even go back to FF1 and see how many times an imp was rehashed. Yes i agree, with tier gear you did look like someone else in wow that isnt my point though. My point is that this game actually rehashes all of its gear between all of its end game content. Wow may have had people looking the same in tier gear, but at least heroics had their own loot table. 8 mans had their own loot table and 16 mans had their own loot table. Not to mention these loot tables where far more vast in numbers. In this game tionese commedation gear is the same as hardmode FP gear is the same as normal ops gear. Same with the columi commendations except for you can include hard mode ops into that equation as well. The only set that is somewhat unique is rakata but even that is rehashed between 8 and 16 and hard mode and nightmare. This is launch im not too worried about it at the moment, i just hope BW doesnt keep up with this pattern of rehashed loot between new raids and new flashpoints. I hope they seperate what 8 man and 16 mans drop and make hard mode FP's have their own loot table. You know how much faster people finish content if they have 5 ways to get 1 item instead of 5 ways to get 5 different unique items. Its one of the underlying problems with why people are finishing content so fast. Edited February 8, 2012 by Samborino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathDiciple Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 As a long time Mmo'er raids/operations never really clicked with me. The OP says he wants re-playability by adding more gear which to me, means more grinding of the same run for that ONE set piece that you never win every week. Instead you should be asking for more operations so you don't burn out getting Tier-1. 2 cents This pretty much. More content not more gear to farm same content for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 This pretty much. More content not more gear to farm same content for. I agree with that as well. It doesnt bother you at all that the same gear that drops from hard mode FP's also drops from 8 man operations and 16 man operations or that commendations for tionese columi also have that exact same gear. Im just trying to be realistic because it takes alot more time to develop and balance raid content then it does to create an extra loot table or 2 for some of these modes, it would increase longevity of the game until these new raids come out. Like i said before if you can get the same piece of gear in 5 different places instead of 5 pieces of unique gear in those 5 different places your going to have finished content far faster (in terms of actually needing loot at least) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Also part of the problem is the fact that 4 pieces of loot drop from 8 mans. I think the amount of loot that drops from HM FP's is fine but from the raids its far too much half the raid gets gear off of every boss is a little ridiculous. And I can see alot of people not thinking that it is a problem because they like getting loot, but now those same people complain about nothing to do. I think its a pretty obvious problem i dont know how BW got off thinking it would be a good idea for 8 man raid bosses to drop 4 pieces of loot each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcelleus Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I think the point the poster is trying to get a cross is not that the gear looks the same, but that gear diversity makes raids more pertinent for longer, for instance if you hit raids in the current set up you have two pieces of gear to aspire towards per gear slot. Therefore in your first week of running hard modes you could if very lucky and the only one from your class in raid easily pick up all your rakata gear and be done the same holds true for normal modes, except gear can already be attained if you pour enough time into hard mode 4 mans so normal modes are perhaps obsoleted even faster, and since nightmare mode just drops rakata as well they are essentially useless. Now if gear was not overlapping then you might have to spend a few more weeks running each raid type before raid members start to view it as obsolete, furthermore if you were add off set gear pieces that may be better worse or equivalent to set pieces, that would extend the life of a raid, because then raiders they may have already gotten their sets would keep coming back for a chance at their best in slot. This essentially makes the same raids relevant for longer where as now some players are geared in three weeks and then the never show again, because they have no incentive to show. So what I suggest would be to make slightly upgraded set pieces for all 16 mans, and then leave energized etc for normal modes, but add off set unique pieces to hard modes that are better than columni gear, and add off set unique pieces to nightmare mode that are better than rakata gear. Also make these gear pieces have low drop rates aka they won't drop every time, and preferrably make them really cool looking. This way people have incentive to come back week after week, because as it currently stands you always have the lone smuggler or trooper that is geared in 3 weeks and then never shows again, because the content is no longer relevant for them. By adding these off set unique hard to attain pieces you ensure relevancy of a raid till future content releases. Edited February 24, 2012 by Marcelleus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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