If you are 50 and a PvPer, why are you still here?

[Pashgan]

System didn't want to get my credit card to activate account (same card used to purchase the game - it was perfectly fine) thus I had to use 2 months game time card - I guess game paid until March, 18. Edited February 7, 2012 by Pashgan

[Mcfree]

A few flaws with your argument.

 

First off, GW1's PVP was very successful, and probably the 3rd most successful PVP in an MMO after DAoC and WoW.

 

Second, I'm aware ANet has Blizzard employees. They also have Mythic employees who were directly involved in DAoC, and they are aiming more toward DAoC PVP rather than WoW PVP.

 

Third, I played GW2 at PAX East. Several times. The PVP is absolutely solid. The one battleground available isn't much different than Arathi Basin or the Alderaan WZ, but the mechanics were far more unique and took a lot more skill than anything you could say in this game. The fights began before they even started, choosing the right traits to pair with your skills, and selecting the weapons for situations you think you might find yourself in. Another part of it was learning when to switch and where to place certain traps (considering combo abilities). Can't say any of that in this game.

 

There are two problems I see with GW2, and one of which has to do with PVE. On the PVP side, my only qualm is the supposed ability to switch servers with a minimum penalty. Considering their WvWvW which puts 3 servers against each other, a big problem I see is people flocking to the "best" server and shutting out the other two.

 

Mechanics-wise, GW2 is far more fun and involves far more skill.

 

GW2 will fail for one reason. Western players don't like looking like anime characters. Look at Aion if you don't believe me, huge in the east fail in the west.

 

O and lol at GW2 combat it feels as if your playing on the Wii, very clunky movement, although it is nice that it is somewhat twitch based.

 

And if it's anything like GW it will be a pain for any casual palyers because it's basically organized group v group. Leaving the guildless/casuals to get farmed all day.

[avulsedtherogue]

I love how PvPers think this game revolves around them. It'll be nice to see this forum actually turn constructive once all of the impatient, ADD twitch kids leave.

whatever new mmo game comes out,pve has always been the main concentration.

pvp being almost an afterthought.

 

we pvp players get 3 warzones,an open world pvp zone on that crappy sandplanet noone plays and ofcourse the evermagnificent illum who people rather see dissapear from the game altogether.

 

we have the right to complain about the meager pvp content full of bugs.

now be a good boy and sod off to your pve content.

Edited February 7, 2012 by avulsedtherogue

[Lazorous]

Here's the problem with your argument: subjective statements made as fact.

 

"GW2 is far more fun and involves far more skill" quantify these statements. How do you know we find the same things fun? How do you know we agree on what takes more skill? Some argue that WoW takes no skill, some argue it takes a buttload.

 

"GW1's PVP was very successful, and probably the 3rd most successful PVP in an MMO after DAoC and WoW.G" quantify these statements. How are you determining success? What metric are you using to rank the success of the PvP.

 

You see all the arguments you've made are IDENTICAL to the arguments people made when WAR was on the horizon. Literally carbon-copy arguments.

 

And those arguments were said about AoC too.

 

People played them at trade shows and reported on the forums that they were "solid" and yet, they released and we all saw the reality.

 

I've been doing this MMO thing for a while, I've heard your arguments before, just about different games.

 

+1

 

5char

[fungihoujo]

Because it's balanced, it's better pvp than other AAA mmos, WZ promote pvp instead of running away (ie- all WoW's BGs), and with decent players on both sides it's fun- which is a decent number of the games I play.

 

Also, low level pvp is a great experience- which would suggest once gear evens out, so will endgame pvp.

 

Will just have to hope they fix up world pvp and Ilum- but, no mmo I've played had great world pvp off the bat.

[SWImara]

And those arguments were said about AoC too.

 

People played them at trade shows and reported on the forums that they were "solid" and yet, they released and we all saw the reality.

 

I've been doing this MMO thing for a while, I've heard your arguments before, just about different games.

Well said, honestly it was AoC that unquestionably broke my shriveled little black PvPer heart. That game was about all I could have asked for in a genre and the PvP conceptually was not only unique but very interesting. On release it was quickly evident that AoC was one of the biggest PvP disasters in years. People have explained AoC's failings via host of reasons but in my opinion it boils down to something I noted above. Twitch gaming is to a degree worthless when people aren't using the same measuring stick. AoC's combat system was to be blunt *********** amazing in an MMO, collision, real time dodging, I mean it was the sort of stuff PvPers asked about for years and it was available in a AAA MMO. Unfortunately not everyone used the same system, which made any future attempts at balancing worthless. Why should one bother to figure out the super-complicated and "skill based" twitch melee system when anyone can instead start out with a spell caster and melt face with three buttons?

 

Ultimately this is what I saw as the problem, the thing that makes FPS games "skill based" in these gamers eyes is that theoretically all players have the same set of opportunities and limitations. This is impossible in an MMO unless equipment is removed and everyone has the same exact character, I doubt anyone would want to play that game, and certainly would not be willing to pay monthly for it. Yet still the esports MMO crowd insists that twitch is the way to go and fast paced, frenzied MMO PvP is the route toward success. Note: when there are esports PvP tournaments, people are set up with the same spec and gear... doesn't that defeat the whole idea of playing an MMO? Of course developers could aim for gear to have very little impact, but then the issue of gear composition remains.

 

To be blunt I don't think the MMO PvP crowd has any idea *** they even want, and if the "perfect" PvP MMO is ever discovered it'll probably be kicked to the basement bin with all other niche games anyway.

[Yfelsung]

I prefer cerebral combat systems in an MMO or RPG.

 

Your reflexes shouldn't determine victory, your brain should.

 

A good MMO combat system should be like playing 3-dimensional chess.

 

The problem I have with GW2 is it looks like playing checkers with a half sized board.

 

A twitched based game gives all the advantage to younger players. I'm 28, that's like saying I'm 95 in competitive gaming because at 28 my reflexes have already diminished too far to be a pro RTS player or pro FPS player.

 

But a cerebral system gives advantage to the smarter and more experienced player, not the faster one. Some twitch is nice, and some reflexes should be involved, but in the end a good system should mean a guy with an IQ of 130 trounces a guy with an IQ of 95 every time, even if the guy with an IQ of 95 has the reflexes of an NHL goalie.

 

GW2 appears to be for the 95s, not the 130s. Not saying SWTOR is exactly for the 130s either, but at least I've found that tactical rotation of my abilities has performed better than people running around me like a jackrabbit on meth.

[Semitote]

The PvP in this game is challenging. And Huttball is the best PvP-style I have ever played. Huttball alone will make me stay. (Not only is it fun, but it helps reduce queue times. It's a win-win.)

 

The only thing that really frustrates me is the respec cost to switch between my PvP Rage DPS spec & my PvE Immortal Tank spec twice a week (four respecs a week). 150-200k a week isn't too terrible since I can more than make that much pretty easy with dailies, but still annoying. Having to queue as a tank to get my dailies done because I can't afford a respec is annoying.

 

I'm here strictly for PvP and Operations. I haven't done a hardmode Flashpoint in over a month. And I've done Ilum/Belsavis/Spaceship non-PvP dailies maybe 3-5 days in the past month.

 

PvP isn't as bad as you make it out to be. I think the change made in today's patch will help players make it from fresh 50 to respectable pvp'er a bit quicker. And that should help balance Warzones. Though, in Ilum it will only make the larger faction even more imbalanced.

[CapitaFK]

Here's the problem with your argument: subjective statements made as fact.

 

"GW2 is far more fun and involves far more skill" quantify these statements. How do you know we find the same things fun? How do you know we agree on what takes more skill? Some argue that WoW takes no skill, some argue it takes a buttload.

 

"GW1's PVP was very successful, and probably the 3rd most successful PVP in an MMO after DAoC and WoW.G" quantify these statements. How are you determining success? What metric are you using to rank the success of the PvP.

 

You see all the arguments you've made are IDENTICAL to the arguments people made when WAR was on the horizon. Literally carbon-copy arguments.

 

And those arguments were said about AoC too.

 

People played them at trade shows and reported on the forums that they were "solid" and yet, they released and we all saw the reality.

 

I've been doing this MMO thing for a while, I've heard your arguments before, just about different games.

 

I agree stating something as far more fun is completely subjective. However, skill can be argued as fact when you consider the mechanics of either game.

 

SW:ToR - Gear means victory. No matter how good another player is, someone in Battlemaster gear will beat an unlucky 50 with 4 pieces of Champion gear. Period. Unless the BM is AFK.

 

How do you acquire gear? Does it involve skill? No. It simply doesn't. You can either grind out trading kills with the opposite faction until rank 60, or you can grind out WZ all day where you can eventually reach rank 60 just by joining and not doing anything else, win or lose.

 

GW2 - You go into PVP with all the level-appropriate abilities and traits (you're in charge of attaching them to each other for maximum effectiveness), and you all have equal gear. Considering gear, level, and traits/talents differences are no rendered moot, all that stands between you and victory is how much better you are at playing your class than the other person (with a little bit of luck as well for RNG).

 

GW had (has) a very strong E-Sport community with tournaments and prizes from official leagues that also hosted other major arena-type games. Granted, DAoC wasn't quite E-Sport material, despite being some of the best PVP in MMO history, but that has more to do with battleground-type PVP lending itself far better to E-Sports than mass PVP. Regardless, major E-Sport leagues wouldn't pick up unsuccessful games to cover because they're business themselves.

[Aleryan]

Do you know how many MMOs have been released with the "superior PvP" tag? Ever since WoW, MMOs come out every year saying "We'll have THE BEST PvP".

 

And do you know what happens? Another game with PvP not as good as DAOC comes out. Another game that claims this and that and comes out and can't even match a PvP game that's almost a decade old.

 

Rockpapershotgun did a good write up about GW2 when they got a chance to play a test build, do you know what they said? Paraphrased "It's a good MMO, but it still hasn't reinvented the wheel and still feels like every other MMO with a bit of extra flash on the ability animations."

 

Do you know who Arenanet is? Like the actual people who work at Arenanet. They're the developers who made WoW. They left Blizzard when Blizzard partnered with Vivendi and they made Arenanet.

 

These are the guys who coded WoW, and you expect an amazing PvP game?

 

So what's the next game after GW2 fails to live up to your expectations? What's the game you guys will tout as "the future" of MMOs once GW2 tanks?

 

You haven't even played the game and you're claiming it's the saviour of MMO PvP.

 

I'll tell you what will be the saviour of MMO PvP. Whenever Mythic pulls their head out of their *** and makes DAoC2.

 

GW2 has boring art and world and has untested gameplay. How can you make assumptions with that information that it's the saviour of MMO PvP?

 

Well said. Im even excited for GW2 but I find it amusing how so many are already hyping this game beyond belief without actually having played it, based solely on marketing hype. I HOPE it will be great, but lets not all start sucking each others ***** just yet. I still remember 4 years ago when everyone was so pumped for Warhammer...ABSOLUTELY convinced it was going to be the best pvp mmo ever and utterly destroy WoW...only to come crawling back to WoW a month after release.

 

Hey, guess what...you know how many mmos launched perfectly, with a huge end game in place and well balanced, minimum bugs, excellent server stability? You know that game? I sure dont, because it never existed. If your a gamehopper who only gives a game a month, your living an awful disappointed life.

[DJBayview]

Waiting for gw2, warhammer and daoc too old to go back to.

 

this. gw2.

[SWImara]

Well said. Im even excited for GW2 but I find it amusing how so many are already hyping this game beyond belief without actually having played it, based solely on marketing hype. I HOPE it will be great, but lets not all start sucking each others ***** just yet. I still remember 4 years ago when everyone was so pumped for Warhammer...ABSOLUTELY convinced it was going to be the best pvp mmo ever and utterly destroy WoW...only to come crawling back to WoW a month after release.

What makes this extra amusing is that in many ways WAR was a much better PvP mmo than WoW, however its lack of polish and some lasting flaws led folks to leave. I begin to wonder if uber marketing hype might not be more of a curse than a blessing for the long-term stability of a game. Sure it makes its $$ back quickfast with a huge release, but the crowd thats brought in by hype is basically the same crowd (I'd be surprised if its changed much at all since WoW came out basically) they show up, crap on the game fo ra few months then leave deeming it a "failure" beofre moving back to esports arenas and gear grinding in woW.

[Venilator]

Should be obvious now that qq'ers and malcontents congregate on the forums

 

They always do and they also always talk up about how the game is going to die because it isn't catering to their playstyle and section of the game. They will go we will forget them and they will buy games and jump ships a month after launch.

[CapitaFK]

For the record, I don't think GW2 will "kill" WoW. The only thing that will kill WoW is WoW itself. But I firmly believe GW2 will kill SW:ToR. Not kill it in terms of revenue, but kill it in terms of growth. Edited February 7, 2012 by CapitaFK

[SWImara]

For the record, I don't think GW2 will "kill" WoW. The only thing that will kill WoW is WoW itself. But I firmly believe GW2 will kill SW:ToR.

If nothing else I suspect its easy to mark this argument as nonsense based on the assumption that the same types of folks play SWTOR as are interested in GW2. I would seriously love to see some data on time spent in varied activities by the average SWTOR player (particularly in relation to time spent on the forums).

 

Note: I plan to play GW2, I just don't expect it to be jesus part 2.

[richardya]

In GW2 we will see the same complaints from the same people.

The WZ's are fun and Ilum is fun.

[Yfelsung]

I agree stating something as far more fun is completely subjective. However, skill can be argued as fact when you consider the mechanics of either game.

 

Allow me to refute some of these

 

SW:ToR - Gear means victory. No matter how good another player is, someone in Battlemaster gear will beat an unlucky 50 with 4 pieces of Champion gear. Period. Unless the BM is AFK.

How do you acquire gear? Does it involve skill? No. It simply doesn't. You can either grind out trading kills with the opposite faction until rank 60, or you can grind out WZ all day where you can eventually reach rank 60 just by joining and not doing anything else, win or lose.

Not true in the slightest. Let's be honest here, most MMO players are terrible players. They are the bottom of the barrel in skill level. As a person who plays RTS, FPS, MMOs, Action games etc, etc, I notice I am significantly more skilled than the average "I just play MMOs" player. My Juggernaut has 2 pieces of Champ gear. A chest and offhand. In a 1 v 1 fight, as long as I can get that fight into a corner where no other player gets involved, I will beat any class at any gear level. A full BM geared person has a 15% bonus across 3 stats to a freshly geared 50. They take 15% less damage, do 15% more damage and 15% more healing from Expertise. I am, on average, more than 15% better than most pure MMO players due to their lack of experience in other, harder genre of game.

 

 

 

GW2 - You go into PVP with all the level-appropriate abilities and traits (you're in charge of attaching them to each other for maximum effectiveness), and you all have equal gear. Considering gear, level, and traits/talents differences are no rendered moot, all that stands between you and victory is how much better you are at playing your class than the other person (with a little bit of luck as well for RNG).

 

A man with a knife vs a man with a sword doesn't mean the man with the knife won't win. Gear gives an advantage, but as I pointed out it's only about a 15% advantage overall from Expertise. The odds of you fighting people that are within 15% of your skill level is very small. Now, a player without PvP gear who beats one with PvP gear is even more skilled than anyone who wins any fight in a game with equalized skills.

 

One of the joys of PvP in an MMO is beating the better geared player, because nothing feels better than being able to objectively say "I'm better than you, and the fact you're wearing gear and I'm not proves this beyond a doubt."

 

Equal fights aren't as fun as beating a guy dripping in purps or one that is higher level than you. I like the challenge, that's skill to me, fighting with a handicap.

 

GW had (has) a very strong E-Sport community with tournaments and prizes from official leagues that also hosted other major arena-type games. Granted, DAoC wasn't quite E-Sport material, despite being some of the best PVP in MMO history, but that has more to do with battleground-type PVP lending itself far better to E-Sports than mass PVP. Regardless, major E-Sport leagues wouldn't pick up unsuccessful games to cover because they're business themselves.

 

Dawn of War is a better RTS than SC2, but SC2 is the E-sport.

 

Mortal Kombat is the more fun fighting game, but Street Fighter is the one that gets all the tournaments.

 

Halo gets more tournaments than most other FPS games, second would probably be CoD.

 

Yet are Halo and CoD the best shooters? No.

 

Being an E-sport usually means you're the less fun game.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Yfelsung

[veyl]

whatever new mmo game comes out,pve has always been the main concentration.

pvp being almost an afterthought.

 

we pvp players get 3 warzones,an open world pvp zone on that crappy sandplanet noone plays and ofcourse the evermagnificent illum who people rather see dissapear from the game altogether.

 

we have the right to complain about the meager pvp content full of bugs.

now be a good boy and sod off to your pve content.

 

Aww, guy! Are you sad? I'll hit battlemaster within the next few days and have cleared all the content on hard +half of it on nightmare. You see child, I play the game from all angles because I enjoy playing them for what they are (That's both PVP and PVE if you're still too blinded by your hatred) Crying on the forums and demanding immediate changes or you'll quit the game = laughable to me. The game is still new and most of the PVP'ers whining are still impatient twits.

[CapitaFK]

If nothing else I suspect its easy to mark this argument as nonsense based on the assumption that the same types of folks play SWTOR as are interested in GW2. I would seriously love to see some data on time spent in varied activities by the average SWTOR player (particularly in relation to time spent on the forums).

 

Note: I plan to play GW2, I just don't expect it to be jesus part 2.

 

Well, SW:ToR has an excellent single player story. ANet would be hard pressed to top it, and I highly doubt they could.

 

But there's only so much you can do once you level every class in this game to 50 for their story, when another game does everything else better. To be fair, I believe WoW already does everything else better than SW:ToR aside from the story. Just that I'm tired of both.

[Lazorous]

For the record, I don't think GW2 will "kill" WoW. The only thing that will kill WoW is WoW itself. But I firmly believe GW2 will kill SW:ToR.

 

You're making the assumption that Swtor subscriptions are soley based on PvP players.

 

Without actual numbers to support this, it is no more accurate, or inaccurate, than any other speculation.

 

Keep in mind that Swtor was always advertised as PvE storyline content. It was rarely advertised as PvP in its marketing. For those who know this, understand PvP was an afterthought and they play mostly for the Star Wars franchise.

 

All 15 of my friends in this game play for PvE content, while I indulge more often in PvP. Just an example.

 

So to say a PvP game will destroy a PvE game is a pretty silly comparison. Apples and Oranges ring the bell?

[PostalTwinkie]

I stay because I will always hold hope. Hope that BioWare will open up its lines of communication to the players more. Hope that they will fix PvP, I can't see a company that is so effective at other aspects of games just letting it go. I stay because, while I ***** a lot, it is still fun to slap someone with a Lightsaber.

 

If I had to pick one thing to leave this game over it wouldn't be the PvP or PvE, but the terrible optimization and load times of this game.

[Lazorous]

How do you acquire gear? Does it involve skill? No. It simply doesn't. You can either grind out trading kills with the opposite faction until rank 60, or you can grind out WZ all day where you can eventually reach rank 60 just by joining and not doing anything else, win or lose.

 

And to this point, if it's that easy to acquire high lvl pvp gear, then it's safe to assume just about everyone can acquire it, correct?

 

So once everyone acquires said gear, everyone will be on relatively equal ground and therefore must rely on their class abilities, correct?

 

So the conclusion is, to acquire gear takes very little skill in this game. But once everyone acquires it, and easily so, then you can weed out the unskilled players on even ground.

[SWImara]

Well, SW:ToR has an excellent single player story. ANet would be hard pressed to top it, and I highly doubt they could.

 

But there's only so much you can do once you level every class in this game to 50 for their story, when another game does everything else better. To be fair, I believe WoW already does everything else better than SW:ToR aside from the story. Just that I'm tired of both.

Ok, so I hope it is understood that WoW (hate to bring it up) didn't become the #1 MMO by being the zomgbestMMOeva. Bringing lots of ideas from other games together, having a great IP, a huge customer base (Asia anyone?) and most importantly (imo) attending to a new player base is what did it. SWTOR definitely does not speak to the same player base as GW2, and I think that is the root of lots of the hullabaloo on the forums lately.

 

People who whine incessantly about "lack" of endgame, would actually rather play Vanguard (is that still out?) or L2 or FFXI or whatever grinding gamers play these days (forgive me I don't know what game this is). People who whine about worthless PvP likewise fall into a few categories, they may be old UO, DAoC or Shadowbane players sad for the lack of open world play and meaningful consequences. They may be esports WoW players seeing no "competitve play" in SWTOR and discounting it, they may be enraged by the impact of gear, they may just be incompetent... the list goes on.

 

My point is just that, the game is what it is, and for an MMO (I've been through lots of them, I'm sure no one cares to hear me list them) the pace of updates and fixes particularly in PvP is friggin stunning. These are the things that keep me here, I personally think Star Wars is about the lamest setting ever written, but the new approach to MMOs has caught my attention and I enjoy the **** out of it.

 

Unfortunately your mileage may vary.

[CapitaFK]

Not true in the slightest. Let's be honest here, most MMO players are terrible players. They are the bottom of the barrel in skill level. As a person who plays RTS, FPS, MMOs, Action games etc, etc, I notice I am significantly more skilled than the average "I just play MMOs" player. My Juggernaut has 2 pieces of Champ gear. A chest and offhand. In a 1 v 1 fight, as long as I can get that fight into a corner where no other player gets involved, I will beat any class at any gear level. A full BM geared person has a 15% bonus across 3 stats to a freshly geared 50. They take 15% less damage, do 15% more damage and 15% more healing from Expertise. I am, on average, more than 15% better than most pure MMO players due to their lack of experience in other, harder genre of game.

I've played in many professional tournaments for FPS and MOBA games. A Battlemaster will beat me 10/10 times no matter how much better of a player I am than they are. Just like in WoW, my S2, S3, S4, S5 Gladiator Hunter would beat any blue geared new 60, 70, or 80 without trying half as hard against an equally geared person. You can't argue this. Mathematics will disagree with you. If you do, I'd like for you to prove it.

 

Dawn of War is a better RTS than SC2, but SC2 is the E-sport.

 

Mortal Kombat is the more fun fighting game, but Street Fighter is the one that gets all the tournaments.

 

Halo gets more tournaments than most other FPS games, second would probably be CoD.

 

Yet are Halo and CoD the best shooters? No.

 

Being an E-sport usually means you're the less fun game.

Arguing that I'm being subjective when all of this is subjective. E-Sports are based on popularity. Popularity equals success. That's basic economics. I hate CoD and I'm a BF fanboy, but there's no refuting CoD sells far more copies than BF does.

[DarthOvertone]

I canceled but have a few months left, since I paid 6 month sub

 

What is your excuse?

 

Not surprised at all that carebear PvPers have canceled now that they have to actually kill other players in Ilum to complete their dailies and compete against on level opponents in the WZ 50s brackets.

 

Clownz that rushed to 50 and BM quickly quitting after the 1.1 changes a coincidence it is not. Just like all the 1337 Ops/Scoundrel players that disappeared after their opener got nerfed.

 

lulz