ANALYSIS: Scoundrel is the Worst Class in the Game at Everything

[Ich_Bin]

Thread complaining about shadow DPS.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=266966

 

You know what they say. The grass is always greener on the other side.

 

Well you only need to look at the numbers of players playing each class right now. Scoundrel/Operative is at the very bottom of the list. Concealment/Scrapper is almost non existent on my server anymore (I have not seen another scrapper Scoundrel in my Warzones for almost a week now, and yes I did play frequently)

[TyrantOfNordberg]

Well you only need to look at the numbers of players playing each class right now. Scoundrel/Operative is at the very bottom of the list. Concealment/Scrapper is almost non existent on my server anymore (I have not seen another scrapper Scoundrel in my Warzones for almost a week now, and yes I did play frequently)

 

You can't do that. Every one and their dog knew that there would be way more force users than tech users. Using population size is not a good way to look at balance in this case.

[Darthcrush]

Just shut up and play the game. Edited February 29, 2012 by Darthcrush

[Ich_Bin]

You can't do that. Every one and their dog knew that there would be way more force users than tech users. Using population size is not a good way to look at balance in this case.

So how do you explain that there are:

- LOTS of Commandos/Mercenaries

- LOTS of Vanguards/Powertechs

- A reasonable amount of Gunslingers/Snipers (numbers increasing every day)

- Very few Scoundrels/Operatives (numbers decreasing every day, the majority specced as healers)

 

All of those classes are tech users. And somehow are not only Operatives/Scoundrels the least popular class but also they are getting less and less popular.

 

 

And yes, I can do that. Population size has always been the best way of looking at class balances in MMOGs. Not immediately after release, but a few weeks/months into the game you can really use those numbers as evidence of which class is best.

People like to feel powerful and useful while playing videogames. So they play the most powerful and useful classes and avoid playing a weak class. That is just how it is.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[TyrantOfNordberg]

So how do you explain that there are:

- LOTS of Commandos/Mercenaries

- LOTS of Vanguards/Powertechs

- A reasonable amount of Gunslingers/Snipers (numbers increasing every day)

- Very few Scoundrels/Operatives (numbers decreasing every day, the majority specced as healers)

 

All of those classes are tech users. And somehow are not only Operatives/Scoundrels the least popular class but also they are getting less and less popular.

 

And yes, I can do that. Population size has always been the best way of looking at class balances in MMOGs. Not immediately after release, but a few weeks/months into the game you can really use those numbers as evidence of which class is best.

People like to feel powerful and useful while playing videogames. So they play the most powerful and useful classes and avoid playing a weak class. That is just how it is.

 

I don't understand you saying lots of troopers and BH. I could log in right now and see that the majority of players playing are a jedi class.

 

Yes the scoundrel is the least popular but I don't believe that has anything to do with balance. Commando's carry around a freaking ASSAULT CANNON. Vanguards are tanks and some people like to play that way. Bounty Hunters are Jango/Boba Fett (I do believe they are most popular character outside of force users).

 

I'd say there are more casual players playing this game then hardcore gamers. As such, these casual players won't necessarily play the best class in the game. They are going to play the game that they think seems the coolest not the most powerful. Saying "So they play the most powerful and useful classes and avoid playing a weak class. That is just how it is" would be true for any game EXCEPT for Star Wars. If in fact the force user classes were obviously the weakest, there would still be an overwhelming amount of force users. THAT is just how it is.

Edited March 1, 2012 by TyrantOfNordberg

[Ich_Bin]

I don't understand you saying lots of troopers and BH. I could log in right now and see that the majority of players playing are a jedi class.

 

Yes the scoundrel is the least popular but I don't believe that has anything to do with balance. Commando's carry around a freaking ASSAULT CANNON. Vanguards are tanks and some people like to play that way. Bounty Hunters are Jango/Boba Fett (I do believe they are most popular character outside of force users).

 

I'd say there are more casual players playing this game then hardcore gamers. As such, these casual players won't necessarily play the best class in the game. They are going to play the game that they think seems the coolest not the most powerful. Saying "So they play the most powerful and useful classes and avoid playing a weak class. That is just how it is" would be true for any game EXCEPT for Star Wars. If in fact the force user classes were obviously the weakest, there would still be an overwhelming amount of force users. THAT is just how it is.

 

I am not talking about the casual players that play their solo story up to 50 and then reroll. I talk about endgame content playing players.

 

If you want to talk about the class balances between lvl 1-49 we have no basis for a reasonable discussion.

 

 

 

"Bounty Hunters are Jango/Boba Fett (I do believe they are most popular character outside of force users)."

<-- Scoundrels are freaking HAN SOLO.

Have there ever been any Gunslingers in the movies? No? Then why are they more popular than Scoundrels?

Have there been any Troopers of importance in the movies? No? Then why are they FAR more popular than Scoundrels?

I am sorry but your arguments really make no sense to me.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Sookster]

I am on your server, I routinely put up close to 700K, especially in voidstar and win against the best premades on the server (when Praxis actually runs premades). The best Imp groups run almost exclusively DPS-only builds, so that amount of healing is to be expected. Sorry, you are wrong.

 

Well actually you are right to some degree, my biggest healing games are in PUGs, but I can't remember the last time I fought Jokers et al and didn't have 500K+ in Voidstar. Your 200K quote is just false.

 

Most good premades aren't even going to let the other team get many kills, let alone accomplish much damage, if I'm on a team with a good premade, my total healing is very low because they know who and how to focus fire and the enemy isn't given a chance to deal damage.

[TyrantOfNordberg]

I am not talking about the casual players that play their solo story up to 50 and then reroll. I talk about endgame content playing players.

 

If you want to talk about the class balances between lvl 1-49 we have no basis for a reasonable discussion.

 

 

 

"Bounty Hunters are Jango/Boba Fett (I do believe they are most popular character outside of force users)."

<-- Scoundrels are freaking HAN SOLO.

Have there ever been any Gunslingers in the movies? No? Then why are they more popular than Scoundrels?

Have there been any Troopers of importance in the movies? No? Then why are they FAR more popular than Scoundrels?

I am sorry but your arguments really make no sense to me.

 

sorry to break it to you but endgame is really pointless. All that farming for the gear and then as soon as new expansion its all obsolete. Yes end game is fun but is it for fun then starting another character? Opinions would differ I suppose. However, like I said the casual players are the majority and endgamers are in the minority.

 

I do not understand how my argument was portrayed as game balance for lv's between 1-49. In fact my argument was about game balance not having to do with the population size between the different classes.

 

Scoundrels are Han Solo I do agree with that. I do like Han Solo more then Jango/Boba but this feeling is not shared by the majority of people.

 

The trooper is more a symbol not necassarily a character. The trooper is just a normal guy who has the desire to protect what he loves against people who can fling lightning out of their hand and choke people with their mind without using special powers of his own. People respond to that more than the smuggler.

 

It makes sense my arguments make no sense to you. You live your life with ignorance which is so common on these forums.This game is more than "X class is OP, nerf X" and "Y is UP, Buff Y". I do want this game as balanced as possible but this has relatively nothing to do with class distribution.

[dtongwa]

What gamers do you know pick their characters without worrying about whether the class is good? Or is it your belief that mostly the people playing this game are non-gamers? I know lots of non-gamers, but none who are playing this game. I don't know if there is a class imbalance or not, but if there is I really doubt it is explained by the emotional preferences of people who don't really game but just picked this one up in a Star Wars induced haze at their suburban Wal-mart. And throwing around allegations of ignorance for not accepting your fanciful sociological hypothesis on the appeal of the Trooper class to your average Joe Six-pack... well that is just bold. Edited March 1, 2012 by dtongwa

[TyrantOfNordberg]

I'm saying that it is ignorant that people think other people solely pick a class based on whether or not they are OP. I admit that the trooper thing is a stretch but fairly accurate as a dev described the trooper to this effect in an interview. Forgive me for not having a link off hand... perhaps someone would want to help with this.

 

You sound like I associate non-gamers with casual gamers. This is not the case. I never once made reference to non-gamers.

 

anyways gratz to people for derailing me from my original point. In my first post was a link to a thread in the jedi shadow forum. To summarize, jedi shadows want a scoundrels burst dps. like I said "the grass is always greener..."

Edited March 1, 2012 by TyrantOfNordberg

[Powderhorn]

Filthy force users want everything, because they're used to being fed with a silver spoon. Rise up against the oppression, tech users!

[Ich_Bin]

I'm saying that it is ignorant that people think other people solely pick a class based on whether or not they are OP. I admit that the trooper thing is a stretch but fairly accurate as a dev described the trooper to this effect in an interview. Forgive me for not having a link off hand... perhaps someone would want to help with this.

 

You sound like I associate non-gamers with casual gamers. This is not the case. I never once made reference to non-gamers.

 

anyways gratz to people for derailing me from my original point. In my first post was a link to a thread in the jedi shadow forum. To summarize, jedi shadows want a scoundrels burst dps. like I said "the grass is always greener..."

 

You mean we are derailing from your original post which was in fact derailing from this thread? Sorry about that

 

I will say it again: The stronger a class is the more people will play it. The weaker a class is the fewer people will play it.

The drastic decrease in numbers that is happening to DD Scoundrels (even though it already was the least populated class before) right now is no coincidence but merely shows how bad this class is doing in PvP and PvE right now.

Bioware tried to create a class with no team based utility but with a lot of burst damage. That didn't work out, so they took away most of the burst and gave nothing in return. The result is just obvious.

Play a Scoundrel (lvl 50) against a good team in Huttball and you will know what I am talking about.

[pinkink]

You mean we are derailing from your original post which was in fact derailing from this thread? Sorry about that

 

I will say it again: The stronger a class is the more people will play it. The weaker a class is the fewer people will play it.

The drastic decrease in numbers that is happening to DD Scoundrels (even though it already was the least populated class before) right now is no coincidence but merely shows how bad this class is doing in PvP and PvE right now.

Bioware tried to create a class with no team based utility but with a lot of burst damage. That didn't work out, so they took away most of the burst and gave nothing in return. The result is just obvious.

Play a Scoundrel (lvl 50) against a good team in Huttball and you will know what I am talking about.

 

no man its just shows that most players rather spam one skill and get the result, then try use their brain.

 

And stop bringing Huttball in argument its absolutely failed WZ.

 

Scoundrel DD gives u challenge if u pass it u will have much greater return, then with any other class.

 

Our class dont bring the full satisfaction till u pass 30 lvl brackets, and due to repetitiveness of most mission and general boredom in the game after that lvl lots of people give up.

 

We dont have a single spamble skill, like sorcs or BH, we need to get close and personal with our pray, for most of SW players its just to much to handle.

[Xaearth]

Scoundrel DD gives u challenge if u pass it u will have much greater return, then with any other class.

 

Uh... No, it doesn't.

 

You're gimping yourself to be at best equivalent to other classes in the same role (burst, as there's no other role that you can even come close to competing with).

And that's if you ignore the fact that your utility and group synergy is utterly suck.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Xaearth

[Ich_Bin]

And stop bringing Huttball in argument its absolutely failed WZ.

 

I should stop bringing it into the argument because it is inconvenient for you?

 

Huttball is the most played warzone in this game, on some servers it is played over 80% of the time. It is the biggest part of PvP right now so it HAS to be discussed when you are talking about class balances.

[Fleshsaber]

couple of things:

 

1. judging a class's effectiveness by the number of players playing it is almost as retarded as saying pop music is the greatest, most ingenious music ever because lots of people listen to it. i played a hunter in lotro, by far the most populous class in the game at one point and also one of most gimped classes, if not THE most gimped class (capt's may have argued with me on this point ). there are many reasons people chose one class over another, and some of those reasons have nothing whatsoever to do with the class being op or gimped.

 

2. a scoundrel and myself (hybrid tank/dps guardian) fought off 4 imps the other night and not only did the scoundrel keep both of us healed so well that even with all 4 focusing one, then the other of us, that neither of us dropped below 3/4 health, but we killed all 4 with very little problem (neither of us is in BM, or even full chmp for that matter). so, as much as i'd hate to say it, becuase it always rubbed me the wrong way when it was said on the warhammer forums, i'm think this is a clear case of l2p. if you're having a rough time with the scoundrel, maybe try the sage or the bh, not all classes are going to be easy to roflstomp with.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Fleshsaber

[JackBurden]

no man its just shows that most players rather spam one skill and get the result, then try use their brain.

 

And stop bringing Huttball in argument its absolutely failed WZ.

 

Scoundrel DD gives u challenge if u pass it u will have much greater return, then with any other class.

 

That's not quite true. Scoundrel DD doesn't give you a challenge, Sentinel does. And there are lots of people who switched to Sentinels after recognizing their power. There are lots of Sentinels and Marauders overall in the game and in every Warzone. And that's considering that Sentinel is one of the hardest classes to master.

 

Scoundrel is WAY easier to play, but it's not appealing to players who want to work at their best in PvP, because working at their best as Scoundrels will net them worse results than the same effort as any other DD class. Yes, ANY class. Just compare your own results with results of equally geared players whom you team in WZs with, you'll notice that fast enough.

 

What we have now is not people's problem, it's the class problem. And I sincerely hope something will be done about it, because I like my Scoundrel and I enjoy playing him.

Edited March 1, 2012 by JackBurden

[pinkink]

I should stop bringing it into the argument because it is inconvenient for you?

 

Huttball is the most played warzone in this game, on some servers it is played over 80% of the time. It is the biggest part of PvP right now so it HAS to be discussed when you are talking about class balances.

 

well low pop servers play it 80% of a time cause of imbalance of fraction. i got it 1 in 5 most often just quitting it. If u can score 2-3 ball while half of opposite team waiting to be allowed to play that a bad design.

[pinkink]

That's not quite true. Scoundrel DD doesn't give you a challenge, Sentinel does. And there are lots of people who switched to Sentinels after recognizing their power. There are lots of Sentinels and Marauders overall in the game and in every Warzone. And that's considering that Sentinel is one of the hardest classes to master.

 

Scoundrel is WAY easier to play, but it's not appealing to players who want to work at their best in PvP, because working at their best as Scoundrels will net them worse results than the same effort as any other DD class. Yes, ANY class. Just compare your own results with results of equally geared players whom you team in WZs with, you'll notice that fast enough.

 

What we have now is not people's problem, it's the class problem. And I sincerely hope something will be done about it, because I like my Scoundrel and I enjoy playing him.

 

cant tell never played sentinel.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=266966 shadows crying

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=235793 snipers crying

 

Do a "ComeTogether Party" will be interesting to c)))

 

-we a worst said shadow

-no we r the worst said scoundrel

-no u r good u got stealth, i`m the worst said sniper

 

LOL

[pinkink]

Uh... No, it doesn't.

 

You're gimping yourself to be at best equivalent to other classes in the same role (burst, as there's no other role that you can even come close to competing with).

And that's if you ignore the fact that your utility and group synergy is utterly suck.[/QUO

 

So disabling healers and dps (depending on situation) , delaying turret rush is not a group synergy?

 

What is the role of Scoundrel dps ?

[Xaearth]

So disabling healers and dps (depending on situation) , delaying turret rush is not a group synergy?

 

Disabling healers and dps?

What, you mean opening on them with a stun-lock and hoping they aren't skilled enough to either pop their defensive cooldowns or punt/cc you and just casually walk away? And that their teammates are blind enough to let you get away with it?

 

That's like saying Charlie Brown would be one hell of a kicker if Lucy didn't suck at holding the ball still.

 

The other classes can do it better, be it by longer range CC/interrupts, better ability to stick to their target, better survivability, etc. On top of that, those classes have better utility, more fluid kits, and some semblance of group synergy beyond the ninja-Rambo karate style.

 

What is the role of Scoundrel dps ?

 

That's the point. They bring absolutely nothing another class couldn't do as well if not better and with more practical utility.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Xaearth

[TyrantOfNordberg]

You mean we are derailing from your original post which was in fact derailing from this thread? Sorry about that

 

I will say it again: The stronger a class is the more people will play it. The weaker a class is the fewer people will play it.

The drastic decrease in numbers that is happening to DD Scoundrels (even though it already was the least populated class before) right now is no coincidence but merely shows how bad this class is doing in PvP and PvE right now.

Bioware tried to create a class with no team based utility but with a lot of burst damage. That didn't work out, so they took away most of the burst and gave nothing in return. The result is just obvious.

Play a Scoundrel (lvl 50) against a good team in Huttball and you will know what I am talking about.

lol wut? The whole point of this thread is that scoundrels are the worst at everything. Suddenly I bring in another thread that says contrary to that with Scoundrels having much better burst DPS than shadows. Explain to me how that is derailing a thread. The post was directly responding to the issue of this thread.

 

And this is the last time I will say this. This is a Star Wars game. Carrying around a glowstick or two is just as big factor if not a bigger factor in most peoples mind then balance. You can not ignore this fact. When I first started playing I did choose the Han Solo character solely for the reason that it is the Han Solo character. I did not care whether they were OP or UP. I would play that character as my main no matter what. I can not be the only person who did this.

 

In WoW, Frost mages seemed to be the most OP class in the game and this view was shared by a huge majority of people. And not just a little OP, WAY OP. By your logic all players would have a frost mage. Yet "oddly" this is not the case as there was still good diversity in the classes.

 

Anyways I'm about done with this thread. It is quite obvious that minds will not be changed so I don't why I even tried bothering.

Edited March 1, 2012 by TyrantOfNordberg

[blarse]

 

2. a scoundrel and myself (hybrid tank/dps guardian) fought off 4 imps the other night and not only did the scoundrel keep both of us healed so well that even with all 4 focusing one, then the other of us, that neither of us dropped below 3/4 health, but we killed all 4 with very little problem (neither of us is in BM, or even full chmp for that matter). so, as much as i'd hate to say it, becuase it always rubbed me the wrong way when it was said on the warhammer forums, i'm think this is a clear case of l2p. if you're having a rough time with the scoundrel, maybe try the sage or the bh, not all classes are going to be easy to roflstomp with.

 

Killing 4 terrible players does not indicate that the scoundrel healing class is fine. Check the healer forums, there is a ton of math there showing that Sawbones is lagging behind by a large margin.

[Xaearth]

lol wut? The whole point of this thread is that scoundrels are the worst at everything. Suddenly I bring in another thread that says contrary to that with Scoundrels having much better burst DPS than shadows. Explain to me how that is derailing a thread. The post was directly responding to the issue of this thread.

 

Just because your average Shadow/Assassin can't pull off similar burst to a Scoundrel/Operative, doesn't mean they don't have the potential.

 

The very fact that the majority of Shadow/Assassin players believe their stealth dps tree sucks makes it glaringly obvious.

 

PS: I main a Deception Assassin.

[Ich_Bin]

well low pop servers play it 80% of a time cause of imbalance of fraction. i got it 1 in 5 most often just quitting it. If u can score 2-3 ball while half of opposite team waiting to be allowed to play that a bad design.

 

Think about your logic on this. First you are taking Huttball (by far our weakest warzone) completely out of the equation and then say that while Scoundrels have a harder time than most classes (in Alderaan and Voidstar) they can still do fine. And you use that as an argument AGAINST Scoundrels being the weakest class right now?

 

Huttball makes up by far the most part of endgame pvp. So it is a very important factor in class balance. If you want to leave every Huttball match that you get set in that is fine by me. But you should not expect other Scoundrels/Operatives to just do the same and stop complaining. Noone should feel like a burden to their team in ANY of the warzones. But that's what we are right now in Huttball.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Ich_Bin