The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

[Lormif]

Oh so sorry, it's a 12s cooldown not a 15s. Clearly that makes all the difference in the world.

 

I do in fact know what force shroud does. I'm pretty sure you don't get that it has a 60 second cooldown, make it 20s and you'd have somewhat of a grounds to mention it.

 

I'm pretty sure the talent you have in mind is stealth speed, not normal speed. I know for a fact that it's 5 points into Deception which odds are, you won't be. After the nerf to hybrid assassin specs Deception is unplayably squishy except against truly terrible people who just ignore you.

 

BTW, Marauders have 15% movespeed always on. Even that is not nearly enough, so you pretty much can stop crying about it.

 

Wait, what, you want a 20 second remove all effects and make you immune to all new force based attacks for 3 seconds? In addition to your already 2m remove all CC? wow, that takes balls.

[sithgrizley]

i said on average, and excuse me for messing up on 1 skill, so instead of 9s it's it's 10.5s OH NO.

 

let's just say it's 50% crit chance how much damage do you think that is? do you think they dont pump out that kind of dps?

 

yes the reason the sorc bubble isnt' on a longer cooldown is because it's NOT AS GOOD....

and you dont even know what your own class does and you call me ignorant? seriously?

 

No, you've quite proven you're completely ignorant. I don't have to call you a thing.

 

Even assuming a 50% crit chance, which by the way massive, we would get...

 

Normal hit 1200 x .5 + Crit hit 3,000 x .5 = 2,100.

 

In 2 globals you average 4200 damage. Not bad, it's at least enough to drop a sorcs shield...

 

Now, you want to unload. K, that's a good 1200 damage a second before mitigation, and takes 3 seconds.

 

Now you're 4 globals in and have done 7,800ish maybe.

 

That's good, but a very far cry from your claim of 12k in 4 globals or whatever it was you dribbled about.

 

PS. Railshot and Heatseaker both do junk damage without 4+ TMs first. Each TM provides a buff to the next Railshot and HS. That's why Merc lead off with TM.

[shaidarlol]

Oh so sorry, it's a 12s cooldown not a 15s. Clearly that makes all the difference in the world.

 

I do in fact know what force shroud does. I'm pretty sure you don't get that it has a 60 second cooldown, make it 20s and you'd have somewhat of a grounds to mention it.

 

I'm pretty sure the talent you have in mind is stealth speed, not normal speed. I know for a fact that it's 5 points into Deception which odds are, you won't be. After the nerf to hybrid assassin specs Deception is unplayably squishy except against truly terrible people who just ignore you.

 

BTW, Marauders have 15% movespeed always on. Even that is not nearly enough, so you pretty much can stop crying about it.

 

yea you want immunity to everything for 3s every 20s i get you,

 

deception is the best dps tree for assassin, i'm sorry you aren't playing it or choose not to but it's the best, no one is complaining about the 31 lightning right? because everyone plays that crap spec? just because you choose not to play the best spec doesn't make it invalid.

 

and yes for your information it is 15% movement speed which applies to stealth and out of stealth. sorry that isn't enough for you. lol 2nd tier into deception must be hard to get even for the other specs amirite?

 

and no one is crying over 15% movement speed btw, because most sorcs believe they are balanced. i am not calling for nerfs unlike you when you don't even understand how to play your own AC.

 

"do i kick the lightning or the heal" do you kick the spell that's basically the gateway to do even more dmg or kick the heal that takes basically 2 gcds to cast and only heals for maybe 1 gcd worth of your damage? stop being a re re

[Varicite]

So which is it? Kick the heal or kick the lightning? It's pick one and live with the other.

 

Kick one and stun the other?

 

Or kick one and simply outdamage the other?

 

You can't lay down 2k damage in 3 seconds?

 

This isn't even a choice, you interrupt Force Lightning/TKT ALWAYS against a hybrid. Period.

[sithgrizley]

well since it isn't obvious enough to you, i can spell it out for you, you ignore the heal, because in 3s you'll do more damage then they can heal anyways. get it? 3s heal that can maybe crit for 3.5k or melee can do 2 globals and probably crit for about that amount each time?

 

is math really that hard?

 

Apparently you struggle with it, so I will go with yes?

 

Even should you outdamage their heal, they are ticking down the clock to the next knockback/root and shield. If it comes to a wash in damage they pull far ahead as the long the fight goes the more it favors them. A complete lack of resource management a TON of great survivability on short cooldowns has something to do with that.

[sithgrizley]

Wait, what, you want a 20 second remove all effects and make you immune to all new force based attacks for 3 seconds? In addition to your already 2m remove all CC? wow, that takes balls.

 

Yes, clearly I think that's the case. The fact that I said THEN YOU WOULD HAVE A GROUNDS TO MENTION IT IN YOUR WHINE POST means that I think it would be totally balanced.

[Lormif]

Apparently you struggle with it, so I will go with yes?

 

Even should you outdamage their heal, they are ticking down the clock to the next knockback/root and shield. If it comes to a wash in damage they pull far ahead as the long the fight goes the more it favors them. A complete lack of resource management a TON of great survivability on short cooldowns has something to do with that.

 

if it comes down to a wash, you need better gear/skill. At an average of say 2800 a heal, in about 5 seconds, you better be able to out damage that.

[shaidarlol]

No, you've quite proven you're completely ignorant. I don't have to call you a thing.

 

Even assuming a 50% crit chance, which by the way massive, we would get...

 

Normal hit 1200 x .5 + Crit hit 3,000 x .5 = 2,100.

 

In 2 globals you average 4200 damage. Not bad, it's at least enough to drop a sorcs shield...

 

Now, you want to unload. K, that's a good 1200 damage a second before mitigation, and takes 3 seconds.

 

Now you're 4 globals in and have done 7,800ish maybe.

 

That's good, but a very far cry from your claim of 12k in 4 globals or whatever it was you dribbled about.

 

PS. Railshot and Heatseaker both do junk damage without 4+ TMs first. Each TM provides a buff to the next Railshot and HS. That's why Merc lead off with TM.

 

good thing to know that railshot and heatseeker doesn't do much without tm, i guess that's why they save it for after tm, obvious is obvious.

 

you can also add that each tracer missile fired after the 1st deals more damage because of the debuff. so yes i can say a normal correct/smart rotation of 3x tm -> heat seeker -> unload -> railshot will do considerably more damage than 12k and the span is only 10.5s not 12s like the original poster said.

 

and yes it's tm 3x not 4+ like you falsely believe

[Varicite]

Apparently you struggle with it, so I will go with yes?

 

Even should you outdamage their heal, they are ticking down the clock to the next knockback/root and shield. If it comes to a wash in damage they pull far ahead as the long the fight goes the more it favors them. A complete lack of resource management a TON of great survivability on short cooldowns has something to do with that.

 

It never comes to a wash in damage if there is any remotely decent melee class beside a Sorc.

 

It comes down to, all of your abilities are available, while they have 1 that can actually hurt you for 2-3k on a 15 sec cd.

 

I'm not even answering you anymore, you don't even have the slightest clue what you're talking about, and here you are, asking for nerfs.

 

You are the people I've been talking about for 40 pages.

[Tumri]

Wow lots of new posts while I was away. I'll respond to the main points raised.

 

1. "Sorcerers are easily countered by interrupts."

 

No, they aren't. You can interrupt Force Lightning but that doesn't mean they sit there doing nothing. If you get interrupted and don't have two instants to use for the next two GCDs then use a knockback or force slow to get away. If you choose to knockback enjoy that free Dark Infusion you get to cast without taking and damage or getting pushbacks during the cast. If you choose to force slow enjoy that distance you created and be happy you still have your knock back available.

 

What most of the posts around page 80 seem to be about is "Interrupt Force Lightning and they can't do ANYTHING!" when that's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. The entire point of the thread is how much control they have. How you guys could so easily ignore the enormous amount of CC I've been talking about for the past 80 pages is beyond me. Yes interrupts counter their damage to an extent. Guess what? Sorcerers counter melee be using a CC. The thread spells out exactly what a Sorcerer can do. The argument I've been making since the beginning is that they have too many ways to counter anything anyone else does to them. Other classes have an interrupt, a slow, and maybe a stun to work with against a Sorcerer. A Sorcerer can CC or kite when interrupted, cleanse/sprint the slow and apply their own slow, and simply LOL at the stun when their bubble insta-mezzes their attacker.

 

One of the most important factors you guys aren't even attempting to address is the fact that a Sorcerer is exponentially more effective in anything bigger than a 1v1 PvP scenario, which is everything but Duels in this game. A PT/Marauder/Juggernaut/etc. have a pretty decent chance of killing a Sorcerer 1v1. They have absolutely no chance in a group v. group scenario. A small skirmish of 2 sorcerers and 1 of X class against 1 sorcerer and 2 of X class(or multiple classes) is always in favor of the 2 sorcerers. In an actual Warzone there aren't all that many 1v1 situations unless you actively look to stay away from objectives and fight people that have freshly spawned and heading somewhere else.

 

Sorcerers are also the best class in the game when 2v1. A Sorcerer that uses his CCs and escapes will simply not die to two people focusing him unless he chooses to stay and fight to the end. There is no way to gank a Sorcerer that isn't terrible. No other class enjoys this kind of immunity to unfavorable fights. You could make a case for stealth classes but AoE and DoTs prevent them from using their escape effectively. There is no such restriction for a Sorcerer's ability to escape.

 

2. The last past has been about Sorcerers never having a chance to heal. This is untrue. A Sorcerer that has sucessfully used a slow, dash, KB, etc(Too many to list) and gotten an LoS advantage he should be casting a Dark Infusion to gain an advantage while the enemy cannot do anything about it. It happens all the time. A Sorcerer that casts a heal while actively engaged with an enemy is an idiot. A Sorcerer that uses his tools to allow him to heal when temporarily safe from pushback and interrupts is intelligent.

 

Edit: lol a page has gone by while I was typing.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri

[shaidarlol]

Apparently you struggle with it, so I will go with yes?

 

Even should you outdamage their heal, they are ticking down the clock to the next knockback/root and shield. If it comes to a wash in damage they pull far ahead as the long the fight goes the more it favors them. A complete lack of resource management a TON of great survivability on short cooldowns has something to do with that.

 

oh yes forgot you like use those situations where sorc has every cd, and you don't...

stop kidding yourself man you are just bad at this game, even if sorcs get nerfed you personally will still get rofl stomped on a daily basis.

 

i hope for sorc nerfs at this point just so i can see you post about how the "nerf" isn't enough.

[Lormif]

Wow lots of new posts while I was away. I'll respond to the main points raised.

 

1. "Sorcerers are easily countered by interrupts."

 

No, they aren't. You can interrupt Force Lightning but that doesn't mean they sit there doing nothing. If you get interrupted and don't have two instants to use for the next two GCDs then use a knockback or force slow to get away. If you choose to knockback enjoy that free Dark Infusion you get to cast without taking and damage or getting pushbacks during the cast. If you choose to force slow enjoy that distance you created and be happy you still have your knock back available.

 

What most of the posts around page 80 seem to be about is "Interrupt Force Lightning and they can't do ANYTHING!" when that's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. The entire point of the thread is how much control they have. How you guys could so easily ignore the enormous amount of CC I've been talking about for the past 80 pages is beyond me. Yes interrupts counter their damage to an extent. Guess what? Sorcerers counter melee be using a CC. The thread spells out exactly what a Sorcerer can do. The argument I've been making since the beginning is that they have too many ways to counter anything anyone else does to them. Other classes have an interrupt, a slow, and maybe a stun to work with against a Sorcerer. A Sorcerer can CC or kite when interrupted, cleanse/sprint the slow and apply their own slow, and simply LOL at the stun when their bubble insta-mezzes their attacker.

 

One of the most important factors you guys aren't even attempting to address is the fact that a Sorcerer is exponentially more effective in anything bigger than a 1v1 PvP scenario, which is everything but Duels in this game. A PT/Marauder/Juggernaut/etc. have a pretty decent chance of killing a Sorcerer 1v1. They have absolutely no chance in a group v. group scenario. A small skirmish of 2 sorcerers and 1 of X class against 1 sorcerer and 2 of X class(or multiple classes) is always in favor of the 2 sorcerers. In an actual Warzone there aren't all that many 1v1 situations unless you actively look to stay away from objectives and fight people that have freshly spawned and heading somewhere else.

 

Sorcerers are also the best class in the game when 2v1. A Sorcerer that uses his CCs and escapes will simply not die to two people focusing him unless he chooses to stay and fight to the end. There is no way to gank a Sorcerer that isn't terrible. No other class enjoys this kind of immunity to unfavorable fights. You could make a case for stealth classes but AoE and DoTs prevent them from using their escape effectively. There is no such restriction for a Sorcerer's ability to escape.

 

2. The last past has been about Sorcerers never having a chance to heal. This is untrue. A Sorcerer that has sucessfully used a slow, dash, KB, etc(Too many to list) and gotten an LoS advantage he should be casting a Dark Infusion to gain an advantage while the enemy cannot do anything about it. It happens all the time. A Sorcerer that casts a heal while actively engaged with an enemy is an idiot. A Sorcerer that uses his tools to allow him to heal when temporarily safe from pushback and interrupts is intelligent.

 

Edit: lol 2 pages have gone by while I was typing.

 

 

So what it all boils down to if you cant get a free kill. You interrupt them so they run away and heal, you dont and YOU apparently have a hard time killing them.

[Varicite]

Wow lots of new posts while I was away. I'll respond to the main points raised.

 

1. "Sorcerers are easily countered by interrupts."

 

No, they aren't. You can interrupt Force Lightning but that doesn't mean they sit there doing nothing. If you get interrupted and don't have two instants to use for the next two GCDs then use a knockback or force slow to get away. If you choose to knockback enjoy that free Dark Infusion you get to cast without taking and damage or getting pushbacks during the cast. If you choose to force slow enjoy that distance you created and be happy you still have your knock back available.

 

What most of the posts around page 80 seem to be about is "Interrupt Force Lightning and they can't do ANYTHING!" when that's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. The entire point of the thread is how much control they have. How you guys could so easily ignore the enormous amount of CC I've been talking about for the past 80 pages is beyond me. Yes interrupts counter their damage to an extent. Guess what? Sorcerers counter melee be using a CC. The thread spells out exactly what a Sorcerer can do. The argument I've been making since the beginning is that they have too many ways to counter anything anyone else does to them. Other classes have an interrupt, a slow, and maybe a stun to work with against a Sorcerer. A Sorcerer can CC or kite when interrupted, cleanse/sprint the slow and apply their own slow, and simply LOL at the stun when their bubble insta-mezzes their attacker.

 

One of the most important factors you guys aren't even attempting to address is the fact that a Sorcerer is exponentially more effective in anything bigger than a 1v1 PvP scenario, which is everything but Duels in this game. A PT/Marauder/Juggernaut/etc. have a pretty decent chance of killing a Sorcerer 1v1. They have absolutely no chance in a group v. group scenario. A small skirmish of 2 sorcerers and 1 of X class against 1 sorcerer and 2 of X class(or multiple classes) is always in favor of the 2 sorcerers. In an actual Warzone there aren't all that many 1v1 situations unless you actively look to stay away from objectives and fight people that have freshly spawned and heading somewhere else.

 

Sorcerers are also the best class in the game when 2v1. A Sorcerer that uses his CCs and escapes will simply not die to two people focusing him unless he chooses to stay and fight to the end. There is no way to gank a Sorcerer that isn't terrible. No other class enjoys this kind of immunity to unfavorable fights. You could make a case for stealth classes but AoE and DoTs prevent them from using their escape effectively. There is no such restriction for a Sorcerer's ability to escape.

 

2. The last past has been about Sorcerers never having a chance to heal. This is untrue. A Sorcerer that has sucessfully used a slow, dash, KB, etc(Too many to list) and gotten an LoS advantage he should be casting a Dark Infusion to gain an advantage while the enemy cannot do anything about it. It happens all the time. A Sorcerer that casts a heal while actively engaged with an enemy is an idiot. A Sorcerer that uses his tools to allow him to heal when temporarily safe from pushback and interrupts is intelligent.

 

Edit: lol a page has gone by while I was typing.

 

Except that you've already proven handily that you have no idea how the mechanics of these abilities work, or their effect on Resolve.

 

Your lies have already been thoroughly debunked. Quit spreading misinformation.

 

lol, 2 people can't kill 1 hybrid Sorc. Please.

[Tumri]

So what it all boils down to if you cant get a free kill. You interrupt them so they run away and heal, you dont and YOU apparently have a hard time killing them.

 

What it boils down to is that with the spec in the OP a Sorcerer gains so many tools that there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to them. Even if you play perfectly they simply have more buttons to counter your buttons. It's that no matter what someone does to counter a hybrid CC Sorcerer they have more to counter the counter.

[shaidarlol]

So what it all boils down to if you cant get a free kill. You interrupt them so they run away and heal, you dont and YOU apparently have a hard time killing them.

 

no man, he also mentions that sorcs are fine 1v1 but when there's more it's a problem, so the answer is nerf them so they are fair when it's XvX, but when it's 1v1 they just get pooped on.

[Lormif]

What it boils down to is that with the spec in the OP a Sorcerer gains so many tools that there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to them. Even if you play perfectly they simply have more buttons to counter your buttons. It's that no matter what someone does to counter a hybrid CC Sorcerer they have more to counter the counter.

 

Which has been shown to be a lie.

[Dezeit]

I love the merc comparison written by someone that does not play one.....

 

You forgot the simple ommission you can't move and its LOS for the entire cast time. If you stay still then the merc has the advantage, but with a cast time it can be interupted and does not work while stun locked (something a sorc can do) and the sorc can sprint away. Oh did I mention heat buildup (can be mitigated to some degree by crits and talents). Merc is a one trick class in that one trick its very powerful (possibly too powerful, but you take that away and they have nothing else). Sorc has many tricks across the board.

 

In an environment like hutball the bag of tricks a sorc has just makes it the default choice for most people. You can sprint (through the fires), stun lock, knock back off platforms, pull the ball handler to you. I think most peoples challenges with Sorcs are in hutball. Maybe reducing abilities in that specific WZ would balance it more.

[Tumri]

Except that you've already proven handily that you have no idea how the mechanics of these abilities work, or their effect on Resolve.

 

Your lies have already been thoroughly debunked. Quit spreading misinformation.

 

lol, 2 people can't kill 1 hybrid Sorc. Please.

 

1. If you're blowing every CC at once you're doing it wrong. Spacing out your CC lets you to make a target useless 40% of the fight.

 

2. They're not lies and none of them have been debunked. In the beginning you kept claiming "They don't have too much. L2P." and then you moved on to "You can interrupt Force Lightning and insta-win. L2P". Now you're on "You're just stupid and nothing you've said is true. LIAR! LIAR! PANTS ON FIRE! L2P."

 

3. Did you read what I said? I didn't say a Sorcerer could WIN a 2v1. I said a Sorcerer can escape a 2v1 more effectively than anyone else.

[Tumri]

Which has been shown to be a lie.

 

Where? In that fantasy world where interrupting their filler move somehow locks them out of using any other ability?

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri

[shaidarlol]

1. If you're blowing every CC at once you're doing it wrong. Spacing out your CC lets you to make a target useless 40% of the fight.

 

2. They're not lies and none of them have been debunked. In the beginning you kept claiming "They don't have too much. L2P." and then you moved on to "You can interrupt Force Lightning and insta-win. L2P". Now you're on "You're just stupid and nothing you've said is true. LIAR! LIAR! PANTS ON FIRE! L2P."

 

3. Did you read what I said? I didn't say a Sorcerer could WIN a 2v1. I said a Sorcerer can escape a 2v1 more effectively than anyone else.

 

i dont agree with you sir, pretty sure anyone can escape a 2v1 if they are in the right position. your own class can, in fact your class can escape a full on 8v1 if needed.

[Lormif]

1. If you're blowing every CC at once you're doing it wrong. Spacing out your CC lets you to make a target useless 40% of the fight.

 

2. They're not lies and none of them have been debunked. In the beginning you kept claiming "They don't have too much. L2P." and then you moved on to "You can interrupt Force Lightning and insta-win. L2P". Now you're on "You're just stupid and nothing you've said is true. LIAR! LIAR! PANTS ON FIRE! L2P."

 

3. Did you read what I said? I didn't say a Sorcerer could WIN a 2v1. I said a Sorcerer can escape a 2v1 more effectively than anyone else.

 

Actually you are ignoring a lot.. I am not going to repeat what was said previously, but will comment on number 3, there is no way in hell, with all the stuns, snares and leaps graples and all a sorc should be able to escape 2 players.. Please tell me how that plays out, in a theoretical sense.

[shaidarlol]

Where? In that fantasy world where interrupting their filler move somehow locks them out of using any other ability?

 

it locks them out of casting crushing darkness and/or chain lightning instantly....which is basically the only reason you would cast either of the 2 spells...

[Tumri]

no man, he also mentions that sorcs are fine 1v1 but when there's more it's a problem, so the answer is nerf them so they are fair when it's XvX, but when it's 1v1 they just get pooped on.

 

They aren't "fine" 1v1. They still have more tools than anyone else. I said that they're most vulnerable 1v1. A few classes have a DECENT chance to kill them if they choose to fight to the death 1v1. Their CC capability still makes them very difficult to kill even 1v1 if they do more than just stand there spamming Force Lightning at you with the occasional random knockback. On the flip side you're totally screwed if a Sorcerer decides to just CC and run to the safety of their team because there's nothing you can do to touch a Sorcerer in a group battle. The imbalance here is they're among the better classes 1v1 and absolutely godlike in any group battle.

[Tumri]

Actually you are ignoring a lot.. I am not going to repeat what was said previously, but will comment on number 3, there is no way in hell, with all the stuns, snares and leaps graples and all a sorc should be able to escape 2 players.. Please tell me how that plays out, in a theoretical sense.

 

Bubble pops. Sorcerer uses knockback once he's out of whatever stun they put him in(if at all). Force Sprint

 

Done.

 

Edit: If he's slowed he can Purge before Force Sprinting.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri

[Zlashie]

For me, all Bioware has to do is remove 1 of the sorc utilities and I will be fine with my melee toons giving me a chance to actually do something.

 

Remove 1 of the following abilities should fix it.

 

- Remove their bubble and I have a chance to damage them before/after the sprint and between being slowed/rooted/stunned/knocked back

 

- Remove their sprint so that when I get through their bubble they cant instant move away from me giving me a chance to dps before I get knocked back/rooted/slowed/stunned

 

- Remove their static slow on their main channel ability and I have a chance to catch up between all their utility so that I have a chance whilst they dps me down. You allready have a bubble, sprint, stun, knockback with root to keep me away.

 

- Remove their Knockback Root effect and I have a chance to catch up and deal damage between their stuff before they sprint + bubble away and laugh at me whilst I slowly die from DoTs, whilst they use their main ability to add the static slow on me.

 

You take your pick, but one of them has to go.