Sonic Barrier moderate amount of dmg?

[thorizdin]

You obviously didn't read the thread. If you had you'd have seen Elobi's incredibly detailed analysis that's been posted on these forums multiple times:

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Immortal-Defense-Compendium-A-Tank-s-Guide-To-The-Galaxy?pid=10239#pid10239

 

The 2k absorb from Sonic barrier might not sound as awesome as 20% DR, but with the increased threat, mobility and flexibilitym, the slight loss of survivability is definetly worth it.

 

My point on gear is that you're introducing variables when you shouldn't be. I tested WITHOUT gear for that reason and all you're doing is confusing the issue by adding in items that can and do cause issues. For example the threat degen for BHs is -.25 instead of the -25 all of the other classes get and since that's not a multiple its clearly a decimal entry error.

[Layotees]

You obviously didn't read the thread. If you had you'd have seen Elobi's incredibly detailed analysis that's been posted on these forums multiple times:

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Immortal-Defense-Compendium-A-Tank-s-Guide-To-The-Galaxy?pid=10239#pid10239

 

 

 

My point on gear is that you're introducing variables when you shouldn't be. I tested WITHOUT gear for that reason and all you're doing is confusing the issue by adding in items that can and do cause issues. For example the threat degen for BHs is -.25 instead of the -25 all of the other classes get and since that's not a multiple its clearly a decimal entry error.

 

You might want to look at what thread you linked me to in your last post, bud. You also might want to actually look at Elobi's data and realize that it is all theorycraft without any basis in the actual game engine, let alone a listed patch in which it may have been conducted in game.

 

Elobi's data backs up me doing this in my gear, as it supports Force Power and Willpower increasing the strength of Sonic Barrier. Is Elobi's data a useable source or is it not?

 

I did the test with and without my offhand equipped, which is a drop of over 400 of my force power. If there was a difference in the strength of Sonic Barrier it was small enough to be confusable with the damage range of non crit Tracer Missiles.

 

Regardless, if you're actually seeing 1200 sonic barriers naked then the move is scaling backwards with gear, and it doesn't matter what it's base numbers are, because 400 more damage per shield is not going to convince me to fight a boss naked.

[Layotees]

Elobi also goes on to reference some datamined numbers to back up his math:

 

I never said that it absorbs 708,5 damage, where did you get those numbers from ?

 

The numbers are datamined from the .TOR files.

 

StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are referring to the values in another table called cbtStandardHealingInfo. (If this was a damage ability, they would be referring to values in cbtStandardDamageInfo).

 

In that table, you will find a several sub-tables of numbers, for various "toughnesses" (weak, normal, strong, etc). If you scroll down about halfway through that table, you'll find a sub-table with the heading "cbtToughness_player".

 

Then there is a list of numbers from 1-50, which is the level at which you last trained a rank of the ability (for trained abilities) or the rank at which the ability becomes available (for skill tree abilities). Since Blade Barrier is the latter, and becomes available at Level 30, the corresponding number is 3670.

 

So the ability absorbs 367 damage.

 

Like a few abilities, Static Barrier is listed under a different (earlier?) name in the data files, and is called "Backlash". For Backlash, you will see StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are 0.164, and the HealingPowerCoefficient is 3.27. Since the last rank of Static Barrier is trainable at Level 50, the corresponding number from the cbtStandardHealing table is 7085.

 

That means StaticBarrier absorbs 0.164*7085 = 1161.94 + 3.27*ForceHealingBonus (at Level 50).

 

¨

 

This formula is true for all absorb mechanics

 

As can be seen here, he has the force healing ratio for sonic barrier listed at 3.27 on top of a base absorb of 1161.94. My force healing is at 178, meaning if these numbers were right, my sonic barriers would absorb 1743 damage without 4 piece War Leader.

 

If these numbers were right, I would not have taken damage from my merc friend's 1400 damage tracer missiles at all.

 

Datamined math is not word of God. Use the formulas yourself and see how right they are when compared to actual in game data.

 

Edit: However, other people in that thread have pointed out that people in the formula discussion thread have found that the actual data for sonic barrier would have the 7085 value recorded in the data actually refer to 708.5. 708.5 + 20% is MUCH closer to the actual real in game data that is being reflected by my tests than this mythical 2k Sonic Barrier that has only been theorycrafted.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Layotees

[Layotees]

Also, the ability "Backlash" that is referenced in that datamined information does not refer to Sonic Barrier; it refers to the Sorcerer ability Static Barrier.

 

All of your numbers are based off another class' ability.

[thorizdin]

Datamined math is not word of God. Use the formulas yourself and see how right they are when compared to actual in game data.

 

Edit: However, other people in that thread have pointed out that people in the formula discussion thread have found that the actual data for sonic barrier would have the 7085 value recorded in the data actually refer to 708.5. 708.5 + 20% is MUCH closer to the actual real in game data that is being reflected by my tests than this mythical 2k Sonic Barrier that has only been theorycrafted.

 

I've never said that getting data from the game files was authoritative but when that data matches testing done by numerous people (though I've never seen anyone get 2k in testing) it has a lot more credibility than some random person who doesn't seem to understand HOW to correctly test. I said to test, I said I would retest, and I provided information where others had gotten similar results. I even pointed out where and how you could get different results. One thing I didn't mention is that its very likely that the value of SB is based on health so one thing that anyone testing should report is their HP at the time they ran the test.

[thorizdin]

Also, the ability "Backlash" that is referenced in that datamined information does not refer to Sonic Barrier; it refers to the Sorcerer ability Static Barrier.

 

All of your numbers are based off another class' ability.

 

What you smoking? I don't know how you can mistake the direct quote from Elobi's work:

 

The 2k absorb from Sonic barrier might not sound as awesome as 20% DR, but with the increased threat, mobility and flexibilitym, the slight loss of survivability is definetly worth it.

 

Given that this came from the analysis on Jug skills and no other class I can't imagine how you can begin to make such a ludicrous claim.

[Kendry]

Sonic Barrier is totally worth the talent points the 4 piece tier set gives u an extra 20% making it go up to 40% so now instead of absorbing a 1.2k hit ur absorbing a 2.4 thats amazing especially if u know the boss is enraging or hitting harder that one absorbed hit could be just enough for the healers heal too go off before u die so yea totally worth taking it No CONTEST!

 

Uh. What? Can you redo the math for me on this?

[islossk]

i never even went defense spec, i looked at it and laughed so hard i cried and went vig/defense hybrid

[Layotees]

I've never said that getting data from the game files was authoritative but when that data matches testing done by numerous people (though I've never seen anyone get 2k in testing) it has a lot more credibility than some random person who doesn't seem to understand HOW to correctly test. I said to test, I said I would retest, and I provided information where others had gotten similar results. I even pointed out where and how you could get different results. One thing I didn't mention is that its very likely that the value of SB is based on health so one thing that anyone testing should report is their HP at the time they ran the test.

 

Read this thread: http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list?page=10

 

Elobi's post is pulled straight from information concerning Static Barrier.

[Layotees]

What you smoking? I don't know how you can mistake the direct quote from Elobi's work:

 

 

 

Given that this came from the analysis on Jug skills and no other class I can't imagine how you can begin to make such a ludicrous claim.

 

This specifically, on page 9: http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list?page=9

 

StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are referring to the values in another table called cbtStandardHealingInfo. (If this was a damage ability, they would be referring to values in cbtStandardDamageInfo).

 

In that table, you will find a several sub-tables of numbers, for various "toughnesses" (weak, normal, strong, etc). If you scroll down about halfway through that table, you'll find a sub-table with the heading "cbtToughness_player".

 

Then there is a list of numbers from 1-50, which is the level at which you last trained a rank of the ability (for trained abilities) or the rank at which the ability becomes available (for skill tree abilities). Since Blade Barrier is the latter, and becomes available at Level 30, the corresponding number is 3670.

 

So the ability absorbs 367 damage.

 

Like a few abilities, Static Barrier is listed under a different (earlier?) name in the data files, and is called "Backlash". For Backlash, you will see StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are 0.164, and the HealingPowerCoefficient is 3.27. Since the last rank of Static Barrier is trainable at Level 50, the corresponding number from the cbtStandardHealing table is 7085.

 

That means StaticBarrier absorbs 0.164*7085 = 1161.94 + 3.27*ForceHealingBonus (at Level 50).

 

Is the ORIGINAL datamining and math that Elobi reposted in that Juggernaut tanking thread. Note what ability this poster is talking about. It's Static Barrier.

 

Sonic Barrier is NOT the same. Talk down about me and my supposedly flawed testing, but the person you're quoting literally copy and pasted math for a completely different ability, something that should be painfully obvious for anyone who's done some actual testing in game.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Layotees

[thorizdin]

You act like Elobi isn't tanking with a Jug in NM and didn't test the data. The only thing I can assume is that you're a complete troll, which means you won since I didn't figure it out until now.

 

Regardless I will retest Sonic Barrier and provide complete details AGAIN using a good testing methodology.

[Tankshoes]

I've started to see the downside of Sonic Barrier (in the sense that it's weak and essentially only reduces damage for 1 hit, every 12 sec), but now I'm more interested if +4% DR is better than +4% shield chance.

 

 

Is 17/24/0 worth trying? Or just silly?

 

The difference in damage taken between having the extra DR4% and not is very small. It would still take a number of hits to be counted as needing to receive 1 additional heal.

[Helig]

I've started to see the downside of Sonic Barrier (in the sense that it's weak and essentially only reduces damage for 1 hit, every 12 sec), but now I'm more interested if +4% DR is better than +4% shield chance.

 

 

Is 17/24/0 worth trying? Or just silly?

 

The difference in damage taken between having the extra DR4% and not is very small. It would still take a number of hits to be counted as needing to receive 1 additional heal.

 

Why'd you trade 4% total mitigation for 4% shield chance is beyond me. 4% shield chance is like 0.3-0.4% mitigation against white-only attacks. Would make sense to get 4% damage resistance to *everything* instead.

 

If I ran 17\24, I'd max out Heavy Handed. It works well for general-purpose non-minmax tanking - and your rotations aren't as rigid\sluggish\Revenge-dependent as full Defense.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Helig

[Tankshoes]

Because if, for example, you took 250k dmg in one 5min fight, you'd get more out of 4% shield chance (with a base of 24% chance/20% absorb), than you would from just DR4%.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and the shield procs would be inconsistent, making your intake a bit spiky, but DR4% just doesn't seem all that attractive.

[Layotees]

You act like Elobi isn't tanking with a Jug in NM and didn't test the data. The only thing I can assume is that you're a complete troll, which means you won since I didn't figure it out until now.

 

Regardless I will retest Sonic Barrier and provide complete details AGAIN using a good testing methodology.

 

Since you're so blinded by idol worship that you wont see the proof that Elobi used the wrong numbers for his theorycraft when I put it right in your face, when I get home from work I'll be FRAPSing a video of some more tests showing Sonic Barrier absorbing for less than 1k, both in no gear and in Rakata Gear (Which I got -wait for it- Tanking Nightmare Modes.)

[thorizdin]

No, if you want to say Elobi's wrong then go post over on those boards and let him/her answer your questions. My data is based on MY testing as well what several others reported. Elobi just provided one of the most detailed break downs and I don't know him or her. I can also say you don't follow a good testing methodology hence I view your claims with a great deal of skepticism.

 

Facts

 

1) I tested 3-4 weeks ago (I said 2 weeks in an earlier post, but the guys who helped said it was further back).

 

2) I tested with no buffs active and in orange gear to ensure that no set bonus math was getting in the way.

 

3) I tested with an elemental attack that doesn't apply a debuff.

 

4) I will retest with these same circumstances and report back what I find. If BW made a change that lowered the value of SB then I'll corroborate your testing.

 

5) If you're really concerned about accurate data you'd retest and provide complete data on your results.

 

 

I really want to find out if the buff is a percentage of health, which I suspect, but I didn't think to test for earlier.

Edited February 9, 2012 by thorizdin

[Layotees]

I've finished gathering video of testing with an ability with a guaranteed crit, and a damage range of 102 after surge is factored.

 

We were using a Carnage Marauder using the guaranteed crit force screams, as it's a special attack and cannot be deflected. He did not have Sever to keep the damage range as small as possible, and the video shows his buffs so you can see we were clicking off Execute before he Screamed so it wouldn't further increase his damage.

 

We tested his damage totals on me while I was naked, in most of my gear but without the set bonus that effects sonic barrier, and finally in all of my gear except my matrix cube, so I did have the set bonus that effects sonic barrier. We tested the damage range both with and without sonic barrier up in each level of gear.

 

I'll be putting the video together after my op, and it should be done sometime tomorrow. Some preview information about what is in the video:

 

-Sonic Barrier is not percentage based. It absorbs the same amount of damage in the naked test and the most gear no set bonus test, or as close to the same amount as can be assumed in a damage range less than or equal to 100.

-Sonic Barrier absorbs roughly 700 damage without the set bonus, and roughly 850 with it.

-Sonic Barrier does not absorb for more than 1000 in any tested scenario.

-The naked tests are done with a 0% kinetic damage mitigation, with a calculated damage range of 103.

-The mostly geared test is done with 21.81% kinetic damage mitigation, closing the damage range to 84.5

-The fully geared test is done with 30.26% kinetic damage mitigation, closing the damage range to 79.

-In all of the tests the Marauder only has his weapons equipped, the damage level of Force Scream is 1069-1133 kinetic, with a 58.8% multiplier. This put his damage with force scream crits against me at 1748 + or - 51.5 before armor.

-You can see the scrolling combat text for all of his screams without the barriers, and we paused a couple seconds before the screams with sonic barrier so you can compare my health before and after his screams.

 

 

I'd also like to point out I did these tests a month ago without this level of documentation, and my rough estimates were in the same areas this information is now. When this video comes out and proves you wrong, please don't try to say that they stealth nerfed the ability and you were totally right.

 

I'll be posting this on the Sithwarrior.com forums as well when it is finished.

[Layotees]

 

Disclaimer: Some of the decimals in this have been rounded, numbers to the nearest integer, percentages to the nearest tenth.

Timeline of the video is down at the bottom. I do advise you watch the video in an HD format so you can read my health bar.

Scrolling Combat Text does not display drops in health from attacks that break Sonic Barrier.

 

Mahlus Scream: 1069 to 1133 + 58.8% = 1698 to 1799

 

Naked test: 0% mitigation, 1748 median, range 101 1698 to 1799

 

2826 - 1755 = 1071 health lost = 630 to 731 absorbed

2626 - 1554 = 1072 health lost = 629 to 730 absorbed

2999 - 1928 = 1071 health lost = 630 to 731 absorbed

 

Average range: 630 to 731

 

Analysis: Assuming the value of Sonic Barrier is constant and not a range,

All three screams hit for about the same amount. This data is not conclusive,

additional testing is necessary to get a more exact value for sonic barrier's absorb.

 

Armor no set bonus test: 21.81% mitigation, 1369 median, range 78 1330 to 1408

 

15540 - 14931 = 609 health lost = 721 to 799 absorbed

13323 - 12667 = 656 health lost = 674 to 752 absorbed

11236 - 10561 = 675 health lost = 655 to 733 absorbed

 

Average Absorb Range: 683 to 735

 

Analysis: Damage taken range is 65, very close to the damage dealable range of 78.

If Sonic Barrier is indeed a constant and not a range, it most likely absorbs close to 705

within this scenario. Inconclusive data in the naked test makes it difficult to determine

if Sonic Barrier scales with gear, but can conclude that if it does, it scales VERY slowly.

 

Armor set bonus test: 30.26% mitigation, 1219 median, range 70 1184 to 1254

 

17501 - 17145 = 356 health lost = 828 to 898 absorbed

15018 - 14681 = 337 health lost = 847 to 917 absorbed

12997 - 12624 = 373 health lost = 811 to 881 absorbed

 

Average Absorb Range: 828 to 898

 

Analysis: Damage taken range is 36, half of the damage dealable range, making this less

precise than the previous test for finding the value of Sonic Barrier. However, the average

is a solid 145 to 163 points higher than the test without the set bonus. 705 x 1.2 = 846

backs up the conclusion that Sonic Barrier absorbs somewhere around 705 without the set bonus,

and somewhere around 845 with the set bonus (when in most of gear).

 

Video Timeline:

 

Start to 1:00: I display my stats during the naked test and Mahlus' stats for all of the tests.

 

1:05 to 1:22: Mahlus hits me with a Force Scream with Execute up. This is to show that we were aware that the ability could throw off our numbers,

and that we were accounting for it and having him click it off should it proc in future tests. His buff bar is visible for all of the test screams.

 

1:23 to 2:05: 3 Force Screams without Sonic Barrier up during the naked test.

 

2:05 to 2:50: 3 Force Screams with Sonic Barrier up during the naked test. The numbers for these screams are listed above.

 

2:58 to 3:05: Displaying stats for the gear with no set bonus test.

 

3:05 to 3:55: 3 Force Screams without Sonic Barrier up during the gear with no set bonus test.

 

4:00 to 5:05: 3 Force Screams with Sonic Barrier up during the gear with no set bonus test. Numbers above.

 

5:15 to 5:22: Displaying stats for the gear with set bonus test.

 

5:23 to 6:00: 3 Force Screams without Sonic Barrier up during the gear with set bonus test.

 

6:00 to end: 3 Force Screams with Sonic Barrier up during the gear with set bonus test. Numbers above.

[thorizdin]

I will re-run my testing next weekend since I have a business trip this week. Despite not having an agreeable conversation I do want to thank you for actually doing what you said you would. About the only thing I saw that I didn't like was all of the shielded attacks happened with you at less than 100% health, which makes it difficult to see (even on HD) what the mitigation was. Also, can you share your talent specs?