kingcanute Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 So one of the things that is great about this game is that it has a compelling story that allows us to make meaningful choices that feel impactful. The character system, as it currently works, supports that theme, with the ability to go well beyond a small number of pure-tank or pure-DPS cookie cutters and actually engineer interesting hybrids, making real choices and exercising independent judgment and creativity. Sometimes this clever engineering makes a "better" build (like how sometimes the story decisions make you really worse or better off), but quite often the result is just one that feels a little different in a way that suits your style. This is also much like the great BioWare single-player RPGs like KOTOR, where interesting hybrid mucking about was often the funnest part of playing. (MY Darth Revan is a woman who wears heavy armor) Yet there are rumblings on the boards in various classes that BioWare doesn't like us to have this choice. They want us to play cookie-cutter builds and are frustrated when we do things they didn't intend by creating hybrid builds. Some recent patches make this feel like a credible story, though it's easy to over-interpret small tweaks as a systematic campaign. So, what's the story? Are hybrid builds part of enabling players to make choices, and create their own experience in a game? Or are they not-as-intended and if I want to play this game long term I'd better get used to one of the 3 prescribed builds for each of my classes? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFourPO Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Good aspects to the choice in TOR are that there are hybrid classes and trees, and even concentrations under those hybrid advanced classes (AC). I've found AC/tree combos that fit what I want in a few characters. On the other hand, I've played a lot of MMOs where I had vastly more choice in playstyle - City of Heroes, Fallen Earth, Darkfall, Guild Wars to name a few. But there are cons to that much choice. None of those games ever had what you could call balance. There were so many possibilities for picking powers that players came up with synergies the devs had not considered, and made characters that were clearly over powered. Despite some QQ in the forums here, we have not seen balance issues anywhere near what happened in those games. Bottom line, I find the class system average. I could imagine some improvements, but its nothing to cry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Hybrids are often fun and interesting to play solo (especially in SWTOR with complimentary Companions). The problems with Hybrids start when you get to higher-level Flashpoints and Operations. Now your "Damage Tank" suddenly isn't tough-enough to go toe-to-toe with the bosses, but doesn't do enough damage to help the group drop them in a timely manner. Your "DPS/Healer" hybrid doesn't heal well-enough to offset the damage done by the bosses and the damage you only sporadically do (since you split your time between healing and damage) isn't close to what somebody specialized in dealing damage does. Even pairing up 2 "complimentary hybrids" tends to result in a sum "less than the parts" - 2 Damage Tanks swapping the boss still take a lot more damage than a single focused Tank, but now require more effort from the Healer both in terms of damage that needs to be healed and the Healer switching between the two of them. I'm not saying Hybrids can't work - they are simply less-efficient and everybody in your group needs to support them to build an effective team (and even then you will generally be out-performed by a "classical" 1 Tank/1 Healer/2 DPS group in most Content). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 So one of the things that is great about this game is that it has a compelling story that allows us to make meaningful choices that feel impactful. The character system, as it currently works, supports that theme, with the ability to go well beyond a small number of pure-tank or pure-DPS cookie cutters and actually engineer interesting hybrids, making real choices and exercising independent judgment and creativity. Sometimes this clever engineering makes a "better" build (like how sometimes the story decisions make you really worse or better off), but quite often the result is just one that feels a little different in a way that suits your style. This is also much like the great BioWare single-player RPGs like KOTOR, where interesting hybrid mucking about was often the funnest part of playing. (MY Darth Revan is a woman who wears heavy armor) Yet there are rumblings on the boards in various classes that BioWare doesn't like us to have this choice. They want us to play cookie-cutter builds and are frustrated when we do things they didn't intend by creating hybrid builds. Some recent patches make this feel like a credible story, though it's easy to over-interpret small tweaks as a systematic campaign. So, what's the story? Are hybrid builds part of enabling players to make choices, and create their own experience in a game? Or are they not-as-intended and if I want to play this game long term I'd better get used to one of the 3 prescribed builds for each of my classes? Thoughts? You are going to give more detail then "vague statement this" "rumor this" "vague patch information this"..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingcanute Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 You are going to give more detail then "vague statement this" "rumor this" "vague patch information this"..... I don't know. That's why I asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I don't know. That's why I asked. So you dont know what you are asking, that is why you asked? I am sorry but if you dont know what you are asking how do you expect to get any meaningful responses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingcanute Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 So you dont know what you are asking, that is why you asked? I am sorry but if you dont know what you are asking how do you expect to get any meaningful responses? You seem crabby and I don 't know why. The questions I was asking are right there at the end of the post, followed in each case by a customary question mark. I don't know anymore what you're even angry with me about. If it was that I couldn't be specific about the "rumblings" I mentioned, then my answer is that I don't know whether they are grounded or not. Sorry to have upset you but maybe the best thing would be for you to stop reading this thread. Maybe I can still engage with people who did understand my concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikandar Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I leveled to 50 as a combat medic trooper. It was fun and the survivability was really shocking. I did find while its single target heals were on par with other healers, the group heals were for lack of a better term - paltry. I then chose to respec to gain a hybrid build. I think its 23/18/0 still leaning toward healing. Also at work right now so the exact spec build is a bit cloudy at the moment. I have my Grav Round for the debuffs, Trauma Probe for the spot heals, and Preventative Medicine for the HoTs. Somehow in all of this I have become much more efficient in my ammo management. I find my self rarely using my ammo reload ability. Combat Support Cell and Supercharge cells have made my character more durable, better sustained dps, and still able to help out our group Sage out on heals so he is not always out of Force Power and forced to use any unnecessary cooldowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidkjames Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Hybrid builds are what makes games fun imo. Sometimes if your playstyle matches up better with a hybrid build, it can be your most productive contribution, regardless what min/max theory crafting provides. This is one reason I am against damage and healing meters being put in this game as it tends to dissolve the creativiity in builds. Combat logs with detailed information is crucial for the long term but anything that pigeon holes people into specific builds should be kept out of the game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingcanute Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Hybrid builds are what makes games fun imo. Sometimes if your playstyle matches up better with a hybrid build, it can be your most productive contribution, regardless what min/max theory crafting provides. This is one reason I am against damage and healing meters being put in this game as it tends to dissolve the creativiity in builds. Combat logs with detailed information is crucial for the long term but anything that pigeon holes people into specific builds should be kept out of the game... This is kind of what I think too - and hope it stays this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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