PvP Gear changes in 1.2 , let me get this straight...

[dannythefool]

Whoa, I didn't realize the mechanics, setting, and playstyle of an MMORPG were the same as a first person shooter!

I've been missing out!

 

Actually, if you were talking about Mortal Online... which is unfortunately severely lacking on the technical and mechanical side... but yeah go check it out, if there's nothing else to say about it, at least they tried to make it not like WOW...

[heikaze]

So, my opinion is invalid, while only yours is valid ? I'm so sorry we do not agree with each other. But that's the life..you know, the stuff outside games. Do not expect to agree with you.

 

My original post was about afkers of sort, and it got twisted by another troll and you started to reply half through only and cut sentences out of the context.

 

So please...

 

Simply put, I feel pvp should be about fun and skill, not about grind. You feel pvp should be about effort and progress (sweet words for grind). Do you see me insulting you?

 

I guess i came off a little strong, i apologize for that. Its just annoying to the massive of QQers. While its all simple fact, people who put in more time and effort should get more rewards for playing. While those rewards can be gears, more understanding of thier class, more tricks and bags, etc.

 

But it just seem that alot of people who does not want the experience all of that and just want to be on par with other players.

 

Then if all gear for PvP is taken out, trust me. you will see a whole new band-wagon of QQers saying the OPness of other classes and calling out for nerfs.

[Terrahero]

I am not calling for the gear to be equal. I am only trying to make a comparison. That new PVE players have a gap in effectiveness between them and people with PVE gear who have put time and effort in order to have that increase in effectiveness.

 

I am only trying to understand what this shouldn't be the same in a PVP environment.

 

Because PvE and PvP are very different. You PvE to progress through content and face new bosses and challenges that can only be unlocked by earlier progress.

 

In PvP you fight other players for the sport of seeing who is better. Gear actually only gets in the way and changes it to "whoever has moar expertise". Id rather see them normalize all stats in pvp, no gear advantage only skill. It would also make it much easier to identify when a class is overpowered or underpowered.

[VellyX]

Look who is talking..it was in post "Crafting Profession Changes in patch 1.1.2". SO it is most likely crafting related...so no nerfs for pvp gear.

 

 

My bad, I just thought he had the wrong link up, but that is true, it was in "Crafting Profession Changes in patch 1.1.2" But the statement is still there, they intend reducing the difference the gear makes, even if it is not something they have committed to enough to be in patch notes yet.

[diogolp]

That's valid. Let's withhold judgment until we see how they intend to close the gear gap. I have a feeling that BW is not dumb enough to create the situation you are describing.

 

But the issue is already in place. I would be fine with a buff to lower level pvp gear to close the gap. But nerfing pvp gear, or nerfing expertise, will make sets that are already borderline worse irrelevant.

 

Let me compare the merc gear just to illustrate. Ill use champion and columi:

pve gear has about 15-20% more endurance and more aim (and, on top of it all, these things scale with talents). Which in the end makes it almost even with the damage reduction and increase from pvp gear. But the set bonus is totally in favor of the pve gear. Pve gear gets 15% more crit to power shot and tracer missile (spammable skills) with 2 pieces. Meanwhile, the pvp gear lowers the cooldown of jet boost by 10 seconds and with 4 pieces adds 15% crit to rail shot (rail shot is on a cooldown).

 

So it is already questionable if the pvp gear is the best for pvp. Any nerf whatsoever will tilt the scales fully in the pve gear side. Heck, I bet a lot of the complaining about tracer missile is because of people with 2 piece pve set bonus.

 

So any nerf whatsoever will lead this to vanilla wow territory, where pvers had the best of both worlds.

Edited February 2, 2012 by diogolp

[VellyX]

Yes skill helps a lot if your whole team has it, but not if the other team is fully geared and most likely already seasoned (assuming they didn't just sit through WZ's the whole grind)

 

Read what I said, the problem does not lie in the gear, it lies in the matchmaking system. If they fix that you will not face a fully geared team if you are freshly out of leveling. They don't make it harder, just more frustrating anyway.

[Abiza]

Cool, then just remove the gear altogether sp we can have fun pvping.

 

Cool, and we can remove gear drops from all PVE content as well since you were already able to kill the boss with the mediocre gear you have now while having fun. Sound good butter cup?

[JasonTheImpaler]

Read what I said, the problem does not lie in the gear, it lies in the matchmaking system. If they fix that you will not face a fully geared team if you are freshly out of leveling. They don't make it harder, just more frustrating anyway.

 

I read it, and I think you're completely right, it would be very helpful to have the match making that way

[Puja]

I definitely agree with the posts about making PVP more lateral with long term rewards being more prestige oriented rather than power oriented. You earn new titles, mounts, pets and gear with a look that few others have, and if you want, you should be able to pull the mods, armor, and so forth from that gear and put it in something else for a different look.

 

Its hard to complain when you are beat and you know its because you suck, whereas its a real drag when a major factor is being grossly outgeared, grossly outnumbered, or your class is underpowered.

[Dalnar]

I guess i came off a little strong, i apologize for that. Its just annoying to the massive of QQers. While its all simple fact, people who put in more time and effort should get more rewards for playing. While those rewards can be gears, more understanding of thier class, more tricks and bags, etc.

 

But it just seem that alot of people who does not want the experience all of that and just want to be on par with other players.

 

Then if all gear for PvP is taken out, trust me. you will see a whole new band-wagon of QQers saying the OPness of other classes and calling out for nerfs.

 

Well no strong feelings here. I was just saying every coin has two sides. I hate grind, yet love pvp. In order to competitive pvp I have to grind. That's something I have hard time subbing for, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I guess I just expected SWTOR to be modern, not use the same carrot on stick model from other MMOs, to keep people subbed.

 

The difference I see is, that when I hit lvl 50 with greens I cannot expect to go straight to some top end raid and "progress". I have to make step by step. While in PvP new players are basically thrown against end pvpers. I personally have not problem with this (I love challenge), but everything has its limits.

 

So adding some starting blue gear from crafting is a good thing from my perspective.

[grey_fox_uk]

pvp gear should give a substantial advantage over pve gear in a pvp environment. as well a pve geared player should dominate a pvp geared player in a pve environment

 

The problem here, is that players leveling 1-49 have no option to acquire PvP gear, as such, they will hit 50 with 0 expertise.

 

A fresh 50 vs a Battlemaster is fun for neither party, as the (already low) skill:gear ratio is almost insurmountable for the new-comer.

 

Honestly, I dislike the entire concept of gear progression in PvP. I understand that many players enjoy feeling "OP" and it keeps the subs rolling, but I would be happy if progression in PvP was measured in prestige/titles/achievements/custom appearances etc, rather than raw stat boosts.

 

In most competitive games, the more skilled player is given a handicap vs a less experienced player, not an advantage. Why this is reversed in the MMO genre still boggles my mind.

[heikaze]

Well no strong feelings here. I was just saying every coin has two sides. I hate grind, yet love pvp. In order to competitive pvp I have to grind. That's something I have hard time subbing for, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I guess I just expected SWTOR to be modern, not use the same carrot on stick model from other MMOs, to keep people subbed.

 

The difference I see is, that when I hit lvl 50 with greens I cannot expect to go straight to some top end raid and "progress". I have to make step by step. While in PvP new players are basically thrown against end pvpers. I personally have not problem with this (I love challenge), but everything has its limits.

 

So adding some starting blue gear from crafting is a good thing from my perspective.

 

I agree with adding blues, don't know why they took it out in the first places.

[LeEntropy]

Nowhere does that post say that they're gonna nerf the pvp gear. They just say they're gonna close the gap. They're probably gonna introduce a blue lvl 50 pvp gear and that's all. So much QQ on the forums without even knowing what's gonna change.

[Abiza]

I agree with adding blues, don't know why they took it out in the first places.

 

Pretty sure in place of blues, they'll just get the first teir pvp gear that's currently harder to get than Champion gear. Six in one hand, half dozen in the other.

[Trenyc]

PvE gear gets progressively better to empower players to handle more challenging PvE encounters.

 

PvP gear should not get progressively better because there is no such thing as progressively more challenging PvP encounters. When you enter a warzone, you don't get to "choose" what difficulty you want. You don't get to pick Hard Mode or Nightmare Mode. There's no progression involved. It's a crap shoot, and you're rewarded for failing.

 

Using your own analogy, OP, giving PvPers progressively better gear for PvPing (with the current system) is not akin to normal PvE progression. It's akin to throwing a bunch of people with level 50 blues into Karagga's Palace on Nightmare Mode. Buen suelo.

 

Oh, and you get shiny loots even when you all faceplant at the first trash group repeatedly until you ragequit.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Trenyc

[Dalnar]

Pretty sure in place of blues, they'll just get the first teir pvp gear that's currently harder to get than Champion gear. Six in one hand, half dozen in the other.

 

I think they will just reintroduce the "removed" blue gear via crafting.

[Cempa]

Essentially BW is sending a clear message that TOR is first and foremost a PvE game and PvE customers are more important so pleasing them is top priority.

 

As if it was not bad enough that PvP servers are so PvE friendly they -PvP servers- are flooded with players who do not even like PvP, no desire to PvP and would not even care if all PvP was canceled on PvP servers.

 

BW you realize that PvP servers are filled with these people right? You realize that these people make Wazones hell because you find them in starting area dancing instead of playing? The tell people who try to give some wining strategy to shut up.

 

These people YOU allowed to be on PvP servers because YOU made PvP servers so PvE friendly are the reason we have very little world PvP.

 

True PvP players -even the hardcore PvE ones- will PvP for bragging rights!

 

The only solution is to have PvP servers harsh enough that players who do not enjoy or care fro PvP will NEVER choose to play on them!

Edited February 2, 2012 by Cempa

[Maldeth]

The problem here, is that players leveling 1-49 have no option to acquire PvP gear, as such, they will hit 50 with 0 expertise.

 

A fresh 50 vs a Battlemaster is fun for neither party, as the (already low) skill:gear ratio is almost insurmountable for the new-comer.

 

Honestly, I dislike the entire concept of gear progression in PvP. I understand that many players enjoy feeling "OP" and it keeps the subs rolling, but I would be happy if progression in PvP was measured in prestige/titles/achievements/custom appearances etc, rather than raw stat boosts.

 

In most competitive games, the more skilled player is given a handicap vs a less experienced player, not an advantage. Why this is reversed in the MMO genre still boggles my mind.

 

Perhaps They could Add a PvP mod vendor that gives Mods for PvP but are not as good as the actual gear? Just an idea.

[PalawaJoko]

So this post is in regards to : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=260731

Essentially half way though the post it is stated that pvp gear will be reduced in effectiveness to reduce the gap between incoming 50 pvpers and current 50 pvpers with some amount of gear.

 

Now let me get this straight...

 

If I understand correctly: Pve'rs go through Operations/Hard modes in order to get gear. They do this in order to be able to undertake harder operations/hard modes and ultimately nightmare mode. They have an incentive to gear up in order to more adequately handle PVE encounters.

 

So according to logic. Pvp players do their best to obtain gear in order to more adequately handle PvP encounters.

 

So an incoming level 50 who intends to PVE most also catch up to current level 50 players with adequate PVE gear, in order to be as effective.

 

Why should incoming PvP players be treated any differently?

 

Time and effort rewards PVE players with gear. This gear sets them from the rest of the community in terms of their effectiveness in handling PVE environments.

 

This same effort rewards PVP players. The time and effort you put in to the game should yield moderate results. Parallel and equal to the rewards that a PVE player gets for their perseverance.

 

If PvP gear is , well for lack of a better word "standardized" to a certain extent. What is there to differentiate a player who puts in time and effort in order to be more effective than general community at what he or she enjoys, which is success to a certain extent in a pvp environment.

 

Before you start flaming me, declaring that I am an elitist, I am only valor rank 36. And I am not severely geared, I am currently in a mix of centurion/champion gear with many, many holes in it. I am not trying to declare that people with gear should dominate those without it. But I think that degrading those who have put time and effort into obtaining their gear should not be penalized for trying to do well.

You got it wrong dude. Getting better and gaining more skill should be a reward for a PvPer, not gear. It's plain dumb to compare it to PvE where for example nightmare mode bosses REQUIRES better gear.

 

I'm a PvP player myself and I played Guild Wars which had no PvP gear at all. Yet it was a very successful PvP game and there were many big tournaments too. Gear should not reward a PvP player at all... Rather the fact knowing you get better with your character, better than others and know tricks others doesn't. Then you will feel you're getting rewarded for the effort.

Edited February 2, 2012 by PalawaJoko

[dksocal]

I always see this same reply "...working to get gear".

 

If we have two players, Scooter and Sport. For all intents and purposes they level the same rate, PvP the same rate, ding 50 the same time and have equal amounts of valor and are capped on warzone and merc comms.

 

They both buy their 5 champ bags of the start (if they were smart, they bought one pre-50 as well). Scooter gets nothing but commendations while Sport gets 2 USABLE pieces of gear.

 

If we (and from past in game examples shared by others) extrapolate this out to 10,20,30 bags and we still see the same thing... HOW IS THIS REWARDING YOUR TIME AND EFFORT?

 

Yes they are upping comms, great so its like a sugar pill in a double blind study. You aren't contributing anything to the gear grind that it isn't already. Now what you've done is just make it more obvious. "Hey look kids now instead of having to open 50 bags worth of comms to get a piece you only have to open 20! HOORAY!"

 

Its *********** stupid logic and piss poor fix. Give me real and balanced progression where all things being equal, 2 players have the same chance to be geared and compete. Then it is about putting in the work and then the skill to play your class.

[Maldeth]

I always see this same reply "...working to get gear".

 

If we have two players, Scooter and Sport. For all intents and purposes they level the same rate, PvP the same rate, ding 50 the same time and have equal amounts of valor and are capped on warzone and merc comms.

 

They both buy their 5 champ bags of the start (if they were smart, they bought one pre-50 as well). Scooter gets nothing but commendations while Sport gets 2 USABLE pieces of gear.

 

If we (and from past in game examples shared by others) extrapolate this out to 10,20,30 bags and we still see the same thing... HOW IS THIS REWARDING YOUR TIME AND EFFORT?

 

Yes they are upping comms, great so its like a sugar pill in a double blind study. You aren't contributing anything to the gear grind that it isn't already. Now what you've done is just make it more obvious. "Hey look kids now instead of having to open 50 bags worth of comms to get a piece you only have to open 20! HOORAY!"

 

Its *********** stupid logic and piss poor fix. Give me real and balanced progression where all things being equal, 2 players have the same chance to be geared and compete. Then it is about putting in the work and then the skill to play your class.

 

I agree. I don't understand why It isn't all commendations or something. You can make it as hard to get as you like with the comm's, but at least we would have a 100% chance of getting what we want.

 

Coming from another game that RNG'ed the one of the best equips in the game. I'm tired of being beat by people better equiped just because I have bad luck.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Maldeth

[Ghamsar]

The problem here, is that players leveling 1-49 have no option to acquire PvP gear, as such, they will hit 50 with 0 expertise

 

level 50 tonight....I got a gun level 46 that has +15 expertise enhancement

 

didn't help me much,

 

I opened 6 bags and got 18 tokens...I think i need 2 more bags before I can get my first piece.

 

I wish they'd throw in a random "naked" WF every now and then for fun..all you get is your weapon slot.

[Bbizzle]

This is a dangerous route to take. PvE gear is already better in PvP for certain classes and this might cause extreme pve/pvp balance issues.

 

^ This. For commandos 2 piece pve knocks their knock back cooldown down. And I've seen sages and scoundrels that want the pve bonuses over the pvp gear.

[Puja]

I think the players arguing for the uber gear are the actual carebears with a leaning toward PVE.

 

Real PVP is skill based.

 

Further along these lines I would love to see Warzones bracketed, 2-3 levels. PVP is my favorite part of the game, yet I know I will never be competitive with the very best, just like I would not be competitive in Major League baseball. I would keep Ilum a free for all though so there is some opportunity for large groups of people to play together in a more open environment.

 

Brackets mean rankings, and being the number one player on a server is much cooler than having the most uber gear.

[StealthStalker]

because pvp is more about competition than progression.

 

This is the most important thing to note during these discussions. Many seem to overlook it. Below is how I feel on the subject.

 

I don't understand complaints about leveling playing fields in PvP. I really couldn't care less about PvP gear so long as anyone who participates in PvP is on a relatively level playing field.

 

I don't care if you come from a PvE Raid background, you just hopped in yesterday, or this is the 1000th hour of your PvP fest. Gear wise, I'd like for everything to be pretty close. I want the end result determined mostly by play and not by gear.

 

Anything that gets more people actively PvP'ing is not a bad thing.

 

PvE on the other hand, progression is one of the primary allures of the entire experience. You must clear content, gear up (maybe not entirely, but enough to move on), and continue on through the content. Due to that, it isn't as feasible to primarily PvP and go right into PvE expecting to be on equal footing. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you enjoy PvE that's really just part of it. The sense of completion, then getting one of those last drops, and moving on.

 

They're two very different parts of the game, but they don't have to have an insurmountable wall in-between them.

 

PvE if you enjoy it, then come and PvP if you like. So long as everyone understands we're on equal footing, regardless of what else we've done in the past.

 

With that being said, I'm willing to give any any idea put forth a shot if it can bring us closer to such a PvP experience.

 

Personally I was happy with the Ward system put forth in Warhammer (that is, the later system after it underwent changes). Due to the way Wards worked, PvE gear did not have to increase exponentially to keep up with different tiers of content.

 

Wards simply made you sure you progressed through the appropriate content in order to continue to the next.