Who would win Star Wars or Warhammer40k

[KingKolKappi]

I love star wars but god emperor to stronk

[Foxfirega]

It's almost like we haven't discussed this before.

 

End of the day, it's apples to grenades, if you ask me. The setting designed to be a shameless excuse to shoot tiny spacemen on a table is, at it's core, going to be fundamentally better in an all-out-war situation then the one that's a space fantasy opera version of Journey to the West.

 

We can make comparisons all day, but it's kind of silly.

[Rhyltran]

I love Star Wars. I think anyone who reads this forum enough can see that. In universe vs universe. I usually vote Star Wars and give numerous reasons why. I love Star Wars more than any other "universe" out there. That being said, Warhammer 40k would grind SW into the ground.

[MasterEddard]

Well... for a romantic setting in time of political strife than Star Wars.

 

For pure, hardcore, brutality and destruction than Warhammer 40k... lol

 

 

So yeah Space Marines > Clones and mother****ing Grey Knights > Jedi Knights.

Edited February 2, 2012 by MasterEddard

[Bronze_Elemental]

The two universes aren't really compatible.

[KingKolKappi]

How are they not compatible

[Foxfirega]

How are they not compatible

 

Warhammer 40k's lore is entirely an excuse to give some backbone to what is essentially a tabletop strategy game. While there are some constants and some hard continuity to it, for the most part, it's intended to by design never be taken too seriously. The entire setting itself is a Cold War dystopian satire of a bitter, broken galaxy that is slowly dying out. It's a dark, brutal galaxy of constant war and strife.

 

In contrast, Star Wars is a far less darker place (because in the end, good always triumphs over evil, even if it takes a while). It's got a lot 'harder' continuity with more actual established lore. All of which is entirely the point - the combat doesn't matter, it's a vehicle to fuel the story. It's the polar opposite of 40k (where the story is an excuse for the action; Here, the action is an excuse for the story), and because of that it goes in an entirely different direction. Conflicts are smaller in scale. Things go in cycles of war/peace. Etc.

 

It would be easier to compare Star Trek and Star Wars, both of which had a more dramatic focus in general (though Star Trek still loses by taking a different path with it's science - mostly because Star Wars is 'space fantasy' not 'science fiction'), but even that doesn't really work. It's where a lot of comparisons generally fail, hard.

 

In this particular matchup, betting on the setting that wages war near constantly at far greater scale then the other setting has ever seen is a good bet if we look at it objectively. But, it's not a fair matchup on either side of the equation (Star Wars beats 40k up and down the street with story quality, whereas 40k wins in any scenario that ends up going into a war scenario).

 

We can compare and contrast, but it's kind of silly as both settings have vastly different goals, and generally achieve them.

[KingKolKappi]

Well I was never comparing their story strictly from a battle perspective

[Fyurii]

Going for 40K here. No contest.

As much of a Star Wars fan as I am, I'm not going to try and set a Jedi/Sith against the most powerful kinds of Psykers of 40K, or the Tyranids or Necrons.

 

Hell, the Imperial Fleet of the IoM could Roflstomp pretty much any thing in SW.

[The_strategos]

the weapon calculations for both Imperium cruisers and Imperial star destroyers are actually comparable, depending on which source you consider cannon.

[Foxfirega]

the weapon calculations for both Imperium cruisers and Imperial star destroyers are actually comparable, depending on which source you consider cannon.

 

And the main factors of comparison are that both have equivalent sublight speeds and direct firepower. The differences are that the 'maximum' range on a Star Destroyer is 'point defense cannon/boarding action' range on an Imperium of Man Cruiser (also produced in greater volume then a Star Destroyer), with more dedicated anti-ship weaponary exceeding the that of the Star Destroyer by ~20x (I forget the exact math off-hand; all of this is judging based on the scale presented in Battlefleet Gothic, which puts the standard range on an Imperium Cruiser at ~60,000KM or something like that).

 

Starfighters are also equivalent between the two universes, with a notable exception being that the IoM Lightning is almost twice as fast in-atmosphere as the fastest starfighter in Star Wars (The Jedi Starfighter during the Clone Wars era had a top speed 200km/h in atmosphere over that of the A-wing, because of the reflexes of the Jedi pilot being able to take that, clocking in at 1,500km/h. The Lightning, in direct contrast, has an in-atmosphere speed closer to 2,300km/h and uses it's Machine Spirit to allow the pilot to compensate). Weapon loadouts are far more comparable here and are almost directly equivalent.

 

It's not a contest. Star Wars is horribly outclassed going against the Imperium, even if we grant that Void Shields are not equivalent to Deflector Shields (as Imperium ships also have 2-3 times the dedicated armor of Star Wars ships because they have more to fear from ballistic and kinetic weaponary, in addition to boarding actions - boarding actions are incredibly more common in 40k then in Star Wars, and Imperium ships have far more dedicated defense troops as a result of that, making crew sizes larger). It's worth remembering that the Imperium doesn't build ships to be replaced - they build them to last for milennia, because they have to. There are some Imperial Battleships that have been in service since the Horus Heresy, in constant engagements and slugfests with not only entire fleets but other battleships that have yet to ever be destroyed.

 

If we get into one-off superweapons (Sun Crusher, Super Star Destroyers), the only thing I can say in response to that is 'Adeptus Mechanicus'. One of the standard weapons (if Arks Mechanicus even have standard layouts - let's just say incredibly common) for the Techpriests of Mars is the Conversion Beam, that does nothing but directly convert matter into energy. The denser, harder, and stronger the armor they come up against, the bigger the resulting energy burst. Also worth noting that the Arks Mechanicus are larger then even some Imperium Battleships (which average 7.5 to 9 kilometers in length, or about half the length of a Super Star Destroyer and no less well armed, in addition to being produced in greater volume) and are equipped with any number of weird things.

 

All of this is assuming an Inquisitor isn't on board to okay the use of more dangerous weapons (Class 2 Exterminatus Grade armaments).

 

Again, it'll never be a fair contest in this. The Imperium may not field bigger ships, but the ones it does field are some of the baddest things in any galaxy, and have the benefit of being produced in bulk. That's the benefit of having entire planets and star systems being nothing but large factories that do nothing but spew constant streams of war supplies and vehicles to fuel the millions of engagements the Imperium goes through on a daily basis. The Star Wars universe can't hope to compete with that level of mobilization. Period.

 

EDIT: Also ignoring the extreme difference in tactics between the two universes. Some of the stuff the Imperium does on a regular basis is less common in Star Wars, and it's reinforced in lore all over the place that outside of planetary shielding the Star Wars universe has no way to deal with orbital bombardment. It's standard procedure in the Imperium to open up with orbital bombardment on key resistance areas (read: cities with military presence, or where it's assumed the loss of will shock anything left standing into despair - killing non-combatants and civilians is perfectly acceptable in the Imperium, and if you're not okay with it, the Comissar knows exactly who to aim for when 'motivating' the rest of the troops) before launching dedicated seize-and-hold ground tactics.

 

Shields can be broken and overloaded, and it's not exactly like the Imperium isn't used to having to deal with that (a number of novels and sourcebooks point out situations similar).

Edited February 2, 2012 by Foxfirega

[areto]

Well as warhammer 40k is unlikely to build giant weapons with extremely convenient flaws, I think warhammer would win.

[Dwimmerlaik]

Scale-wise, I believe you can fit several Super Star Destroyers into *One* Space Marine Battle Barge.

 

It's really no contest. Warhammer would destroy anything Star Wars threw at it. And, even if it didn't, the God-Emperor would.

[Nhaz]

I gotta say you people..

 

 

the God emperor is ON Arakis Aka Dune. and he would kick every ones *** =>

 

 

enjoy..

[internaty]

This again?

 

Ok here is my point of view.

 

Star wars has but one chance agains the imperium of man and that chance is as small as a single brain cell.

 

and that is:

If they manage to kill the god-emperor of mankind.

 

Without the god emperor ships cannot jump trought the warp without being at risk to be forvever lost,

The horde's of chaos demons will rip apart what remains of the imperium and the rest of the 40k universe would be busy trying to find out who is the next big dog in the galaxie.

 

And the only way i see that happen is if a jedi so powerfull in the force manage to sneak in and kill the emperor.

 

Because even if you brought all the fleets from all star wars gamens and movie's agains holy tara all that will remain is ashes and dust of the prenamed fleet.

 

that said most of these argument are about one on one fights wich isnt fun or realist(and i use the word loosly) because in 40k the imperium has countless of enemies and the republic and sith arent gonne get along either just because there are suddely 20 more enemy empire's.

 

So in the most ideal and unlikly situation you got one republic/imperial fleet enterting the 40k universe and give it enought time to learn how to counter 40k in the worst case you got one adaptus astaries fleet(space marine fleet) in the sw univserse in that case it is witch way to corosant and the death of sw.

Edited February 2, 2012 by internaty

[Foxfirega]

And the only way i see that happen is if a jedi so powerfull in the force manage to sneak in and kill the emperor.

 

That's so beyond unfeasible that it's not even funny. :/ To paraphrase, one does not stroll easily onto All Holy Terra.

 

Ignoring the Emperor himself, the most powerful psykers in all of the Imperium, an entire Chapter of space marines that are the absolute pinnacle (and include a number of those aforementioned psykers), and the office of the Inquisition itself (which is designed to do nothing but hunt down aliens, daemons, and heretics - and specialize in dealing with enemy psychics, tricks, and shenanigans of all shapes and sizes in addition to also housing some truly fearsome psykers and seers in it's own right).

 

There is the absolute slimmest chance (defined purely as 'plot armor') of anyone being able to get past all that. If killing the Emperor were an easy thing, Horus would have done it a while ago. While we can argue he didn't exactly sneak in, it's because he knew full well that doing so was impossible and even then... he got farther then anyone in 40k history ever got (he actually wounded the Emperor himself).

 

If we assume that The Force and The Warp are dissimilar, then there's no way the Force would provide any shielding or defense at all from something it's not even related to and the second they showed up on Terra, they would be greeted (aggressively) by either the Adeptes Custodes or the Inquisition. Not a greeting you want.

 

If we assume that they're similar enough to have crossover and equivalency, then the only person that could possibly pull it off would be either Luke or Palpatine. And they couldn't make themselves invisible - they would still be hard-blocked by the sheer volume of blockage around the Golden Throne. There's only so much they'd be able to do that wouldn't be able to be countered.

 

Anyone lesser would have to deal with the massive Warp signature around the Golden Throne itself and just plain being outplayed by thousands of psykers actively looking for anything amiss (which is one of the main reasons Palpatine's trick worked so well - nobody was really looking for HIM). Anything at all.

 

There's also other things that make this a general, overall bad-plan, all in rumor/theory land in-canon for 40k:

 

1) Killing the Emperor will just force him to reincarnate into a new body (The Star Child theory).

2) If he dies, the ensuing fallout would create a new Eye of Terror and spawn a fifth Chaos God.

 

In point 1, doing so only gives the God Emperor of Mankind a new body and a reason for a crusade. In point 2, the Eldar likely wouldn't stand for having the deck stacked against them again and personally show up to deliver a curb-stomping (via the Webway portal tied to the Golden Throne itself, and likely having to fight through Chaos itself to get there) in person to whoever is stupid enough to attempt it (and why they haven't done so themselves). They're the greatest seers in the 40k universe and have been shown to show up and do things just to alter destiny in their favor.

 

Killing the Emperor isn't a cut-and-dry deal, and neither is blowing up Coruscant a sure death-blow for the SW setting itself (because that place seems to have Bad Crap happen to it with frequency).

 

The main reason comparisons tend to stick only to the Imperium and [insert government and era here] is because that's the only place you can make actual, legitimate comparisons. There's enough documentation on both sides to get hard math and figures, they're capable of being compared (unfavorably, as far as SW goes), and they're similar enough entities that it allows debate and discussion to actually go forward.

 

Any one of the other factions in 40k is fully capable of crushing the SW universe under their own power (except maybe the Tau) for any number of reasons. But it's hard to get solid information on that and how specifically it would go down entirely through lack of documentation. :U How fast does a Tyranid Hive Ship move, for example, and how large are they? The general answer for that seems to be 'as fast and large as plot demands', because it varies so much it's not even funny. And that's assuming that the Hive Ships shown are the 'largest', as there's a dozen and a half rumors of larger ones that are oddly never fully documented. What's the speed/loadout of an Eldar vessel, in specific? There's not a lot of information there, either, even looking at Battlefleet Gothic (which actually does have full data writeups of Imperium ships down to speed and size). What about Ork ships that aren't Space Hulks? Necron vessels in general?

 

Documentation holes abound. It's easier and more productive to stick to things that actually can be discussed then ones that are nebulous enough by design.

[billyboyjennings]

The differences are that the 'maximum' range on a Star Destroyer is 'point defense cannon/boarding action' range on an Imperium of Man Cruiser (also produced in greater volume then a Star Destroyer), with more dedicated anti-ship weaponary exceeding the that of the Star Destroyer by ~20x (I forget the exact math off-hand; all of this is judging based on the scale presented in Battlefleet Gothic, which puts the standard range on an Imperium Cruiser at ~60,000KM or something like that).

 

Hundreds of thousands of km stated.

 

“Hundreds of thousands of kilometres separated the fleets, yet prow-mounted laser batteries opened up, stabbing lances that shredded dozens of cult vessels. Several more exploded in blinding detonations as they advanced into the paths of incoming torpedoes.” - Pg. 41 Dark Creed

 

 

The Imperium may not field bigger ships, but the ones it does field are some of the baddest things in any galaxy, and have the benefit of being produced in bulk.

 

The Imperium does field some big ships.

 

“Imperial starships hung in the blackness between it and him: some vast, grey and vaulted like cathedrals twenty kilometres long, some bloated like oceanic titans; others long, lean and angular like his own frigate.” - Ghostmaker, Pg. 78

[Foxfirega]

Eh. Are those statements backed up and corroborated anywhere else? The standard Imperial Battleship is only ~7.5km to 9km long, stated in a number of places across a number of Battleship classes. I'm willing to grant that there may be some ships that are longer, but if there are, they're not very well documented at all and could just be author embellishment (which Star Wars is just as guilty of).

 

The range numbers I'm working with were also extrapolated from an abstraction system (Battlefleet Gothic) and as implied, there's a certain amount of 'fuzziness' built into those assessments and I'm not really going to question or argue the range issues.

 

The absolute short range on Star Wars ships was, likewise, extrapolated from other sources (namely all 6 movies and judging approximate distances) and also somewhat debatable, but the consistency with which ranges were used tend to suggest that it was slightly better then cinematic fluff (a few thousand kilometers was estimated to be the 'effective' battleship range during RotJ and AotC, for example).

[billyboyjennings]

That's so beyond unfeasible that it's not even funny. :/ To paraphrase, one does not stroll easily onto All Holy Terra.

 

Here's some quotes to back this up.

 

Holy Terra:

 

 

"Ragnar looked down upon the strange globe beneath him. The hemisphere glittered metallic silver in the daylight. There were patches of red upon it that might have been seas of rust. The lines of the ancient continents were gone. All that was left to suggest them were vague outlines where the density of buildings became even more intense along what had once been shorelines. Now the world wore metallic armour over its entire surface. It seemed fitting somehow.

Ragnar smiled; it was an astonishing feeling. The image was a familiar one. This was the birth world of humanity. He had seen the likeness so often that it was strange knowing that the planet was actually below him now, a glittering jewel set against the black velvet of space. Ragnar felt excitement build up in him.

This was where humanity had first reached for the stars, where the Emperor of Mankind was born and from where he had launched his great crusade. Where Horus had besieged the Imperial Palace and the future history of the galaxy had been decided.

This was the hub of the greatest Empire that had ever existed, a seat of government of incalculable power. Somewhere down there the Lords of the Administratum decided the fate of countless billions. Somewhere down there the Emperor lay half-alive within his golden throne. The primarchs had walked there amid the gardens and plasteel starscrapers. Russ had led the distant forebearers of the Chapter into battle on its soil. This was Earth, old and weighted with millennia of history. Soon he would join the countless trillions who had made the pilgrimage to its surface. Soon he would be part of everyday life down there.

He considered their approach. He knew that they had passed countless fortresses and fleets as they had swung in from the ultra-solar jump points. They had passed the armoured moons of Jupiter and the forge world of Mars. They had been subjected to hundreds of challenges and scans and they had been boarded twice. It had been a long drawn out process but it was only to be expected.

The world down there was better protected than any other planet in human history. There would not be a Second Battle of Earth if the terrible lords of the Imperium could help it. Even now, the sky was filled with satellite fortresses: great weapon installations with enough firepower to destroy battle fleets. The whole of sublunar space was crowded with warships. For once in his life, Ragnar felt insignificant." - Wolfblade, Pg. 77-78

 

 

Description of the continent-spanning Imperial Palace. It makes Palpatine's Imperial Palace look like a joke:

 

 

"If viewed from low orbit through the foul atmosphere, the continent-spanning palace was a concatenation of copulating, jewel-studded tortoise shells erupting into ornate monoliths, pyramids, and ziggurats kilometres high, pocked by landing pads, p.rickling with masts of antennae and weapons batteries. Whole cities were mere chambers in this palace, some grimly splendid, others despicable and deadly, and all crusted with the accretion of the ages." - The Inquisition War Omnibus, Pg. 87

 

"It was monumental. It was not so much an edifice as a handcrafted landmass. The artisan masters built it upon Terra’s greatest mountain range, and transformed the monstrous peaks into its bulwarks. It towered above a world laid to waste by centuries of war and perdition, and though that world was being rebuilt, with wondrous cities and architectural marvels blooming in the new age of Unity, nothing could match its magnificence. For it was beautiful, a euphoric vision of gold and silver. It was said that, when they had finished their task, the artisan masters of the Masonic guilds set down their tools and wept. By the time it was complete, it was the largest single man-made structure in known space. Its footings sank deep into the planet’s mantle, its towers probed the airless limits of the atmosphere. It owned the words ‘the palace’ wholly, without any need for qualification, as if no other palaces existed. He had blemished that glory. He had raised dark curtain walls around the golden halls, and cased the soaring towers in skins of armour ten metres thick. He had stripped away the jewelled facades and the crystelephantine ornamentation, the delicate minarets and the burnished cupolas, and in their places he had implanted uncountable turrets and ordnance emplacements. He had dug mighty earthworks out of the surrounding lowlands, and fortified them with a million batteries. He had yoked platforms into synchronous orbits to guard from above, their weapon banks armed and trained, day and night. He had put his men upon the walls, armoured in gold and set for the coming war.

....

A katabatic wind was coming in off the lower bulwarks that night. The palace was so immense, the precipice walls bred their own microclimate. Greasy stars swam in the heat ripple of the palace’s new reactors. The void shields were being tested again. Not a palace. Not the palace anymore, a fortress. Some of those sullen stars were orbital platforms, catching the last backscatter of the sunlight as Terra turned. Dorn put on a fur-edged robe that had been in his possession since his adolescence on Inwit, and went out to walk the parapets of the Dhawalagiri prospect, to dwell upon its beauty one last time. It was one of the last sections of the palace that remained untouched. Adamantium armour plates, drab prestressed rockcrete and auto-turrets had yet to blight its ethereal lines." - The Lightning Tower, Pg. 2-4

 

 

 

Invade Terra and kill the Emperor? Good luck...

Edited February 2, 2012 by billyboyjennings

[internaty]

That's so beyond unfeasible that it's not even funny. :/ To paraphrase, one does not stroll easily onto All Holy Terra.

 

Ignoring the Emperor himself, the most powerful psykers in all of the Imperium, an entire Chapter of space marines that are the absolute pinnacle (and include a number of those aforementioned psykers), and the office of the Inquisition itself (which is designed to do nothing but hunt down aliens, daemons, and heretics - and specialize in dealing with enemy psychics, tricks, and shenanigans of all shapes and sizes in addition to also housing some truly fearsome psykers and seers in it's own right).

 

There is the absolute slimmest chance (defined purely as 'plot armor') of anyone being able to get past all that. If killing the Emperor were an easy thing, Horus would have done it a while ago. While we can argue he didn't exactly sneak in, it's because he knew full well that doing so was impossible and even then... he got farther then anyone in 40k history ever got (he actually wounded the Emperor himself).

 

If we assume that The Force and The Warp are dissimilar, then there's no way the Force would provide any shielding or defense at all from something it's not even related to and the second they showed up on Terra, they would be greeted (aggressively) by either the Adeptes Custodes or the Inquisition. Not a greeting you want.

 

If we assume that they're similar enough to have crossover and equivalency, then the only person that could possibly pull it off would be either Luke or Palpatine. And they couldn't make themselves invisible - they would still be hard-blocked by the sheer volume of blockage around the Golden Throne. There's only so much they'd be able to do that wouldn't be able to be countered.

 

Anyone lesser would have to deal with the massive Warp signature around the Golden Throne itself and just plain being outplayed by thousands of psykers actively looking for anything amiss (which is one of the main reasons Palpatine's trick worked so well - nobody was really looking for HIM). Anything at all.

 

There's also other things that make this a general, overall bad-plan, all in rumor/theory land in-canon for 40k:

 

1) Killing the Emperor will just force him to reincarnate into a new body (The Star Child theory).

2) If he dies, the ensuing fallout would create a new Eye of Terror and spawn a fifth Chaos God.

 

In point 1, doing so only gives the God Emperor of Mankind a new body and a reason for a crusade. In point 2, the Eldar likely wouldn't stand for having the deck stacked against them again and personally show up to deliver a curb-stomping (via the Webway portal tied to the Golden Throne itself, and likely having to fight through Chaos itself to get there) in person to whoever is stupid enough to attempt it (and why they haven't done so themselves). They're the greatest seers in the 40k universe and have been shown to show up and do things just to alter destiny in their favor.

 

Killing the Emperor isn't a cut-and-dry deal, and neither is blowing up Coruscant a sure death-blow for the SW setting itself (because that place seems to have Bad Crap happen to it with frequency).

 

The main reason comparisons tend to stick only to the Imperium and [insert government and era here] is because that's the only place you can make actual, legitimate comparisons. There's enough documentation on both sides to get hard math and figures, they're capable of being compared (unfavorably, as far as SW goes), and they're similar enough entities that it allows debate and discussion to actually go forward.

 

Any one of the other factions in 40k is fully capable of crushing the SW universe under their own power (except maybe the Tau) for any number of reasons. But it's hard to get solid information on that and how specifically it would go down entirely through lack of documentation. :U How fast does a Tyranid Hive Ship move, for example, and how large are they? The general answer for that seems to be 'as fast and large as plot demands', because it varies so much it's not even funny. And that's assuming that the Hive Ships shown are the 'largest', as there's a dozen and a half rumors of larger ones that are oddly never fully documented. What's the speed/loadout of an Eldar vessel, in specific? There's not a lot of information there, either, even looking at Battlefleet Gothic (which actually does have full data writeups of Imperium ships down to speed and size). What about Ork ships that aren't Space Hulks? Necron vessels in general?

 

Documentation holes abound. It's easier and more productive to stick to things that actually can be discussed then ones that are nebulous enough by design.

 

I am well aware of that and i said the chance was as small as a single brain cell for that reson however let me point out 3 things:

 

1: the force is not the warp and if star wars has show anything it is that the force can do anything.(including getting a jedi to kill the god emperor) so there is your plot armor.

 

2:both theories are specualtions at best as gw never bother to make a follow up.

And even if either one prove's to be true the following chaos shoud still provide sw time to prepear for endless war.

 

After all armies learn from there enemies including tech weapons tatic's etc.

 

Tho if we stick to the you cant steal tech rule as many here keep believing then yes sw doesnt stand a chance even with the chaos following the emperor's death.

 

3:I am well aware that all the race's in 40k can roflstomp the sw armies however i said all 40k race's are to busy riping eatchother apart.

And as you keep repeating sw doesnt stand a chance agains there armies and can surviver by hidenen learning and planing.

 

All that said the chance of sw winning agains 40k can only be achieved as you called it plot armor(aka the force)

 

On more important note borg beats all humanoid race's.

[Foxfirega]

1: the force is not the warp and if star wars has show anything it is that the force can do anything.(including getting a jedi to kill the god emperor) so there is your plot armor.

 

That's a lazy excuse. :U I'm not going to bother debating it.

 

2:both theories are specualtions at best as gw never bother to make a follow up.

And even if either one prove's to be true the following chaos shoud still provide sw time to prepear for endless war.

 

Prepare for what? Something akin to the Yuuzhan Vong War, where the entire galaxy almost straight up lost if they hadn't thrown the Diplomacy Ball? How do you make deals with Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, or Orks, necessarily? Two of the four would only listen as long as it takes to kill you, and the other two would just roll over you without bothering to stop for parley. There's no preparations the Star Wars universe could do that would let them survive, at all.

 

The Imperium has been waging that war for thousands of years, and they have magnitudes greater manpower and industry then the Star Wars universe does. And they're still losing.

 

After all armies learn from there enemies including tech weapons tatic's etc.

 

The only factions that would be interested in this are the Imperium (ruled out for discussion's sake) and the Tau (who survive by being utterly ignored by the entire galaxy). The Big Four threats don't learn anything about their enemies - they destroy them and move on. Except possibly the Tyranids, who would absorb beneficial genetic material and add it to whatever passes for databanks for them (and now we have Force-wielding Tyranids. D: ).

 

Tho if we stick to the you cant steal tech rule as many here keep believing then yes sw doesnt stand a chance even with the chaos following the emperor's death.

 

The fact is, outside of Hyperdrive technology, there isn't anything that anyone in 40k could actually steal and benefit from. They either have it, have similar, or have better. Why would they bother to steal or jack anything? It would also take time that the SW universe doesn't have to reverse engineer things. And then how does that work, necessarily? Eldar technology operates on something that SW isn't capable of reproducing (even the Imperium can't reproduce wraithbone) and on technological principles both different and in some cases far more advanced. The same with the Tau - they have such a radically different view on how things work and are using principles that are 100% guaranteed to be 'alien' and almost incomprehnsible to anyone but the Tau (and that includes the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors and Techpriests that are assigned to do just that). Ork technology is straight up listed as not working for anyone else but them (and the fact it works for them is still the biggest mystery ever devised - stupid Orks). Necron technology is the most advanced stuff in the entire 40k universe, and it also works on principles that would seem bizarre and almost irreplicable to outside observers.

 

You know why it's not a point of discussion? Because it's unlikely and needlessly complicates things. Neither side, during an all-out open war, would have the time or resources to waste on it (well, the Imperium would, but they'd outlaw it for anyone but the Adeptus Mechanicus, making it a moot point anyway. They'd see it in 75 years when it was deemed 'safe').

 

The fun fact is, both the Imperium and the Star Wars universe have hit technological 'plateaus' and innovation isn't exactly a common thing. And neither is research.

 

3:I am well aware that all the race's in 40k can roflstomp the sw armies however i said all 40k race's are to busy riping eatchother apart.

And as you keep repeating sw doesnt stand a chance agains there armies and can surviver by hidenen learning and planing.

 

Survive how? Bringing up the Tau again as the easiest example here, but the grand majority of the 40k universe outright ignores them. When they don't, however (being in the direct path of an Ork WAAAAGH, or in the projected path of a Tyranid Hive Fleet), they generally only manage to do well by being so much more advanced then everyone around them. And they lose a lot of ground even then.

 

That's not survival, that's plot armor. And irrelevant, because 'surviving' isn't 'winning' - it's loosing and not doing so completely.

 

All that said the chance of sw winning agains 40k can only be achieved as you called it plot armor(aka the force)

 

The Force is not plot armor. It's often a vehicle for plot armor, but it's been pretty well documented on things that are/aren't possible and what things are 'feasible' enough to expect even from exceptional individuals. 'Plot armor' is Lord Kaldor Draigo (fated to die only against one specific opponent, and unbeatable by anyone else) or Palpatine all throughout the Prequels (his Force Mask technique was the vehicle for the plot armor, but the 'plot armor' was not being outed as Sith in the first place).

 

On more important note borg beats all humanoid race's.

 

Debatable, and an entirely different topic at any rate. Keep the scarecrows in Oz, pal. :|

 

(DISCLAIMER: This post may contain attempts at humor.)

[internaty]

That's a lazy excuse. :U I'm not going to bother debating it.

 

 

 

Prepare for what? Something akin to the Yuuzhan Vong War, where the entire galaxy almost straight up lost if they hadn't thrown the Diplomacy Ball? How do you make deals with Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, or Orks, necessarily? Two of the four would only listen as long as it takes to kill you, and the other two would just roll over you without bothering to stop for parley. There's no preparations the Star Wars universe could do that would let them survive, at all.

 

The Imperium has been waging that war for thousands of years, and they have magnitudes greater manpower and industry then the Star Wars universe does. And they're still losing.

 

 

 

The only factions that would be interested in this are the Imperium (ruled out for discussion's sake) and the Tau (who survive by being utterly ignored by the entire galaxy). The Big Four threats don't learn anything about their enemies - they destroy them and move on. Except possibly the Tyranids, who would absorb beneficial genetic material and add it to whatever passes for databanks for them (and now we have Force-wielding Tyranids. D: ).

 

 

 

The fact is, outside of Hyperdrive technology, there isn't anything that anyone in 40k could actually steal and benefit from. They either have it, have similar, or have better. Why would they bother to steal or jack anything? It would also take time that the SW universe doesn't have to reverse engineer things. And then how does that work, necessarily? Eldar technology operates on something that SW isn't capable of reproducing (even the Imperium can't reproduce wraithbone) and on technological principles both different and in some cases far more advanced. The same with the Tau - they have such a radically different view on how things work and are using principles that are 100% guaranteed to be 'alien' and almost incomprehnsible to anyone but the Tau (and that includes the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors and Techpriests that are assigned to do just that). Ork technology is straight up listed as not working for anyone else but them (and the fact it works for them is still the biggest mystery ever devised - stupid Orks). Necron technology is the most advanced stuff in the entire 40k universe, and it also works on principles that would seem bizarre and almost irreplicable to outside observers.

 

You know why it's not a point of discussion? Because it's unlikely and needlessly complicates things. Neither side, during an all-out open war, would have the time or resources to waste on it (well, the Imperium would, but they'd outlaw it for anyone but the Adeptus Mechanicus, making it a moot point anyway. They'd see it in 75 years when it was deemed 'safe').

 

The fun fact is, both the Imperium and the Star Wars universe have hit technological 'plateaus' and innovation isn't exactly a common thing. And neither is research.

 

 

 

Survive how? Bringing up the Tau again as the easiest example here, but the grand majority of the 40k universe outright ignores them. When they don't, however (being in the direct path of an Ork WAAAAGH, or in the projected path of a Tyranid Hive Fleet), they generally only manage to do well by being so much more advanced then everyone around them. And they lose a lot of ground even then.

 

That's not survival, that's plot armor. And irrelevant, because 'surviving' isn't 'winning' - it's loosing and not doing so completely.

 

 

 

The Force is not plot armor. It's often a vehicle for plot armor, but it's been pretty well documented on things that are/aren't possible and what things are 'feasible' enough to expect even from exceptional individuals. 'Plot armor' is Lord Kaldor Draigo (fated to die only against one specific opponent, and unbeatable by anyone else) or Palpatine all throughout the Prequels (his Force Mask technique was the vehicle for the plot armor, but the 'plot armor' was not being outed as Sith in the first place).

 

 

 

Debatable, and an entirely different topic at any rate. Keep the scarecrows in Oz, pal. :|

 

(DISCLAIMER: This post may contain attempts at humor.)

 

I disagree with your assesment that the force aint plot armor.

If anything it is show time and time againt that to force guide's certain people to do destined thing's.

 

Example nobody could kill malak or raven because they where ment to fight.

Same for the exile beat the 3 sith lords.

 

But for the sake of avoid the hole who is the stronger god disucssion i yield.

[Foxfirega]

I disagree with your assesment that the force aint plot armor.

If anything it is show time and time againt that to force guide's certain people to do destined thing's.

 

Example nobody could kill malak or raven because they where ment to fight.

Same for the exile beat the 3 sith lords.

 

But for the sake of avoid the hole who is the stronger god disucssion i yield.

 

Meetra Surik and Revan both had plot armor, as did Malak, Sion, Nihilius, and Traya.

 

The Hero is always predestined in any good story (and/or game) to slay the Big Bad, his Dragon, and his Legion of Doom.

 

Are we going to segue into arguing the semantics of plot armor? Because I can save us time.

 

EDIT: Ask Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura, Ki Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, and Mace Windu how they feel about the Force being invincible plot armor. Go ahead. I'll wait. Or what about Darth Maul, Ventress, Dooku, and Plagueis?

 

It's entirely back to what I said before - the setting designed to be an excuse for combat to happen is going to beat out the setting designed for good stories to happen with maybe some story-driven combat on the side. Why? Because the other is designed for blowing stuff up from the start.

 

That's all there is to it here. As a setting, 40k is going to brutalize a lot of popular sci-fi settings because the grand majority of those aren't about making the biggest, baddest combaty stuff in the galaxy. That's poor storytelling. They're about telling good stories.

 

In contrast, Warhammer 40k isn't about telling good stories (though it has some pretty awesome fluff when we don't let Matt Ward write any of it). It's about brutal, over-the-top, grim, dark violence and massive, aggressive overcompensation with extreme prejudice (which is a long way of saying 'nuke it from orbit so hard it's ancestors feel it'). If it comes down to a fight or slugfest, in any way, shape, or form, 40k is going to decimate.

 

Comparisons are silly, with this data in mind. But, I'm fine with being silly about it.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Foxfirega

[internaty]

If it comes down to a fight or slugfest, in any way, shape, or form, 40k is going to decimate.

 

Yes i know,

That is why i keep saying plot armor is the only way sw has a chance.

 

But i stick with my point about the force being plot armor in sw.

 

Sure everyone not favored by the force is screwed but i never said it was fair:P

 

EDIT: i read somewhere that the emperor in swtor can kill a entire planet same way nillus could.

 

How would holy tarra defend agains a person who can kill a entire planet with strenght of will alone.

 

And keep it mind is that the force binds all living thing's and that nillius "eats" the worlds he drains of life using the force.

 

I didnt know galaticus was a sith?

Edited February 2, 2012 by internaty

[Foxfirega]

Yes i know,

That is why i keep saying plot armor is the only way sw has a chance.

 

But i stick with my point about the force being plot armor in sw.

 

Sure everyone not favored by the force is screwed but i never said it was fair:P

 

That's my point - if it's not fair, it's not Plot Armor. At best, it's the Plot Mobile and only The Hero and/or his Five Man Band get the keys. Fueled by Plot, and only gives protection when you're behind the wheel.

 

What's that, Shaggy? You want to drive? Back of the van, hippy.

 

Banking your only chance for survival on plot armor is a poor way to actually have an objective discussion. :/

 

EDIT: As an example of what I mean by the Plot Armor bit above, Fate and Destiny are grade-A plot armor. If you have one or the other working in your favor, it doesn't matter at all what happens next. You're going to do what you need to do, when you need to do it. It applies the same to everyone. It's not a vehicle for Plot Armor, it is the plot armor.

 

The same is clearly not true of The Force. It can, however, act as a vehicle for Plot Armor of all sorts. Which at best puts it in the same Plot Mobile level as Magic. It's not Plot Armor itself, but it can give you the excuse you need to suspend disbelief enough to get the Plot Armor handwave off successfully.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Foxfirega