Vegathegreat Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Bioware already has a bolster buff in the game, so technically to could easily normalize everyone's stats in warzones regardless of the gear equipped. PvP is about competition and like any competitive game or sport, every player should be on an even playing field. Not only does it make sense, but it also makes it easier for Bioware to balance the classes when gear is not a factor. There are many way to provide a sense of progression to the players even if gear does not affect your performance. Take the orange gear for example, PvPing could reward commendations that allow you to purchase orange gear of the skin that you want. Some skins could be valor locked or require more commendations than others so that obtaining that one rare skin becomes an accomplishment. This would be great, because the PvP would be all about skill, the classes would be easier to balance and you could customize your character to look just the way you want it. The foundation is already in place too, all Bioware has to do is tweak the bolster buff, change the PvP rewards and then BOOM .. instant competitive PvP with a sense of progression. STILL DONT GET IT !!! The MAJORITY of MMO players want to progress through gear to become stronger than the rest, they dont really care about equal competition, and the ones that do know it exists once you have all the gear.......... DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? my statements do not represent my own views, they represent the views of the MAJORITY, the people playing right now instead of typing in this forum, the people who play allday, the people who will PAY the BILLS..... can you people stop being so thick headed Edited February 1, 2012 by Vegathegreat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belialle Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) STILL DONT GET IT !!! The MAJORITY of MMO players want to progress through gear to become stronger than the rest, they dont really care about equal competition, and the ones that do know it exists once you have all the gear.......... DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? my statements do not represent my own views, they represent the views of the MAJORITY, the people playing right now instead of typing in this forum, the people who play allday, the people who will PAY the BILLS..... can you people stop being though thick headed Whoa, now. You sound pretty angry, there, tiger. It might be time to take a break from the forums for a while. Nap time! Edited February 1, 2012 by belialle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shendaar Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 STILL DONT GET IT !!! The MAJORITY of MMO players want to progress through gear to become stronger than the rest, they dont really care about equal competition, and the ones that do know it exists once you have all the gear.......... DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? You are not the majority so stop spreading ********. You do not have any statistics to prove your argument, so what you are saying is nothing more than your own personal opinion. Do you understand that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegathegreat Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Whoa, now. You sound pretty angry, there, tiger. It might be time to take a break from the forums for a while. Nap time! LOL if only you could take naps at work..... but seriously the quicker people accept the MMO genre and decide if it is for them or not the quicker all this rubish about gear and equal stats goes away, it will never change.....gw2 will try a diffrent approach to pvp but most likely will fail cuz a very large amount of people who play mmo's want the gear advantage....it is as simple as that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shendaar Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 GW2 has both. Gear progression in Open PvP and normalized stats in organized pvp. Makes total sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogolp Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Right or wrong, people want progression through gear. Otherwise, just remove gear altogether. Make it so there is no gear for pve or pvp... But in the end, people want progression through gear. It is the carrot on a stick. It is the reason even FPS games now have ranks and levels and unlocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptical Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) what does a therapist have to do with wanting to be your own hero like you see in the movies? i mean seriously thats what games are for, to allow people to have fun with there own fantasy or gaming experience. If you dont want to grind gear to become a hero stronger than the others then MMO's are not for you, w.t.f is so hard to understand about this....... in the end once you have all the gear then you compete against the others who have all the gear.......its a very simple concept Just because you see things in a certain light doesn't mean that there is a silent majority that backs you up? If you play video games to make yourself feel better at the expense of others you need to seek counseling. That's not a joke, stab, or insult. It's psychologically unhealthy and it's not a good practice to reaffirm unhealthy behavior because that leads to the development of neurosis. Saying that "everyone who is in the game agrees with what I'm posting here, they are just too content to go to forums" is complete and utter bull *****. It's simply not true and you can't co-opt whoever you feel like into your nameless faceless "majority". That's called baseless and adds absolutely no credibility or plausibility to your arguments. All of that being said, PvP stats on gear adds an unnecessary barrier to the entry of end-game PvP by forcing everyone who reaches level 50 to endure the endless cycle of one-sided engagements until they've gotten enough currency to purchase gear that is on par with the people who have been at end-game longer. This rewards the people who trivialize content by rushing blindly through it and then starting a chain of complaining. They keep doing it though because it gives them an artificial advantage until the rest of the game's population catches up. That's usually when these "uber" "leet" "pros" move on to another game where they can find an artificial advantage because they have no real concept of sportsmanship and fair play. Look how hard people rage when classes are tweaked to be more in-line with each other. They turn into rabid tantrum throwing jerks. That's the by-product of perpetuating unhealthy behavior for prolonged periods of time. This whole cycle of behavior has lead to some really bad trends in MMORPGs. Edited February 1, 2012 by Skeptical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belialle Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) LOL if only you could take naps at work..... but seriously the quicker people accept the MMO genre and decide if it is for them or not the quicker all this rubish about gear and equal stats goes away, it will never change.....gw2 will try a diffrent approach to pvp but most likely will fail cuz a very large amount of people who play mmo's want the gear advantage....it is as simple as that Take off your clothes, stuff them with cookies from the vending machine or something, and prop it up at your desk. Meanwhile, you crawl under the desk for a nice, refreshing nap. I understand that gear progression is just something that comes with MMOs, but I don't see why that means it's something that should always be the case. I'm sure that they could find some other way to prey on the OCD tendencies of MMO players to keep them subscribed. Edited February 1, 2012 by belialle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The success of MMO games isnt enough, the billions blizzard has made? This is a horrible point ^ By this logic every MMO needs gnomes, because WoW had them... WoW made a lot of money and that proves the majority of players want gnomes in every MMO. Sadly, this flawed logic is pretty much how Bioware designed the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptical Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Take off your clothes, stuff them with cookies from the vending machine or something, and prop it up at your desk. Meanwhile, you crawl under the desk for a nice, refreshing nap. I understand that gear progression is just something that comes with MMOs, but I don't see why that means it's something that should always be the case. I'm sure that they could find some other way to prey on the OCD tendencies of MMO players to keep them subscribed. Exactly. It's shameful that there are so many simpletons who adopt the mantra: "It's always been like this so there is no other way". It's like the sad sods that always vote to side with the political faction that their parents, grandparents, and so on voted with. I guess it's the old school American way, but times have definitely changed. It's too bad the masses are trying really hard not to change with them. Edited February 1, 2012 by Skeptical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLLaDeLpHLife Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I have yet to see any statistics that back up your claim. I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll about how effective people wanted gear to be in PVP. It was overwhelmingly in favor of gear having as little impact on PVP as possible. PVEers want gear progression. Real PVPers don't need it, at least not to the level of gearflation stupidity that it gets taken in some games that think they are making good PVP. Beta forum players represent a small minority of swtor players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyssandra Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 OP - Not sure what makes you think you represent the majority? The posts on your own thread seem to negate that opinion. I PVP to pit my skill against another person. I don't PVP to pit my gear against another person's gear. I love dressing up my toons - something akin to the progression you speak of - but that can very easily be achieved through skins - elite gear sets that make my toon look cuter/ nastier/ etc but I have no expectation that such gear should give me an actual advantage in PVP. Just because it is so in SWTOR doesn't mean that: a) The majority want gear advantage in PVP b) Gear advantage in PVP is something inherent to MMOs and not having gear advantage would cease to make SWTOR a MMO. c) Not having a gear advantage in PVP would make SWTOR a FPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptical Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Beta forum players represent a small minority of swtor players Actually, since you have no way of polling every player that has played, is playing, or has played in the past, this game or any other MMORPG with PvP in it; you have absolutely no way whatsoever to either confirm or deny ANY statistics that represents the interests of the "majority" or any minority for that matter. None of you can. Neither can I. So please stop trying to back up your opinions with statistics that you are all clearly pulling out of your rear ends. Pretty please, with sugar on top, learn to communicate without trying to resort to this tactic to lend your arguments more credence. I promise it doesn't... at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmiles Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The operative word you're all grabbing for is *advantage*... everyone wants to play with an advantage... be it through gear, class, racials, gimmicks, exploits... what have you. If everything was truly equal and fair... you'd have a stalemate. You say you want things to be equal but if you have to spam everything for 30 minutes straight on one another and still no one is dead... well you'd find it far more frustrating than getting beat down in a split second for all eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptical Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The operative word you're all grabbing for is *advantage*... everyone wants to play with an advantage... be it through gear, class, racials, gimmicks, exploits... what have you. If everything was truly equal and fair... you'd have a stalemate. You say you want things to be equal but if you have to spam everything for 30 minutes straight on one another and still no one is dead... well you'd find it far more frustrating than getting beat down in a split second for all eternity. Not true at all. Why do you think Football (soccer), American Football, Rugby, Basketball, ect. have been around for so damn long? How about Chess? It's a perfectly mirrored board. That game has been around for a very, very long time and people are still enjoying and competing in it to this very day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobings Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) The problem, right now, is that stand-alone PVP isn't varied, exciting, and bug free enough to have no rewards. There has to be something to work for. Be that gear, or whatever, I don't really care but I can promise you that whatever it is the people who don't have it will complain just like they do now about gear. Edited February 1, 2012 by Scoobings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiricahua Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Calling shenanigans on a bogus claim. Most level 90's in SWG got comparable crafted gear through vendors. Eventually even heroic jewelry could be bought and sold. So basically the only thing that differentiated players were buffs (which could be bought), your talent tree spec, and player skill. Edited February 1, 2012 by Chiricahua Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobings Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 OP - Not sure what makes you think you represent the majority? The posts on your own thread seem to negate that opinion. I PVP to pit my skill against another person. I don't PVP to pit my gear against another person's gear. I love dressing up my toons - something akin to the progression you speak of - but that can very easily be achieved through skins - elite gear sets that make my toon look cuter/ nastier/ etc but I have no expectation that such gear should give me an actual advantage in PVP. Just because it is so in SWTOR doesn't mean that: a) The majority want gear advantage in PVP b) Gear advantage in PVP is something inherent to MMOs and not having gear advantage would cease to make SWTOR a MMO. c) Not having a gear advantage in PVP would make SWTOR a FPS DCUO tried a game mode where all players could select precreated characters called "legends" where everyone had the same gear and all the characters were on an even playing field. That battlefield served as a purpose for people without gear to gear up but NOTHING MORE. Why? Because people want to play their character, with their benefits, and they want to see those benefits apply in PVP. /thread right there. All the games who have tried to have gear be a non-factor either failed, or caved to the overwhelming majority demanding something to work for in PVP. DAOC isn't even an exception because it eventually adopted gear to work for in PVP. The game you want is called a MOBA, and I think you'd enjoy that a lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidJustice Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Ah, but "grow stronger" should be through practice and improvement of one's skills. The force has lead me to feel you watch Day 9... lol... gear progression is ok... if it's kept really shallow and basically meaningless outside of o damn look he has x-gear... must be really good ... which is how gear should be... Gear should give very minor stat increases but be prestegious... and hard to obtain... or it should be lootable when we and my droogz come and pop u in tha dark alley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazikeen Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I have yet to see any statistics that back up your claim. I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll about how effective people wanted gear to be in PVP. It was overwhelmingly in favor of gear having as little impact on PVP as possible. PVEers want gear progression And this is a PvE game. Guess who wins in that fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLLaDeLpHLife Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Actually, since you have no way of polling every player that has played, is playing, or has played in the past, this game or any other MMORPG with PvP in it; you have absolutely no way whatsoever to either confirm or deny ANY statistics that represents the interests of the "majority" or any minority for that matter. None of you can. Neither can I. So please stop trying to back up your opinions with statistics that you are all clearly pulling out of your rear ends. Pretty please, with sugar on top, learn to communicate without trying to resort to this tactic to lend your arguments more credence. I promise it doesn't... at all. Wrong. There'd less than 20k threads in this section alone. That alone tells me forum posters are a minority.. especially when you are talking beta Try again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegathegreat Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 The bottom line is blizzard figured out what people want, they want to gear up and gain an advantage over others.....that is the majority, and if you want a piece of the pie you gotta go this route. of course some people out there want fair and competitive gameplay but realistically in this genre it will only be achieved if you go and get the best gear and play others with the best gear. If you do not stay BiS then you will not compete vs others equally, end of story. So just ask yourself, is the mainstream MMO for you or do you a selective MMO like GW2......for some of you this sucks cuz you want the star wars one to be the one that you play, but starwars first and formost has to make the game for the majority of the MMO playerbase.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperI Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I have yet to see any statistics that back up your claim. I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll about how effective people wanted gear to be in PVP. It was overwhelmingly in favor of gear having as little impact on PVP as possible. PVEers want gear progression. Real PVPers don't need it, at least not to the level of gearflation stupidity that it gets taken in some games that think they are making good PVP. Actually I agree with the OP and I remember your thread on the beta boards. Your thread attracted those people who agreed with you. I read it and didn't respond/vote because I wasn't interested in your topic. I figured gear progression was already a part of the game and it wasn't worth my time to repsond to things that weren't going to happen. However, there are games out there that cater to the type of non-gear progression gameplay that you advocate for. League of Legends and other MOBA type games as well as FPS games offer GREAT PvP experiences and don't involve gear progression. MMOs are for those of us who want to build a character over the long term and not have that progress reset after every match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobings Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I keep seeing arguements for skill progression, but someone explain to me how that is in any way different than progressing through gear? If you have more skills at your disposal than you have an inherent advantage, the same as gear. Then people will be on the forums complaining that "Skill X" is too good, or too hard to achieve, and should be removed because "PVP should be based on skill not progression." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegathegreat Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 I keep seeing arguements for skill progression, but someone explain to me how that is in any way different than progressing through gear? If you have more skills at your disposal than you have an inherent advantage, the same as gear. Then people will be on the forums complaining that "Skill X" is too good, or too hard to achieve, and should be removed because "PVP should be based on skill not progression." they refer to player skill and practice i assume....which goes hand in hand with grinding it out and learning everything the game has to offer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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