Hardmode bosses need mechanics not unfairness

[Loendar]

Ok lets get rid of enrage timers.

 

New group comp

 

1 tank

7 healers

 

Raid time = don't expenct to leave anytime soon

 

 

People don't like enrage becaues it forces dps to be good. Most dps like to derp and be bad and enrage timers hitting isn't a bad mechanic, but one that directly shows that the dps DID NOT DO THEIR JOB.

 

Answered and debunked over and over. Good try though.

[smokybones]

First off, this has been a tiring read of this entire thread, but I will try to throw my input into the ring.

 

First off, I have only played WoW as my only other MMO experience, so maybe I am a little under-qualified to respond appropriately, but here it goes. I have done the Hard Modes and the Operations in this game. There are a few interesting mechanics, like Soa and Kiragga, but other than that it is few and far between. I have no problem with the enrage mechanic, but when I first did Hard Modes, it did upset me that it was basically dependent on DPS. My friends are Marauder's and Sorcerer's, not exactly top tier DPS in this game, especially when you are fresh level 50. Made it a little rough, but we managed. My point being, there is something just lacking in this game as far as end game content, and while some fights are quite enjoyable, most make me shake my head.

 

I have no problem with Annihilation Droid at the beginning of EV being a complete gear check, with a hard enrage timer, but the rest of the fights should get a little more creative. Gharj for example, instead of a hard enrage, maybe add more health, but the longer the fight goes, the littler the platform gets so that everyone takes the pounce damage. The pylons is a little different, because you cannot really do much with that, but do not get me started on that fourth boss. Free loot, basically the chess event of SWTOR, which is whatever.

 

I am hoping Bioware used these opening months to view how the community was getting through content, and will react with a game changing raid that will keep most guilds busy for a good amount of time. There will be those guilds that will be able to clear it rather quickly, but nothing can truly stop that. With the new flashpoint/added bosses to Kiragga's there is hope, but something has to be done soon. Story can only get you so far, and hard enrage timers, although somewhat effective, are quite boring.

[Loendar]

Yes because MUDs surely had raid encounters, I didn't even include them because they are in no way the same as the current genre of MMO.

 

Okay so let's go how raids in EQ1 functioned.

The zones weren't instanced, so you could bring EVERYONE you wanted to. Bosses did not have combat pulses, so you could also get out of combat. So healing in these type of games (was a healer rotation of meditating, blowing your mana, backing up and regenning while someone else took your place. If you were an important healer like a paladin, you would die and get rezzed by a necromancer. Again, the dps requirement wasn't the factor the HEALING factor was. Why does your brain not grasp in today's games this is NOT the case. In today's game healing is fairly UNLIMITED so they can concentrate on other aspects of the fight.

 

But this type of gaming model seems fun to you?

 

 

I didn't start the 'experience compare' conversation - you did. I'm just likely the only one in the thread that was paid heartily to actually design content for a multi-user game that people paid hourly to play.

 

No - there were no raids. That doesn't mean that I can't recognize a bad mechanic now when I see one implemented.

 

As for the EQ1 example - I played that extensively and it had its own host of issues that you very succinctly point out. And you know what - they have addressed those in future generations of MMO's still without putting a timer on the encounter.

 

There are good ways and bad ways to do things - lazy/easy or complicated/structured. I'm arguing in favor of not using a punishing mechanic that artificially gates content on a timer. That doesn't do anything to make rewarding content.

[IThrowRocks]

Answered and debunked over and over. Good try though.

 

How am I possibly wrong? Group comp was sarcasm obviously.

 

 

What is the point of a tank getting better items? To be able to take more damage and require less healing. This is important because as you progress raid encounters will hit the tank harder

 

What is the point of a healer getting better items? Better heals to keep the tank/group alive so they don't run out of resources and let people die. As you progress there is more damage so you need to get a better bang for your buck on heals.

 

What is the point of a dps getting better items? Well better items lead to more damage right? Without enrage timers geared dps are simply a novelty. There are some mechanics (such as the prisons in last eternity vault boss) that tests dps in an alternative way, but not every fight can have something like this or it’ll get too repetitive.

 

The bottom line is that the dps needs to fulfill their role. Tanks get better at mitigation to better stay alive as bosses hit harder. Healers heal quicker and more efficiently as more damage is introduced into encounters. And dps become better at dealing damage so they can deal more damage in the allotted time.

[Daovin]

Please name the kind of mechanic you wish to see a boss perform for "the fight has gone on too long".

 

Preferably a boss already existing in the game.

 

Keep in mind the nigh-unlimited resources.

[Loendar]

How am I possibly wrong? Group comp was sarcasm obviously.

 

 

What is the point of a tank getting better items? To be able to take more damage and require less healing. This is important because as you progress raid encounters will hit the tank harder

 

What is the point of a healer getting better items? Better heals to keep the tank/group alive so they don't run out of resources and let people die. As you progress there is more damage so you need to get a better bang for your buck on heals.

 

What is the point of a dps getting better items? Well better items lead to more damage right? Without enrage timers geared dps are simply a novelty. There are some mechanics (such as the prisons in last eternity vault boss) that tests dps in an alternative way, but not every fight can have something like this or it’ll get too repetitive.

 

The bottom line is that the dps needs to fulfill their role. Tanks get better at mitigation to better stay alive as bosses hit harder. Healers heal quicker and more efficiently as more damage is introduced into encounters. And dps become better at dealing damage so they can deal more damage in the allotted time.

 

All of the things that you listed are in spite of an enrage timer, not because of it. The timer, in and of itself, doesn't impose any requirements on you other than not hitting a specific time of day.

[Merraith]

I'm arguing in favor of not using a punishing mechanic that artificially gates content on a timer. That doesn't do anything to make rewarding content.

 

Just as some of us are arguing in favor of a mechanic that actually pushes us as dps to play a little smarter and better from attempt to attempt. It's all how you perceive it. I'd be perfectly okay with a hard enrage not being the ONLY way to test dps on an encounter...but I still think every fight should have that timer on it, even if it's a longer one on fights that use different mechanics. I like all versions of the dps check...I just don't think any fight should reward mere survivability. THAT doesn't do anything to make rewarding content.

[Loendar]

Please name the kind of mechanic you wish to see a boss perform for "the fight has gone on too long".

 

Preferably a boss already existing in the game.

 

Keep in mind the nigh-unlimited resources.

 

Actually - I guess that is probably the crux of why we are having such a horrible time understanding each other. I don't think that mechanic needs to exist at all unless it makes sense to the context of the encounter.

 

You are fighting on a ship and the airlock is going to blow in five minutes, great - timer away and let me see it.

 

There is zero reason to punish people for attempting content. If they can't do the DPS or heal through the fight they won't win and everyone here fighting to keep the noobs out of their l33t areas will continue to be satisfied. If I'm winning the fight that means I'm doing the same things you are and I deserve to win without being told I have five minutes to do it in.

[IThrowRocks]

All of the things that you listed are in spite of an enrage timer, not because of it. The timer, in and of itself, doesn't impose any requirements on you other than not hitting a specific time of day.

 

Please elaborate?

 

Hitting X damage in Y time units places an average dps output every damage class needs to put out in order to fulfill the encounter.

 

As you move from normal to hard to NM the hp pools of bosses increases

 

-Deal X dmg in ten minutes

-Obtain gear

-Deal Y damange in ten minutes

-Obtain gear

-Deal Z damange in ten minutes

[Loendar]

Just as some of us are arguing in favor of a mechanic that actually pushes us as dps to play a little smarter and better from attempt to attempt. It's all how you perceive it. I'd be perfectly okay with a hard enrage not being the ONLY way to test dps on an encounter...but I still think every fight should have that timer on it, even if it's a longer one on fights that use different mechanics. I like all versions of the dps check...I just don't think any fight should reward mere survivability. THAT doesn't do anything to make rewarding content.

 

Then it is just a basic difference of opinion on what counts as fun/engaging content.

 

I find a 'you lose' button every bit as offensive as an 'i win' button.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Loendar

[Foenixz]

Most of the hardmode content is ok, but for christ's sake: The endboss fight is a total joke. On Rep side almost undoable. (Imp gets favoured by the devs as we all know and the advantage that peefs me in PvP - iE Animation times to apply damage etc - clearly makes it almost a cakewalk in comparison I would imagine) But that is besides the point. The point is this: Who the hell came up with the ill fated idea to have a 2 MINUTE (!!!!) enrage timer on a hardmode boss that is there to gear up for OPS if you need OPS gear to beat the enrage timer?

 

Look we are not noobs here. We are amongst some of the most experienced MMO players out there and trust me that we know what we are doing. If I cannot beat a boss after 100k repair bill (also who the hell conceived these repair prices btw????????? Belongs fired!)and like 15 wipes and trying everything I say one thing: This is either bugged or total nonsense design.

 

It's like: It's a hardmode, let's make him hit for 12k with 2 crystals in a row and whack a super-short enrage timer on. That'll do!

 

 

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

What you need is better and more mechanics not the same **** just 100 levels tougher and with unfairness triumph enrage timers. BioWare this is not fun - this is plain stupid and game breaking for me. An enrage timer belongs to an OPS - NOT IN A HARDMODE!!!

This is just plain rubbish!!!!!

 

Oh and I cannot await all the trash replies I expect telling me how I suck and we are just bad players and all this crap. No we aren't . But the boss fight designers should steal more from Blizzard tbh. <------And I NEVER thought I would say that, but WoW boss encounters are cool, because hardmodes ADD mechanics not unfairness!!!!!!!!!!!

 

As it is-I will not progress because I cannot. So I will play another alt up until it is fixed I guess. Oh and just so you know the statements go for almost all hardmodes. We did the False Emperor last night. We actually managed - not sure how but we did. HK-47 was WAYYYYYYYYY too hard and we were just lucky. Then we come to Malgus and he was a lousy pushover. Must have been the easiest encounter I have played on hard. What is the problem with you guys in Austin. This is BETA stuff guys. This is not ready to be let loose on 08/15 players at all.

 

I went from excited to interested to frustrated to angry to...........thinking of my dollars spent! Not good BW-not good at all. If endgame continues like that I may just leave. <------another thing I never thought I'd say.

 

P.S.: So we are clear: average gear level of the group around 126!!!!!! O.o Outrageous!

 

 

LOL @ OP Most HMs are easy.

[BALORINA]

So you've come back from "enrage timers are bad" to "add punishing mechanics instead".

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just think that from a development standpoint it is much harder to come up with a mechanic for EVERY encounter you design.

 

What you are referring to are called soft enrages. You can add soft enrages onto hard enrages. WoW had many, many of them. Vaelstraz killed your raid until nobody was left, Maloriak had adds stacking a debuff on your offtank that eventually became unhealable, Ragnarosv2 fills the room up with fire/overcomes your raid with meteors.

 

Ragnaros v2, for example, had a 15 minute hard enrage. I don't know if anyone ever actually hit his hard enrage, you will either mess up the earlier phases or simply be overrun by meteors far earlier.

 

For what they had on their plate, I don't have an issue with the hard enrages in place for this tier of raiding. Hopefully the next raid/flashpoint tier is less buggy and has more interesting mechanics.

[IThrowRocks]

Actually - I guess that is probably the crux of why we are having such a horrible time understanding each other. I don't think that mechanic needs to exist at all unless it makes sense to the context of the encounter.

 

You are fighting on a ship and the airlock is going to blow in five minutes, great - timer away and let me see it.

 

There is zero reason to punish people for attempting content. If they can't do the DPS or heal through the fight they won't win and everyone here fighting to keep the noobs out of their l33t areas will continue to be satisfied. If I'm winning the fight that means I'm doing the same things you are and I deserve to win without being told I have five minutes to do it in.

 

 

They made a 3 tier system in this game.

 

Nomral, hard and nightmare.

 

If you want to pull mediocre dps and just have a good time I would direct you to normal content. But people who want to min/max and be "l33t" should be able to and to be challenged and pushed. You are doing the same exact boss fight!

 

You are obviously a more casual gamer and probably dislike hardcore gamers. Thats fine but you are bringing personal opinion into this argument and that is swaying your opinion. These games are designed to challengs and cater to hardcore gamers as well as casuals gamers and it has been designed to do so. Fact is if you are a casual gamer YOU WILL NOT BEAT ALL THE CONTENT.

 

Learn your limitations and learn that the more you put in the more you get out. You can apply this to anything in life. And yes I know its just a game but some people live to play these games and progress in its content and love it and spend countless hours doing it. The game cates to these people whether you like their life choices and personal interests or not.

[Merraith]

If they can't do the DPS or heal through the fight they won't win and everyone here fighting to keep the noobs out of their l33t areas will continue to be satisfied. If I'm winning the fight that means I'm doing the same things you are and I deserve to win without being told I have five minutes to do it in.

 

See...sometimes it's not just about exclusivity of wanting to beat something that all those "noobs" cannot. Sometimes it's about wanting content that pushes you in some way. You'd rather see MORE people be able to do it AS IT IS, without having to nerf it or make it easier. You're not doing the same thing as someone else if you aren't doing as much damage as they are in 5 minutes or less. You're only surviving that long, and that's not the whole fight, nor should it be in my opinion.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Merraith

[Loendar]

So you've come back from "enrage timers are bad" to "add punishing mechanics instead".

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just think that from a development standpoint it is much harder to come up with a mechanic for EVERY encounter you design.

 

What you are referring to are called soft enrages. You can add soft enrages onto hard enrages. WoW had many, many of them. Vaelstraz killed your raid until nobody was left, Maloriak had adds stacking a debuff on your offtank that eventually became unhealable, Ragnarosv2 fills the room up with fire/overcomes your raid with meteors.

 

Ragnaros v2, for example, had a 15 minute hard enrage. I don't know if anyone ever actually hit his hard enrage, you will either mess up the earlier phases or simply be overrun by meteors far earlier.

 

For what they had on their plate, I don't have an issue with the hard enrages in place for this tier of raiding. Hopefully the next raid/flashpoint tier is less buggy and has more interesting mechanics.

 

I've always said that the encounter design should dictate the result not a timer. That is all I've ever said. There is no coming back/from it.

 

I think a timer is lazy design and still do.

 

The 'soft' / 'hard' thing are just various mechanics for the fight and some are fundamentally different than an 'enrage'. Someone decided to lump them altogether as the same thing but they aren't always.

[Merraith]

Then it is just a basic difference of opinion on what counts as fun/engaging content.

 

I find a 'you lose' button every bit as offensive as an 'i win' button.

 

Except somehow...it's not even an "you lose" button to a lot of people.

 

But...even if it were, I'd rather have a game that pushes me to beat the lose button than coast through everything with a win button.

[Loendar]

They made a 3 tier system in this game.

 

Nomral, hard and nightmare.

 

If you want to pull mediocre dps and just have a good time I would direct you to normal content. But people who want to min/max and be "l33t" should be able to and to be challenged and pushed. You are doing the same exact boss fight!

 

You are obviously a more casual gamer and probably dislike hardcore gamers. Thats fine but you are bringing personal opinion into this argument and that is swaying your opinion. These games are designed to challengs and cater to hardcore gamers as well as casuals gamers and it has been designed to do so. Fact is if you are a casual gamer YOU WILL NOT BEAT ALL THE CONTENT.

 

Learn your limitations and learn that the more you put in the more you get out. You can apply this to anything in life. And yes I know its just a game but some people live to play these games and progress in its content and love it and spend countless hours doing it. The game cates to these people whether you like their life choices and personal interests or not.

 

I'll just throw this out one last time. I've completed every encounter HM or otherwise that I've attempted thus far in this game without once tripping the enrage encounter.

 

I'm not hard-core by any stretch but I can see a mechanic that doesn't need to exist and is punishing other players and a game (for the love of - it is supposed to be fun) and I decided to comment on it.

 

The sad truth is - if I hadn't seen this thread on the forum I wouldn't even know that BW has resorted to enrage timers everywhere.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Loendar

[Loendar]

Except somehow...it's not even an "you lose" button to a lot of people.

 

But...even if it were, I'd rather have a game that pushes me to beat the lose button than coast through everything with a win button.

 

It isn't a 'you lose' button to you - but you aren't ever hitting it. The likelihood is that if you hit the enrage you are going to die. Otherwise it would be even more pointless than it is.

[Merraith]

It isn't a 'you lose' button to you - but you aren't ever hitting it. The likelihood is that if you hit the enrage you are going to die. Otherwise it would be even more pointless than it is.

 

We've hit enrages before, as I noted when you're trying to squeeze in a non dps class in sometimes to gear them out and you're running with one less dps, a few times we've hit the timer. Most of them you can do anywhere from 5-10% more damage after the enrage before it's a total wipe. Those ones we weren't able to finish it off, guess what? We went back in and figured out ways to improve our damage with the same people in the same exact gear as 5 minutes before.

[IThrowRocks]

I'll just throw this out one last time. I've completed every encounter HM or otherwise that I've attempted thus far in this game without once tripping the enrage encounter.

 

I'm not hard-core by any stretch but I can see a mechanic that doesn't need to exist and is punishing other players and a game (for the love of - it is supposed to be fun) and I decided to comment on it.

 

 

I mean you will not be swayed and thats fine. Time for me to go hit up another thread. But I'll leave with a few basic points.

 

-Swtor is implementing enrage timers to put a responsibility on dps which I believe is perfectly fine. No responsibility or accountability on one of the three roles doesn't promote fun; it promotes laziness.

 

-Swtor has tried to make its game unique by implementing new resource mechanics. With these mechanics healers pretty much have the ability to last nearly forever. Allowing an 8 man to suceede purely because 3 of the members are geared and can perpetually keep the group alive is silly. While older mmo encounters didn't have enrage timers, they had more oom situations which acted as enrage timers. This was said ealier.

 

Honestly it isn't difficult to beat enrages. If you are geared enough (done your dailys for mods etc or done the previous raid difficulty level to a sufficient level), learn a good spell rotation (plenty of material can be found via simply googleing), and make use of CDs (relics, abilities, stims) then there is no reason why you should not be downing your content in a timely manner.

 

Enrage timers do not destroy the "fun factor", they destroy the "lazy factor". This game requires preparation and knowledge in order to defeat its content.

[Loendar]

We've hit enrages before, as I noted when you're trying to squeeze in a non dps class in sometimes to gear them out and you're running with one less dps, a few times we've hit the timer. Most of them you can do anywhere from 5-10% more damage after the enrage before it's a total wipe. Those ones we weren't able to finish it off, guess what? We went back in and figured out ways to improve our damage with the same people in the same exact gear as 5 minutes before.

 

Wouldn't you have felt equally elated and accomplished if you never hit a timer and completed the encounter because your abilities were right the first time as well? I guess you will argue that they weren't at their 'peak'. You could have hit the number '2' ability instead of number '3' during that second DPS pass.

 

I don't find that type of minute attention to min/max'ing rewarding at all. I accomplish all the same things without putting so much concern on the exact right way to do it and when you make that a requirement of every fight you are sucking the fun out for a large swatch of people.

 

Did you really make such fundamental mistakes to the encounter during your first pass that the only way to 'fix it' was to wipe you?

Edited February 3, 2012 by Loendar

[Loendar]

I mean you will not be swayed and thats fine. Time for me to go hit up another thread. But I'll leave with a few basic points.

 

-Swtor is implementing enrage timers to put a responsibility on dps which I believe is perfectly fine. No responsibility or accountability on one of the three roles doesn't promote fun; it promotes laziness.

 

-Swtor has tried to make its game unique by implementing new resource mechanics. With these mechanics healers pretty much have the ability to last nearly forever. Allowing an 8 man to suceede purely because 3 of the members are geared and can perpetually keep the group alive is silly. While older mmo encounters didn't have enrage timers, they had more oom situations which acted as enrage timers. This was said ealier.

 

Honestly it isn't difficult to beat enrages. If you are geared enough (done your dailys for mods etc or done the previous raid difficulty level to a sufficient level), learn a good spell rotation (plenty of material can be found via simply googleing), and make use of CDs (relics, abilities, stims) then there is no reason why you should not be downing your content in a timely manner.

 

Enrage timers do not destroy the "fun factor", they destroy the "lazy factor". This game requires preparation and knowledge in order to defeat its content.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on their impact on 'fun' and whether they bring anything to the table.

[Merraith]

I don't find that type of minute attention to min/max'ing rewarding at all. I accomplish all the same things without putting so much concern on the exact right way to do it and when you make that a requirement of every fight you are sucking the fun out for a large swatch of people.

 

Did you really make such fundamental mistakes to the encounter during your first pass that the only way to 'fix it' was to wipe you?

 

You don't, and yes, there are plenty who don't as well. But there are plenty who are. This is why we have 3 different "modes" to try these fights on.

[Loendar]

You don't, and yes, there are plenty who don't as well. But there are plenty who are. This is why we have 3 different "modes" to try these fights on.

 

All of which enforce your playstyle preference via enrage timers. (If I'm being told accurately)

[Fugitivelama]

I can not believe all the QQ over enrage timers. If you can't beat an enrage timer in HM Flashpoints your DPS is either terribly undergeared or just flat out bad at the game. In most HM Flashpoints you ARE ABLE to kill the boss if he enrages with 10% or less health provided , once again, that you are not terribly undergeared or just bad at the game. The enrage timers in this game are pretty much a joke all the way up to Nightmare Mode Operations. I have cleared all HM operations in PUG groups so honestly this game needs to ramp up the difficulty a little bit. I have not ventured into Nightmare modes yet mainly because I am PvPing and there just is not any incentive to go in there when I have full Rakata Gear from Hard Mode Operations. I also have heard that the Nightmares are not that much harder than Hard mode, a boss or two aside.

 

When you can get BiS end game gear from Pugging the middle tier of difficulty Operation, something needs to change and certainly NOT elimination or lengthening of Enrage timers.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Fugitivelama