Guardian Tank threat generation not there!

[Rubensblade]

im a lvl 50 jedi guardian tank. im almost full t2 and still cant seem to keep aggro. why is this happening? anyone else having this issue. its very hard to keep aggro on anything. my party members are constantly pull mobs off me. Ive been a tank in multiple mmo's, for many years. never having any issues with mobs lossing aggro, maybe one or 2 mobs get free usually because one of my dps go nuts on the target and i havent hit that mob yet. I feel like i'm the worst tank in the world.....but i know my rotation is correct and im doing everything i can to keep aggro.

 

Please if you have any info for me let me know what i'm doing wrong.

my rotation is:

saber throw, force leap, aoe taunt, force sweep, hilt strike, stasis, sunder,guardian slash, guardian leap to healer, force leap to mobs, etc etc. so many skills.

 

usually after my aoe taunt wares off. the mobs go everywhere its like force sweep all that other stuff does nothing to keep any aggro. and the taunts dont build threat at all it just makes them attack and that like a min cooldown.

 

how can they make a tank class that doesnt keep aggro.....i feel like i wasted my time. and money. Any world if they know about this and are they going to fix it?

Edited January 31, 2012 by Rubensblade

[Loendar]

im a lvl 50 jedi guardian tank. im almost full t2 and still cant seem to keep aggro. why is this happening? anyone else having this issue. its very hard to keep aggro on anything. my party members are constantly pull mobs off me. Ive been a tank in multiple mmo's, for many years. never having any issues with mobs lossing aggro, maybe one or 2 mobs get free usually because one of my dps go nuts on the target and i havent hit that mob yet. I feel like i'm the worst tank in the world.....but i know my rotation is correct and im doing everything i can to keep aggro.

 

Please if you have any info for me let me know what i'm doing wrong.

my rotation is:

saber throw, force leap, aoe taunt, force sweep, hilt strike, stasis, sunder,guardian slash, guardian leap to healer, force leap to mobs, etc etc. so many skills.

 

usually after my aoe taunt wares off. the mobs go everywhere its like force sweep all that other stuff does nothing to keep any aggro. and the taunts dont build threat at all it just makes them attack and that like a min cooldown.

 

how can they make a tank class that doesnt keep aggro.....i feel like i wasted my time. and money. Any world if they know about this and are they going to fix it?

 

Yes - this is an issue for Guardians (definitely those going down the full Defensive tree). Our threat generation on AE targets specifically is radically outstripped by the AE damage that DPS classes can put out and our tools for getting it back are temporary/slow and mostly ineffective.

 

Tanking as a Guardian in this game is an act in frustration compared to other games I have played a tank in (EQ2, specifically) where the tank is the focal. Here it is, quite literally, a free for all with mobs all over the place - bouncing from DPS to DPS to healer.

 

Apparently this is the same tanking 'style' as some class in WoW (never played) and some people find it completely okay - I don't. I'm not a tank in any stretch of the word here - I'm just a piss-poor DPS and can take a bit more damage from the one thing I can keep actively engaged on myself while I run around look a fool trying to get aggro from everything else.

[matthiaskotor]

The problem here is that in a pull with multiple strong/elite guys bunched together, your DPS shouldn't be firing off AOE abilities right away. They should FF a single enemy with direct damage, preferably one that you're beating on to hold aggro.

 

They should only kick in AOE DPS right away if they can handle pulling the aggro, or they're normal/weak mobs that will be dead by the time your AOE taunt wears off.

 

Deeply defense-specced guardians don't have great AOE threat generation abilities. The best AOE burst you have is to jump in, sweep, back up a couple steps and do a cyclone strike. But that's not going to outstrip well-geared DPS spamming AOE abilities.

[JeedaiFiresaber]

I definately feel like JK Guardians and Sith Juggernauts are missing something...

 

However I kinda wonder if its the threat system in this game...cause healers pull ALOT of threat compared to other games I've played...

 

i've been toying with trying out tanking on some of the other classes just to see if its any better (i somehow don't think it is that much different)

 

And IMO the taunts really need better cooldowns, or better talents to reduce their cooldowns or something...i dunno...

There's an aweful lack of 'tanky' talents int eh tank tree to me...

Edited January 31, 2012 by JeedaiFiresaber

[Alexi_son]

No. The problem here is that it is unreasonable to expect every other class in the game to sit on their thumbs and play like we need them to play for us to be effective.

 

And, it is unreasonable that as a class, we have essentially no abilities to pull or control agro that are not single Target, short range, and/or on a long timer.

 

Saber throw should be a ranged high threat attack and 20s cooldown.

 

Hilt strike should be a 15s cooldown.

 

Force sweep should be additional threat.

 

Our tank form should be 100% additional threat like companions get, not 50%.

 

Guardian Slash needs to be worth getting as a full defense specced tank.

 

 

As it stands now, we have extremely limited tools for grabbing roamers or tanking and holding threat on a pack of mobs.

 

And, without a way to organize those buttons into an attack rotation macro, we end up having about 20 different buttons to manage, with our main rotationals for our defense on 6s cooldown and 6s duration, that we have to focus on playing whack-a-mole with the button bars so much that its hard to maintain a situational awareness in the fight. The game needs a way to triage the basic attack rotations onto a couple of "generate", "burn" basic rotation buttons so we can watch the fights and our party to know when to force leap, guardian leap, saber throw, freezing force, warding call, enure, etc. We have literally 2 dozen buttons to monitor, and VERY few of the tools we NEED to be effective.

[Caern]

No. The problem here is that it is unreasonable to expect every other class in the game to sit on their thumbs and play like we need them to play for us to be effective.

 

I disagree with that particular statement. Vanilla WoW (the state of the game before any expansions existed), and all previous major MMO games, (Everquest, AC, etc.), put the onus on the DPS to pull their own share of weight and know how to work with the particular tank they had at the moment, not just shut off their brains and hit whatever they please. I miss those days and haven't really gotten into MMO's since, until this one.

 

That being said, to the above poster who asked if another class would be different: Yes, very. Vanguard troopers have a much easier time just tanking an entire room and having a good time of it, but they are also significantly weaker vs. tech and force attack types. They're better at getting aggro, but softer than a Guardian.

[Alexi_son]

I disagree with that particular statement. Vanilla WoW (the state of the game before any expansions existed), and all previous major MMO games, (Everquest, AC, etc.), put the onus on the DPS to pull their own share of weight and know how to work with the particular tank they had at the moment, not just shut off their brains and hit whatever they please. I miss those days and haven't really gotten into MMO's since, until this one.

 

 

I cannot reliably pull and maintain agro from my companion pet (T7 or Lord Scourge) -- let alone other dps classes. In it's current state for guardians, our threat generation - especially AoE threat generation - is very poor.

 

I feel the current "level" to which DPS has to scale down, and stand around waiting for me to generate threat, is unacceptable when compared to other tanks within SWToR. Learning to work with a tank is one thing. Requiring folks to lower the dps and healing to humor me as a guardian trying to do my job and tank a group of mobs is another. When another tank class can hold threat better, and allow the group to dps harder, heal faster, and with less concern for losing agro, then it's not just a skill issue.

[MisterBob]

I've gotta agree with everyone here. I thought Guardian would be a great tank class being a Jedi Knight and all but I hate it. Level 32 now and reading that it doesn't get any better at 50 just makes me wanna /wrist. I really hope Bioware will fix this somehow. Maybe some better AOE threat or reduce the cooldowns. It's ridiculous.

[Hahnz]

I think the solution to this problem is quite a simple one...

 

 

1) the 3 piont talent Pacification: additional to the damage increase, they should make each point produce 20/40/60% more threat of each of those abilities also.

 

2) as someone has already mentioned, increase soresu form to 100% instead of 50%

 

3) I would like to see some ability that can help us group ranged targets up, working opposite to force push, drawing enemies toward us and into melee range.

[Ycoga]

The problem here is that in a pull with multiple strong/elite guys bunched together, your DPS shouldn't be firing off AOE abilities right away. They should FF a single enemy with direct damage, preferably one that you're beating on to hold aggro.

Seems a silly thing to say; of course a DPS should AOE packs of mobs. :/

[Elderhound]

The problem here is that in a pull with multiple strong/elite guys bunched together, your DPS shouldn't be firing off AOE abilities right away. They should FF a single enemy with direct damage, preferably one that you're beating on to hold aggro.

 

They should only kick in AOE DPS right away if they can handle pulling the aggro, or they're normal/weak mobs that will be dead by the time your AOE taunt wears off.

 

Deeply defense-specced guardians don't have great AOE threat generation abilities. The best AOE burst you have is to jump in, sweep, back up a couple steps and do a cyclone strike. But that's not going to outstrip well-geared DPS spamming AOE abilities.

 

This is true, but we definitely need WAY more threat gen or longer taunts lol. This is a joke.

[Elderhound]

No. The problem here is that it is unreasonable to expect every other class in the game to sit on their thumbs and play like we need them to play for us to be effective.

 

And, it is unreasonable that as a class, we have essentially no abilities to pull or control agro that are not single Target, short range, and/or on a long timer.

 

Saber throw should be a ranged high threat attack and 20s cooldown.

 

Hilt strike should be a 15s cooldown.

 

Force sweep should be additional threat.

 

Our tank form should be 100% additional threat like companions get, not 50%.

 

Guardian Slash needs to be worth getting as a full defense specced tank.

 

 

As it stands now, we have extremely limited tools for grabbing roamers or tanking and holding threat on a pack of mobs.

 

And, without a way to organize those buttons into an attack rotation macro, we end up having about 20 different buttons to manage, with our main rotationals for our defense on 6s cooldown and 6s duration, that we have to focus on playing whack-a-mole with the button bars so much that its hard to maintain a situational awareness in the fight. The game needs a way to triage the basic attack rotations onto a couple of "generate", "burn" basic rotation buttons so we can watch the fights and our party to know when to force leap, guardian leap, saber throw, freezing force, warding call, enure, etc. We have literally 2 dozen buttons to monitor, and VERY few of the tools we NEED to be effective.

 

So true, i agree 100%

[Elderhound]

I disagree with that particular statement. Vanilla WoW (the state of the game before any expansions existed), and all previous major MMO games, (Everquest, AC, etc.), put the onus on the DPS to pull their own share of weight and know how to work with the particular tank they had at the moment, not just shut off their brains and hit whatever they please. I miss those days and haven't really gotten into MMO's since, until this one.

 

That being said, to the above poster who asked if another class would be different: Yes, very. Vanguard troopers have a much easier time just tanking an entire room and having a good time of it, but they are also significantly weaker vs. tech and force attack types. They're better at getting aggro, but softer than a Guardian.

 

I disagree, the point is the limited ability's of the guardian to hold agro or generate threat. No dps should have to play a limited dps roll because the guardian can only maintain a certain level of aggro. If a vanguard can keep aggro better than a guardian somethings wrong. They should be almost equal in holding aggro.

[Anrew]

The problem here is that in a pull with multiple strong/elite guys bunched together, your DPS shouldn't be firing off AOE abilities right away. They should FF a single enemy with direct damage, preferably one that you're beating on to hold aggro.

 

They should only kick in AOE DPS right away if they can handle pulling the aggro, or they're normal/weak mobs that will be dead by the time your AOE taunt wears off.

 

Deeply defense-specced guardians don't have great AOE threat generation abilities. The best AOE burst you have is to jump in, sweep, back up a couple steps and do a cyclone strike. But that's not going to outstrip well-geared DPS spamming AOE abilities.

 

As a healer I just want to say that in hm flashpoints anyway I can't speak to raids to much, but I don't mind healing through dps taking damage. Specifically if they are focusing on a weak mob aka littles. While the guardian ties up a seperate group or strong mobs. I hate it when strong mobs get killed before the littles since littles seem to do the same amount of damage and like is being pointed out here enemies can be hard to pick up. I mean even if its a pull of 5 and then 3 fly down on their jet packs. Annoying and its hard for tanks to grab those. I do hate grabbing hate of the ones that fly in late just due to healing the tank. With dps using aoes I am fine with it on little "if" the tank can throw a froce taunt on them and its aoe dmg that will knock things down like force quake just because littles die and generally won't do damage.

[Cleet_Xia]

31/10/0 sage here.

 

DPS shouldn't be burning AoE at the start of a fight that has more than 1 strong or elite mob Period. Because it will break CC. CC should be used as a matter of habit, even when it isn't needed, so that it is second nature not to break it when it is needed.

 

Tanks not holding all the aggro, and saving the dps isn't an issue in HM. I can heal the dps just fine, so long as they are actually killing the trash mobs/ protecting me/ staying out of as much AoE damage as they can/ and NOT FF on the elite/champion that the tank is being a chew toy for.

 

I've had enough problems running HM with Guardians for tanks, but none of them were because they didn't hold aggro well enough. I'm leveling a Guardian right now, just so I can understand better how to work with them.

 

The biggest issues I have with Guardians are..

1) not using their out of combat heal... too lazy to click 1 button? Really?

2) charging ahead and pulling aggro while I'm using my out of combat heal

3) leaping out of LOS/healing range while still in a damaged state

 

If you want to lead off fights with massive amounts of AoE ...

1) let the sage bubble self/ make the pull with their lift / speed away from ranged mobs

2) When the sage stops running the Guardian leaps to the mobs that chased the sage

3) Guardian blows AoE Taunt

4) Sage bubbles tank, then sage & DPS drop 3 AoEs

5) mop up the nearly dead.. go mercy kill the still lifted strongs/elites WITHOUT using AoE

....couterintuitive.. yes.. works great! Works even better with even more CC.

 

It gets the spread out weak mobs into a tight group to get busted by the Guardian Taunt & the following AoE damage - and away from the CC'd mobs. It pretty much makes it unecessary for tanks to actually hold aggro on more than 1 mob at a time. The DPS get to FF on whatever is moving. No stress on anybody, and your sage gets to contribute dps,bubbles, clense, & interrupts, with very little healing needed. Everybody gets to move swiftly from 1 fight to the next, without having to wait while the sage meditates. Once you get used to it, it is faster than wading in, and aggro-ing the whole room.

 

The trash fights in HM are what sages hate about PUGing. But this strategy is what all seers did the whole time they were leveling, so they all know how to do it.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Cleet_Xia

[SithEater]

A DPS JOB IS NOT TO DO AS MUCH DAMAGE AS POSSIBLE BUT TO DO AS MUCH DAMAGE AS POSSIBLE WITHOUT TAKING AGGRO FROM THE TANK. PERIOD.

 

Now I know all the WoW-Wrath babies are gonna disagree but you don't know what you are talking about anyway so shoo, go wait for Pandaland to come out.

 

As a dps if the fight starts on a pack of Elite mobs, you blast AOE right from the get go and die then you got exactly what you deserved. If the group wipes because of it you should get a warning the first time and booted the second.

 

For AOE tanking I set a CC, set a FF target AND a secondary target to focus after the first is down, Saber Throw the focus target and then Force Leap to it, hit AOE Taunt and back up far enough so the mobs follow me out of range of the CC, Force Sweep, Combat Focus, then hit Cyclone Slash like 2-3 times in a row. By now AOE taunt is about to wear off and I taunt focus target cause the DPS have been going hardcore at him so AOE taunt was the only thing keeping him on me, once single taunt lands I start my aggro rotation.

 

If everyone is doing their jobs right (including me) then the mobs bouncing between DPSers and healers should be minimal at worst and if so the healer can heal both me and a single DPSer getting whacked until single target taunt is up again. If you hit Force Sweep every time its up by the time the first two are down you should have enough aggro on the rest to keep shiz under control.

 

Consecrate and take a nap Guardians are not, but the trade off is being a bad mamma jamma when it comes to tanking the hardest hitters in the game.

[xxWargodxx]

A DPS JOB IS NOT TO DO AS MUCH DAMAGE AS POSSIBLE BUT TO DO AS MUCH DAMAGE AS POSSIBLE WITHOUT TAKING AGGRO FROM THE TANK. PERIOD.

 

Now I know all the WoW-Wrath babies are gonna disagree but you don't know what you are talking about anyway so shoo, go wait for Pandaland to come out.

 

As a dps if the fight starts on a pack of Elite mobs, you blast AOE right from the get go and die then you got exactly what you deserved. If the group wipes because of it you should get a warning the first time and booted the second.

 

For AOE tanking I set a CC, set a FF target AND a secondary target to focus after the first is down, Saber Throw the focus target and then Force Leap to it, hit AOE Taunt and back up far enough so the mobs follow me out of range of the CC, Force Sweep, Combat Focus, then hit Cyclone Slash like 2-3 times in a row. By now AOE taunt is about to wear off and I taunt focus target cause the DPS have been going hardcore at him so AOE taunt was the only thing keeping him on me, once single taunt lands I start my aggro rotation.

 

If everyone is doing their jobs right (including me) then the mobs bouncing between DPSers and healers should be minimal at worst and if so the healer can heal both me and a single DPSer getting whacked until single target taunt is up again. If you hit Force Sweep every time its up by the time the first two are down you should have enough aggro on the rest to keep shiz under control.

 

Consecrate and take a nap Guardians are not, but the trade off is being a bad mamma jamma when it comes to tanking the hardest hitters in the game.

 

Haha, try tanking with a Vanguard where the AE taunt isn't even part of my rotation, it simply isn't needed, and DPS'ers can blast away while I hold aggro just fine.

 

Then, of course, there's single target threat generation which is also a complete joke. The reason is simple, and it takes all of 10 minutes playing a 50 Vanguard to figure out why: tank spec'd Vanguards do way more DPS than tank spec'd Guardians, whether AE or single target.

[Tomachimon]

I play a guardian since start and i have learned on thing that can help ya out is to spec Vig....you lose a few tank abilities but gain other and also you can scoop up your DoTs which will help hate...most ops fight after 5 secs you cant pull the mob off me unless i lag or something.

As for HM i try to pick up the stronger mobs while DPS burns the weaker ones down...then when they done i have ample hate on whatever is left....main thing is the have your resources used right and everything goes fine

Edited March 23, 2012 by Tomachimon

[MylesOtter]

...Please if you have any info for me let me know what i'm doing wrong.

my rotation is:

saber throw, force leap, aoe taunt, force sweep, hilt strike, stasis, sunder,guardian slash, guardian leap to healer, force leap to mobs, etc etc. so many skills.

 

usually after my aoe taunt wares off. the mobs go everywhere its like force sweep all that other stuff does nothing to keep any aggro. and the taunts dont build threat at all it just makes them attack and that like a min cooldown.

 

Slight change I'd suggest in your rotation - Move your AoE taunt to just after your sweep or hilt strike. Taunting moves you up to the highest threat at the time of the taunt, so you actually want others to have some threat before you use it (this gives you a bigger total threat amount when the taunt goes off). If the taunt is in melee range, you'll be moved to 110% of the highest current threat; at range, it's 130%.

 

The taunt also forces the targets to attack you for a short time. Usually, if you use your taunt early, the dps then completely blows away your threat with their damage during this period, so that when the taunt wears off the mobs go chasing after them.

 

Optimally, you want to use the taunt just as the furthest mob reachs the dps while still being in range of your taunt - this gives you the 130% threat, and pops that threat on top of what the dps just unloaded. More often you do it when the mobs are still well within your taunt range just to be safe, at about 10-12m from you.

 

Even doing it this way, the dps are likely to go right over your threat again, but you'll have a little more breathing space on the targets that aren't getting hammered so much, so a little more control over the fight. I've never been able to control a large pull consistently, and haven't needed to - you can save the healers alot of pain just by keeping the mobs running back and forth, even if you can't keep them glued on you

 

(edited to add: all numbers and the tactics based off them is anecdotal only, until we get more solid information)

Edited March 23, 2012 by MylesOtter

[Horing]

In my oppinion - Guardians are pure crap. Their damage is laughable and their ability to crowd control even worse. You want to see just how fail they are - enter a PvP match with one! An eye opener. Every class out-DPS you!! So you want to keep aggro? Good luck! Edited March 23, 2012 by Horing

[ZaruenMakai]

im fine how are you