Wheem Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Bump because this issue is so grossly under reported (maybe because there are so few of us to begin with?) I'm sick and tired of being forced into panic-healing mode by bads that got free Battlemaster thanks to Imperials holding Ilum almost 24/7. Gimme something that lets me effectively kite. My Sage - even when I have 0 points in the healing tree - has far better survivability. As soon as 1 or 2 decent players in a game realize that my Scoundrel is healing, I'm pretty much neutralized for the entire match. Playing the class/spec combination in PvP makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon. Edited February 20, 2012 by Wheem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cytheria Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 i'll add a +1 to this... I know...we should kite, respec to dps, l2p all that garbage. Truth is a heal spec scoundrel in no way equals any other heal spec class in pvp, and to a lesser extent, is regarded as almost undesirable in raids as well. Looking forward, I hate being a doomsayer, but I suspect that with the upcoming "kick vote" system a lot of heal spec scoundrels and ops are going to end up kicked before we even start a match... At the moment we take the utility role of "off heal/off dps" to a terminal extreme where to pull off any kind of focused healing we have to stop dead in our tracks and turret for a few seconds to pump out a heal which if it doesn't crit, can usually be out done by pretty much any other classes self heal anyway. Our spec bonus aoe skill costs far too much considering the low level of healing provided, and for me at least doesnt hit nearly enough targets (seriously... 4 targets when most other classes aoe heals seem to be unlimited?) Interrupts.... well ok I get it, they make sense in an "omg ive been overrun, quick kick it and run away" role play sense, but seriously, giving a class that really has to stay as far away from the action as possible to stay alive, interrupts that require you to be toe to toe with your enemy is a little nonsensical. As for damage, pfft forget about it, with all the nerfs to our skills and surge, it's pretty much impossible to land a 2.5k hit, hard work to hit a 75k damage medal, and pointless trying for much else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheem Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 So I respec'd to LOLBURST!!1!one1!! (aka, Scrapper) for a while again, because I was sick and tired of getting 3-5 medals per match. Such bad rewards sure does make going for Battlemaster seem like a horrific grind (especially since we never really hold Ilum for more than 20 minutes at a time). Anyway, playing a bit as dps on two different characters (Scoundrel and Sage) really just makes the original topic even more apparent; Scoundrel/Operative healers are garbage compared to Sage/Sorcerer and Commando/Mercenary. When I get on an Op/Scoundrel healer on either of my characters, the only things that are going to keep them alive for any length of time is a teammate helping peel me off, or a significant amount of cross-healing. It's literally one of the easiest and safest kills there is; interrupt Underworld Medicine, follow it up with a stun ~3 seconds later, and you win. Thanks to Upper Hand requirements, Op/Scoundrel healers have nothing to fall back on after that "main heal" interrupt, whereas the other two healers do (on top of having more ability to kite, escape, and/or tank). I honestly think it's easier to kill a guarded Operative/Scoundrel healer than either of the other two without guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leszor Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Thanks to Upper Hand requirements, Op/Scoundrel healers have nothing to fall back on after that "main heal" interrupt, whereas the other two healers do (on top of having more ability to kite, escape, and/or tank). I honestly think it's easier to kill a guarded Operative/Scoundrel healer than either of the other two without guard. This was one of the first things i noticed (and complained about) when i decided to switch to sawbones after i was done with leveling, its just horribly frustrating to only really have a single, reliable heal Also the Upper Hand mechanic feel forced and tacked on and its completely retarded that two out three heals require it (and on top of that one is terrible), energy is horrible for pvp healing where burst damage is king, survivability and utility (especially in cheeseball) are non existant In short the entire tree should be thrown into a fire and completely redone Edited February 24, 2012 by Leszor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leszor Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Went back and quoted this for greater justice Stealth utility DOESN'T=sorc utility Now i dont know if Bioware though having stealth meant removing any kind of utility AND survivability tool or if they just were lazy and did a half assed job on Sawbones/Medicine (im thinking the latter)... but THIS, a hundred times Unfortunately there are so few Sc/Ops healers this thread will get (re) buried soon Edited February 24, 2012 by Leszor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenthum Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 3) Take away the healing penalty for vanishing. Vanish is 100% worthless for an operative healer because it doesn't remove dots so you get brought out of stealth nearly instantly, then have that healing debuff on you for 10 seconds. I'm the first one to say operative/scound healers really need help but this is a L2P issue. Try using Dodge in conjunction with vanish (no GCD). Auto clears all DoTs and vanishes at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leszor Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 While that is completely true... sometimes due to this game having an obscenely bad netcode you get hit AFTER you vanish and not by abilities with a travel time That healing penalty should go away, it does not make any sense anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulvark Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Well I neither play a sorc or scoundrel but I fight em and honestly (not giving his name since i Hate him and wont give him proper props) but there is a pvp scound on my server that is amazing OR he is cheating. Healing from 20% health to full in a few seconds, vanish and dps. Its absolutely rediculous to fight him some days. Sorcs I dont bat an eye at as I kill them in hutball easily enough less others jump in. Point, if this person is not cheating, there is nothing wrong with that class and most 50 imps on my server would say the same. He is always the first one targeted in pvp and has huge survivability. Would have to say most people of these classes either dont spend the time to learn their class as well as they could or just get jealous of something they dont have. If anything on Scounds and OPs get a buff need to remove vanish. So now, flame away since I know many of you are already doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leszor Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Im not sure how can you be flamed there, since you provide ZERO meaningful arguments, just a "i cant kill that guy so you lot dont know how to play" I especially like that you dont even seem to know HOW he is healing himself from 20 to full while also dpsing and yet you are shameless enough to state that other people are jelous and dont dont their class Hopefully this was just a (rather laughable) trolling attempt because if not... sheesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I'm happy with yesterday's patch fixing the bonus heal to KP and RN, however operative still needs improvements on energy management, there's no way I can go into a HM and get enough heals off before I pop the AP and then run out shortly after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Well I neither play a sorc or scoundrel but I fight em and honestly (not giving his name since i Hate him and wont give him proper props) but there is a pvp scound on my server that is amazing OR he is cheating. Healing from 20% health to full in a few seconds, vanish and dps. Its absolutely rediculous to fight him some days. Sorcs I dont bat an eye at as I kill them in hutball easily enough less others jump in. Point, if this person is not cheating, there is nothing wrong with that class and most 50 imps on my server would say the same. He is always the first one targeted in pvp and has huge survivability. Would have to say most people of these classes either dont spend the time to learn their class as well as they could or just get jealous of something they dont have. If anything on Scounds and OPs get a buff need to remove vanish. So now, flame away since I know many of you are already doing so. Um yeah that doesn't sound right, you said heal from 20% to full in seconds and then DPS? Possible 3 talent tree hack? (Yes it exists) As full medicine operative, even I can't do that, unless I properly time an already proc'd surgical probe (x2) with pvp heal stim and placing RN on myself hoping for a big tick. Edited February 24, 2012 by Sookster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natharon Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Um yeah that doesn't sound right, you said heal from 20% to full in seconds and then DPS? Possible 3 talent tree hack? (Yes it exists) As full medicine operative, even I can't do that, unless I properly time an already proc'd surgical probe (x2) with pvp heal stim and placing RN on myself hoping for a big tick. He also probably hit a rakata medpack or a warzone medpack. Rakata seems more likely due to the regen it also applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzou Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 no no and no.the best pvp healers i play with or against are OPs . ppl who think they need a boost should learn how to kite and heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenthum Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 no no and no.the best pvp healers i play with or against are OPs . ppl who think they need a boost should learn how to kite and heal. How do you suggest they kite an enemy with an undispellable snare(and/or root) or a speed boost? Healing sounds like a wonderful idea, but the only cast time heal that doesn't require TA is also our TA generator, so if you lock that out we can't do anything but hope our HOTs save us or vanish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahak Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 no no and no.the best pvp healers i play with or against are OPs . ppl who think they need a boost should learn how to kite and heal. Your opinion is irrelevant since you've obviously never played Scoundrel or Operative healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEAF Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) He also probably hit a rakata medpack or a warzone medpack. Rakata seems more likely due to the regen it also applies. I'm 95% certain the "no healing" debuff applied on vanish prevents medpacks from working. As for the topic, yes, Op healers (and Ops in general) need a serious buff. They are walking free kills. The whole medic/sawbones tree needs to be redesigned. Unfortunately I feel that the same whining bads that got the class nerfed into the ground in the first place will prevent this from ever happening.... :I Edited February 24, 2012 by CEAF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SajPl Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Never played the class but as far as I see they are the weakest healing class and are nowhere near as good at healing as commandos and sages and I do agree that they seem to be at an unfair disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheem Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 Well I neither play a sorc or scoundrel but I fight em and honestly (not giving his name since i Hate him and wont give him proper props) but there is a pvp scound on my server that is amazing OR he is cheating. Healing from 20% health to full in a few seconds, vanish and dps. Its absolutely rediculous to fight him some days. Sorcs I dont bat an eye at as I kill them in hutball easily enough less others jump in. Point, if this person is not cheating, there is nothing wrong with that class and most 50 imps on my server would say the same. He is always the first one targeted in pvp and has huge survivability. Would have to say most people of these classes either dont spend the time to learn their class as well as they could or just get jealous of something they dont have. If anything on Scounds and OPs get a buff need to remove vanish. So now, flame away since I know many of you are already doing so. For all I know you're talking about me, since within the past week or so I've been told I was "impossible" to kill. I didn't want to be rude, but the only reason that he/they couldn't kill me is that they apparently didn't know how. Killing Operative and Scoundrel healers on either of my characters in a DPS spec is relatively trivial. The other two healers are far more survivable...like, it's not even really comparable. no no and no.the best pvp healers i play with or against are OPs . ppl who think they need a boost should learn how to kite and heal. TROLLOLOLOLOLOL I've already said it several times, but I guess I need to reiterate...When I'm in a game against a team of bads - yea I come out looking like some kind of god-class that needs a nerf. That happens when I rarely get targeted, and all I need to do to get myself un-targeted is dirty kick and run around a pillar. In games with players who actually know what they're doing, that doesn't work. When that happens (which is almost always), I spend the entire game doing nothing but panic-style self healing and hoping I can get out of LOS long enough to cast an Underworld Medicine so that I can stay alive a few more seconds (and if I get unlucky on Upper Hand procs from HOTs, I can forget it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenthum Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 My favorite thing to do against bad premade teams, who are carried by the fact that they're a premade against all pugs all the time, is Diagnostic Scan and watch 3 interrupts immediately fire. I then proceed to heal myself and 3 other people to full and start using Diagnostic Scan again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSpin Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 50 Op Medic, and I approve this message. It's garbage. I really like the idea of healing, and playing the operative... however now that I'm being relied on to heal in Operations and Warzones in my guild, it gets frustrating. The 4-person HOT is worthless when trying to heal a whole group or when your're on the run. Especially when compared to the energy consumption. Using the AOE with 1 other heal drops you into the lower tier. It's only really useful when you're out of combat, and you'd like to top off the 4 man group from 95% to 100%. And you don't plan on being in combat for another 15 seconds. The Kolto Probe is a neat idea in a perfect scenario, healing 1 person. But since BioWare wants to stack all of our medic gear with Alacrity... getting a crit is not as easy and you end up running out of energy faster. Also, when you're healing a group, you're usually always trying to burst heal someone, KP just gets in the way (energy & GCD). I'm not going to cast a small hot on someone while I watch them die. No knock-backs, no speedy getaways, no bubble worth more than one hit.... just hope you can out heal your incoming damage, and hope the other person has never heard of an interrupt and they get bored and go to their next target. Don't get me started on Diagnostic Scan... worthless focused heals (150hp each tick?). The only use for it is to gain power back by abruptly halting your HPS. This post turned out to be a lot longer than I anticipated... If all of our abilities cost less energy (since we have a tiered energy regen...unlike sorc/sage), and possibly up the heals on the HOTS so they are worth something...I think that would be a start. Throw in an actually decent bubble... and I'd be happy. TL;DR version... we suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImURmaster Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8885/screenshot2012022115584.jpg 700+k isnt to bad, IMO. Can sorc/sages do better? Yea, but then again no one is asking for buffs to thier healing as in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulvark Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 For all I know you're talking about me, since within the past week or so I've been told I was "impossible" to kill. I didn't want to be rude, but the only reason that he/they couldn't kill me is that they apparently didn't know how. Killing Operative and Scoundrel healers on either of my characters in a DPS spec is relatively trivial. The other two healers are far more survivable...like, it's not even really comparable. TROLLOLOLOLOLOL I've already said it several times, but I guess I need to reiterate...When I'm in a game against a team of bads - yea I come out looking like some kind of god-class that needs a nerf. That happens when I rarely get targeted, and all I need to do to get myself un-targeted is dirty kick and run around a pillar. In games with players who actually know what they're doing, that doesn't work. When that happens (which is almost always), I spend the entire game doing nothing but panic-style self healing and hoping I can get out of LOS long enough to cast an Underworld Medicine so that I can stay alive a few more seconds (and if I get unlucky on Upper Hand procs from HOTs, I can forget it). Probably not you then. I rarely see this person hide in warzones but almost all my pvp experience with him / her is in Ilum and he is always marked soon as he hits the field as priority over all the sages who are placed 2nd in the kill order. However, like i said dont play either class but from fighting him and others in his guild, either very, very good or hacking (as many of his guild have been reported for doing in warzones) definately in the top 5 most hated Pubs in pvp there. Anyhow, all that being said, my assassin has killed him but it is alot harder then killing a sage thats for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tdain Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Scoundrel/Ops dont need a healing buff, they need more utility if you ask me. I can keep someone up with 3 people beating on them, most main heals I do crit for 5k. (600+ Expertise on my scoundrel) However I don't have much else apart from that and dispel. No gap closes, no gap makers. (groin kick and run hardly counts) Our own shield protects you for 1 measly attack, normal or otherwise. ^^^ As a BM Medic, I essentially play Huttball all day. That's cool, I like Huttball. But I provide minimal utility to the team. I am the worst ball carrier, have limited defensive utility and limited offensive utility. I cannot force speed to help score, cannot pull to help the carrier score or avoid fire. I have no AoE knockback to provide scoring assistance or defense. I have no grapple and my stun and slow is melee, which is not where I should be if I want to cast heals. I have a great Mez, but again, it's melee. And no gap closer so I have to be very aware of my own position. When the game becomes even more about winning, then the utter lack of utility to help in Huttball will cause any team to question bringing an Operative vs other class. Finally, there is the fun aspect. Utility also is the spice of most pvp games. It shows where you can add some skill and have fun. Making a great pull or grapple is very fulfilling and I lack that aspect of enjoyment on the Operative. Edited February 24, 2012 by Tdain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natharon Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I'm 95% certain the "no healing" debuff applied on vanish prevents medpacks from working. As for the topic, yes, Op healers (and Ops in general) need a serious buff. They are walking free kills. The whole medic/sawbones tree needs to be redesigned. Unfortunately I feel that the same whining bads that got the class nerfed into the ground in the first place will prevent this from ever happening.... :I Considering the guy described massive healing and damage it isn't a huge leap to assume it was a concealment op/scrapper scoundrel, and they talented for the ability to keep healing going. Heck before the pure frozen shock water nerf I was practically unkillable. I would end matches with over 100k healing 9k highest heal, and still have all my pretty damage numbers, higher in fact due to my ability to stay in combat longer. Edited February 24, 2012 by Natharon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynellan Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Sages and commandos are way ahead of scoundrels right now in terms of healing. Have to work my *** off to keep up with the less experienced sages, and the good sages way outheal me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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