Please, Don't Roll on Items for Another Class in Your Team

[daemian]

This! ^^^^^

 

May I place this quote by you in my signature?

 

Heh. Sure, if you really want to.

[Setanian]

Hilarious. You guys love to use the "I'm not going to play any more!" when someone calls you on your own rules.

 

You keep throwing up these 'nothing' posts. If you want to debate, let me know 'exactly' what you are calling me on?

[Loendar]

Gosh - I missed this thread.

 

/popcorn

[Shadowkai]

I find it amusing that you'd accuse someone of ad hominem attacks when you did the same a bit earlier. You're also going to have to show me how you've actually been attacked. I definitely questioned your reading comprehension, because you indicated I didn't provide an answer to your question when I pointedly did. But questioning your capabilities isn't an attack, much less an ad hominem one. If you think it is, I might perhaps recommend reading up on terms before you use them so you're confident of their actual definition and use.

 

This said, it doesn't remove the reality of this actual discussion: if you're in the group, you're the sole one with the right to determine your rationale for rolling on something you helped generate (via defeating the boss that dropped it), and you have zero right to determine whether someone else's rationale is "acceptable" or not.

 

 

 

Note how he uses charged words like "ethic" so he can cast aspersions on views different from his own without actually having to come right out and say it.

 

There are no ethics in video gaming. Video gaming is morally agnostic. If you choose to ascribe moral or ethical value to something, that's just fine, but it doesn't obligate others to agree with those values, nor does it make those values objectively right for anyone save yourself.

 

Ha. Of course I'll come right out and say it. People like you are the reason the term "ninja" came into existence in MMOs.

 

I AM casting aspersions on your view. I won't group with people like you, period. I play for fun, I enjoy grouping, I enjoy community, and I NEVER roll need on items I don't need.

 

Enjoy your time in TOR!

[Setanian]

Ha. Of course I'll come right out and say it. People like you are the reason the term "ninja" came into existence in MMOs.

 

I AM casting aspersions on your view. I won't group with people like you, period. I play for fun, I enjoy grouping, I enjoy community, and I NEVER roll need on items I don't need.

 

Enjoy your time in TOR!

 

That seems pretty flawed..

 

Ninja is to take something that you were not entitled to take. Winning an item from a loot roll and it appearing in your inventory is not ninja by any stretch of any imagination.

 

Nobody claimed you did roll on items you didn't need. Nor have I seen one post by someone saying they'd roll need on an item they didn't need.

 

Your problem is, you are attempting to dictate (yet again) what my need is.

[Eldren]

Ha. Of course I'll come right out and say it. People like you are the reason the term "ninja" came into existence in MMOs.

 

I AM casting aspersions on your view. I won't group with people like you, period. I play for fun, I enjoy grouping, I enjoy community, and I NEVER roll need on items I don't need.

 

Enjoy your time in TOR!

 

Therein lies the fault with your premise, however. You're assuming I roll on items I don't need. I can categorically say I don't.

 

If I need it for a stat upgrade for myself or a companion, I roll Need.

If I need it for a cosmetic upgrade for myself or a companion, I roll Need.

If I intend to sell it to a vendor or on the GTN, I roll Greed.

 

That's how I personally do it. If someone wants to roll Need on it because they intend to sell it, I have no choice but to accept that they believe they need it for credits (some stuff can get spendy in the game, and credits don't skyrocket til 50), even if I personally don't like someone rolling Need on something to sell it.

 

So what's your issue with my perspective?

 

As far as your accusation of the source of the term "ninja" as it applies to loot in video games, I'd again encourage you to make sure you're using a term properly before someone schools you and makes you look as foolish as you seem bound and determined to make yourself look.

[BigBadEdward]

What more of a definition do you require?

 

If you need the item, you roll need.

If you do not need it, but would like it, you roll greed,

if you have no use for it all, you pass.

 

 

Is there something there you do not understand?

 

I don't but the people who have been aruging about this for the past month obviously do.

[Eternalnight]

How is it not an answer? Validity of the need is actually the real answer.

It's not.

 

You have not given any way to tell what actually validates a need.

 

I listed some possible reasons why someone may want to have something. Just because you want something does not automatically mean you actually need it.

 

Need roll is for when you want an item and have a valid reason to need it

Greed roll is for when you want an item but don't have a valid reason to need it

 

Now for every reason I can think of to want an item, I can always make up some excuse why it improves my gameplay so that I actually need it for a valid reasons.

 

Still at the same time, I can also, for all of those reasons, make up some excuse why I really don't need it, because I can still go on without it.

 

Without better definitions, everything can be seen as a valid reason or nothing can be seen as a valid reason just as well, and there is no way to tell the difference.

 

So unless you can clearly define what validates a need, saying "Validity of the need is actually the real answer" does not answer anything at all.

 

 

Now, if you don't understand the differences between a need and greed roll I can't help with that.

Translation: "I don't know how to define need and greed, so I'm just going to pretend that I have answer for it, and that I just don't need to define it"

[BigBadEdward]

So you mean gear is something lucid and instead that bioware should do one button to rule them all NEED ?

 

I'm not really sure I understand but I believe the whole need/greed thing has outlived it usefullness, if it was ever really necessary in the first place.

 

Two buttons, roll and pass are all we need. The hundreds of pages of useless blather on this subject would simply not be here if we only had roll and pass.

 

Oh yeah, do away with bind on pickup for dropped gear too. It's just stupid that I can't go sell something on the AH that I won in an FP. Before someone asks, no, I don't care if people gear up fro the AH instead of running some pointless FP 10,000 times.

[Eldren]

It's not.

 

You have not given any way to tell what actually validates a need.

 

I listed some possible reasons why someone may want to have something. Just because you want something does not automatically mean you actually need it.

 

Need roll is for when you want an item and have a valid reason to need it

Greed roll is for when you want an item but don't have a valid reason to need it

 

Now for every reason I can think of to want an item, I can always make up some excuse why it improves my gameplay so that I actually need it for a valid reasons.

 

Still at the same time, I can also, for all of those reasons, make up some excuse why I really don't need it, because I can still go on without it.

 

Without better definitions, everything can be seen as a valid reason or nothing can be seen as a valid reason just as well, and there is no way to tell the difference.

 

So unless you can clearly define what validates a need, saying "Validity of the need is actually the real answer" does not answer anything at all.

 

 

 

Translation: "I don't know how to define need and greed, so I'm just going to pretend that I have answer for it, and that I just don't need to define it"

 

I think what she's saying more accurately, Eternalnight, is that a player can't define for another player what does or doesn't constitute "Need". So when someone hits Need, we have to accept it at face value that they perceive they need it to meet some goal or other of theirs. We can ask them why they hit "Need", but we have to accept their explanation. It isn't our place, whether we receive an explanation or not, to tell them "That isn't a valid reason to hit 'Need'."

[ThiborF]

It's not.

 

You have not given any way to tell what actually validates a need.

 

I listed some possible reasons why someone may want to have something. Just because you want something does not automatically mean you actually need it.

 

And you can take your semantics game farther then. This is a game we pay to play. None of us are playing this to put a roof over our (or our families') heads. None of us are playing this to put food on our tables or money in our bank accounts. Therefore none of things in game are actually "needed".

 

At the end of the day, clicking Pass, Greed or Need is simply saying:

I don't want this

I want this

I really want this

 

Coincidentally, that's all the game mechanics and any written rules by BioWare will indicate. You were in the group, the mob was killed, there is loot you are eligible to roll on however you see fit. Period.

 

Any system desired on top of that is in the domain of the players. If you wish there to be a more limiting, stringent, "fair", "biased" (or any other adjective) set of loot rules then it is on everyone in the group to come to that agreement beforehand.

If you choose to assume that others are going to play by any rules beyond what's established by the game itself, then you get what you ask for like with everything else you assume.

 

And if you want to call somebody a jerk because they didn't read your mind and grasp your unstated loot rules prior to the run then you should look up the definition of hypocrite and then look in the mirror. Pot meet kettle.

[Shadowkai]

I think what she's saying more accurately, Eternalnight, is that a player can't define for another player what does or doesn't constitute "Need". So when someone hits Need, we have to accept it at face value that they perceive they need it to meet some goal or other of theirs. We can ask them why they hit "Need", but we have to accept their explanation. It isn't our place, whether we receive an explanation or not, to tell them "That isn't a valid reason to hit 'Need'."

 

And what Eldren and crew seem to be saying is, when that epic, Trooper only, BOP chestpiece drops at the final boss an hour and a half into a tough FP, the Jedi Knight should feel free to roll Need on it because they decided at that moment that they need a few thousand credits from vendoring it (because who are we to dictate to them with our archaic social constructs what their "Need" is, because all "Need" is totally subjective).

 

Better luck next time Mr. Trooper! And definitely have no reservations about grouping with that JK again!

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Or just attack my reading comprehension. Or "school" me on something...

[fatboylgn]

double post Edited January 31, 2012 by fatboylgn

[fatboylgn]

Actually you are wrong. If you have read the threads on this, probably not since they are epic, they have stated over and over they don't roll on Class Specific items in the instance you described.

[Shadowkai]

Actually you are wrong. If you have read the threads on this, probably not since they are epic, they have stated over and over they don't roll on Class Specific items in the instance you described.

 

Under their rules of subjective need, rolling on class specific items for credits would be completely acceptable.

[Eldren]

And what Eldren and crew seem to be saying is, when that epic, Trooper only, BOP chestpiece drops at the final boss an hour and a half into a tough FP, the Jedi Knight should feel free to roll Need on it because they decided at that moment that they need a few thousand credits from vendoring it (because who are we to dictate to them with our archaic social constructs what their "Need" is, because all "Need" is totally subjective).

 

Better luck next time Mr. Trooper! And definitely have no reservations about grouping with that JK again!

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Or just attack my reading comprehension. Or "school" me on something...

 

I don't have to school on you on anything. You're doing a wonderful job of poking holes in your own attempts to refute me or those who agree with me. But just so we can be clear, we can reference the post I made near the very top of the last page:

 

If I need it for a stat upgrade for myself or a companion, I roll Need.

If I need it for a cosmetic upgrade for myself or a companion, I roll Need.

If I intend to sell it to a vendor or on the GTN, I roll Greed.

 

We're in agreement (even though you were attempting to be sarcastic) that someone determines their own need, and in this game, need is subjective, which is why we have an impartial system to determine disbursement after it receives a player's desired priority of roll.

 

But by all means, keep digging your hole deeper.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Eldren

[Creed_Buhallin]

And what Eldren and crew seem to be saying is, when that epic, Trooper only, BOP chestpiece drops at the final boss an hour and a half into a tough FP, the Jedi Knight should feel free to roll Need on it because they decided at that moment that they need a few thousand credits from vendoring it (because who are we to dictate to them with our archaic social constructs what their "Need" is, because all "Need" is totally subjective).

If this were to happen, I'd probably try and work out a better way to handle it. The credits you get from vendoring such an item are so low as to not provide any actual benefit. If someone needed the money that badly, I'd probably offer to buy them out of the roll.

 

But that also fits the classic definition of Need/Greed - if you're going to use it, Need. If you're going to sell it, Greed.

 

The problem we have here is that even within that framework, you want to decide what I can use - what benefit qualifies in your mind to allow me to roll need. I may roll for an item I'm going to use, or strip the mods to upgrade four different items, or I want to put my current mods in so I can have the appearance, or put it on my companion - I'm going to use it for all these things.

 

Eternalknight actually hits on the core issue - there are lots and lots and LOTS of possible uses for items in this game, way beyond "This is for my class so I'm going to wear it." People's idea of "need" hasn't caught up yet. Even in acknowledging it, Eternal wants to create a bright line - THESE situations are acceptable "needs" but THOSE situations are not.

 

The core of what most of us are saying is that it's simply too complicated to determine that, and even if you did, you'll never get anyone to agree on it, and EVEN IF YOU DID, you'd never make sure every player knew. So, trust people. You decide what you need, I decide what I need.

 

Does it mean some people might take a broader view of "need" than me, and get more items because of it? Yeah, and that seems to bother some people A LOT. But I can live with it, and barring extremes (such as vendoring items, which might as well be throwing them in the trash) it really doesn't bother me.

[Setanian]

Under their rules of subjective need, rolling on class specific items for credits would be completely acceptable.

 

There's a huge difference between acceptable and entitled to...

 

I am entitled to roll, it would personally deem it unacceptable or at least bad form to need on a class specified item unless it was my class of course

[fatboylgn]

Under their rules of subjective need, rolling on class specific items for credits would be completely acceptable.

 

And that is correct. The BH deemed his need of credits equal to or greater than the JK, no justification required. Personally, I feel that is wrong and a BH is a d-bag for doing it but who I am to tell him that it's unjustified since he is entitled to roll.

 

And yes, it would suck to be that JK. But if it was made clear from the beginning that the BH would be rolling on Need on items for credits (no matter the quality), would he make it to the boss who dropped the purple JK chest? Probably not, since loot rules should be discussed before the group steps into the FP.

Edited January 31, 2012 by fatboylgn

[stem]

Sooo.... You do realize that it's not mandatory to display the legacy name, right?

 

You may need to work on your intimidation a bit...

 

I'm not trying to intimidate anyone. I’m sorry you feel that I was doing any such thing.

 

As I said, I have more than enough people to group with in an MMO to be bothered with the random PuG players who’d chose to play outside my guilds loot ethics.

 

I was under the impression that the legacy system was in place to ignore a players entire account?

 

If not, I'd like to see that implemented.

 

If I set someone on ignore for one of their characters, it stands to reason I don’t want them signing in their other characters to continue a ‘conversation’ I already chose to ignore.

[AKfourtyseven]

And this is why people shouldnt be allowed to roll need on items that their clas cannot use (and since this game has code that allows it to know what items you can and cant use, this is entirely possible).

 

People will always be idiots with what they define as "need". If you cannot use it yourself, on your actual character, then "need" should not even be an option- only greed or pass.

 

Done

Edited January 31, 2012 by AKfourtyseven

[Setanian]

And this is why people should be allowed to roll need on items that their clas cannot use (and since this game has code that allows it to know what items you can and cant use, this is entirely possible).

 

People will always be idiots with what they define as "need". If you cannot use it yourself, on your actual character, then "need" should not even be an option- only greed or pass.

 

Done

 

You forgot my companions..

[Eldren]

I'm not trying to intimidate anyone. I’m sorry you feel that I was doing any such thing.

 

As I said, I have more than enough people to group with in an MMO to be bothered with the random PuG players who’d chose to play outside my guilds loot ethics.

 

I was under the impression that the legacy system was in place to ignore a players entire account?

 

If not, I'd like to see that implemented.

 

If I set someone on ignore for one of their characters, it stands to reason I don’t want them signing in their other characters to continue a ‘conversation’ I already chose to ignore.

 

I'm certain that the Legacy System could be used to ignore someone's entire account, but it isn't a functionality BioWare has put in, and I don't think that was their intent. It's primarily a RP tool near as I can tell: you get a last name, and you can have others of that last name on your account so you can have a "family", or part of a legacy. It likely hearkens back to the term LucasArts used with "The Skywalker Legacy". Something George said in some obscure interview.

[Shadowkai]

I don't have to school on you on anything. You're doing a wonderful job of poking holes in your own attempts to refute me or those who agree with me. But just so we can be clear, we can reference the post I made near the very top of the last page:

 

 

 

We're in agreement (even though you were attempting to be sarcastic) that someone determines their own need, and in this game, need is subjective, which is why we have an impartial system to determine disbursement after it receives a player's desired priority of roll.

 

But by all means, keep digging your hole deeper.

 

So you state that I'm poking holes in my own attempts, and then confirm exactly what I said. Thanks.

[Eldren]

So you state that I'm poking holes in my own attempts, and then confirm exactly what I said. Thanks.

 

Wow... I mean, just... wow. You see, unlike you, I don't quote just a part of someone's post out of context unless there's only one part of their post I'm responding to, and even then, I keep the context.

 

You made a statement that I believed it was fine to roll Need on anything at any time, and I laid out the actual situations in which I rolled Need, which certainly wasn't "on anything at any time". I really think you need to work on either your short-term memory (which shouldn't be necessary since the posts are there for you to refer to) or your reading comprehension, because you're completely stepping all over yourself in an ongoing attempt to discredit me.

 

An ongoing attempt that's miserably failing, likewise.