The Needing on Loot Compilation - Solutions Please!

face_hindu · January 30, 2012

Hi folks,

The debate about whether or not one "should" Need on Orange gear for looks or mods rages on.

And the debate about whether or not one "should" Need on gear for their companions was played out here.

Both of these threads are massive, and, due to their size, most people don't have the time or inclination to read through them before posting. Everything has been argued already, and I'm sick of seeing the best ideas get buried beneath piles of rabble.

250+ pages, tl;dr

(I will be quoting a lot of different people here. If anyone takes issue with being quoted in this thread, or if I have misrepresented your position, please send me a message and I will remove the post in question. See the spoilers at the bottom for posts I singled out as being popular or most representative of common views)

At one end of the spectrum, you have this:

if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it

/thread

The other end of the spectrum is most succinctly summarized here:

If no 1 else wants it sure go for it but DO NOT roll on gear that other ppl need,thats just wrong and selfish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of the 504 posters who expressed an opinion, one way or the other, 387 are of the mindset of bejay, and 117 posters have Descento's mindset.

So, conservatively speaking, it's 3 to 1 in favour of If no 1 else wants it sure go for it but DO NOT roll on gear that other ppl need. I submit to you that this survey is significant enough to declare consensus. So that's one thing nobody has to argue about anymore. (I can't post the data (i.e. the posters' names) in this thread, as it would exceed the character limit, but I will gladly message you the corroborating data, should you wish to double-check my work).

PjPablo seems like a fairly levelheaded person, and many have said some variation of this:

Some are in favor, some are not. GL sets loot rules. What the rules state you follow. Pretty easy formula.

...because there are, of course, many people who have been in this situation:

I didn't know it was unethical to roll a Need for companions. Someone got pissed off really bad when I was grouping with them and then left the group

Could have just told me straight :|

And guildies like Obiwansghost (and many others, ghostly or corporeal) could really care less:

Why are people so obsessed with this? Flashpoints are repeatable.....REPEATABLE! Besides, I only run FP with my guild and most are running through them for the fourth or fifth time anyway. Who cares...so you missed out on a nice piece of gear in hammer station. Guess what? Wait 2-3 levels and go do the next FP and get something even better. I never had a problem with this because the story line quest rewards are usually much better than anything in FP*.

*Obviously I am not talking about lvl50 FP and operations.

I can safely say that, in the two threads I reference here, 90% of posters can identify with one (or more) of the above sentiments.

SUGGESTIONS

Onwards... here are some of the most common (and uncommon) suggestions that people have made to better the current Loot system:

I'd hope that most people would take the common sense approach to this of:

1) Having enough sense to agree loot rules beforehand with respect to rolling need for companions.

2) Have the courtesy to abide by them.

However, it seems that this is not the majority approach and would still be open to abuse by the more unscrupulous players, so I would propose the following instead (although it would be unlikely to be implemented):

1) Do not allow people to roll "need" unless their character can use a drop.

2) Add an extra tier of rolling: "need for companion", which would fall below "need" but above "greed".

So item rolling would look like the following (in decreasing order of priority):

NEED (only selectable if the character rolling can actually equip/use the item)
NEED FOR COMPANION
GREED
PASS
Much less ninja-ing if this were put in place, in my opinion.

Don't class restrict the use of gear, only restrict the needing of gear.
This way, if nobody with the right class has use of it, the greed roll will put the item in the hands of someone who wants it.

Also, a 30-60 minute ability to trade the BOP item with eligible looters a lot of the issues could be resolved.

Unfortunately, I think the mechanics in the game have to change since there is no way to force common sense and humility onto others.

The problem here is that there is a choice at all.

Need/Greed needs to be removed from player choice. This eliminates issues like the one under discussion, and all the associated drama with said issues.

Have a simple percentile roll (1-100), if any of the "parts" are better than any of your parts add 25 to the roll. If the gear is better than something your companion is wearing, even by 1 point, add 50 to the roll. If the gear is better than what you're wearing, even by one point, add 100 to the roll.

High roll wins the gear.

There is absolutely ZERO need for player interaction on this.

This is the exact same path that WoW has walked down in the past few years, and I can assure you (Bioware) it is not a nice path to travel...

Suggestions -

Make instance loot Class specific, and can only be equiped by the class it was intended for, regardless of any mods, its not perfect, but its better than nothing.

Make a seperate section of loot for Companions, clearly marked as to which campanion it is intended for.

Install a strong sense of community on the servers, and never ever break this with multi realm grouping.

Solution 1

Change the system to ROLL or PASS. Have the game compute the variables that will affect the roll (class of player, available companions of player, value of mods/items, etc).

The game then applies all the variables and awards the item to the highest weighted roll. The more the item "fits" your class or companions, the higher your chance to win.

This way, players who simply don't want an item can pass on it, the others have varying degree to win the item. People might complain about people passing or not passing on an item they feel entitled to, but this is a possiblity.

Solution 2

Game applies the same variables as stated above and items are awarded. No option to bow out of a roll is given. Everyone effectively "rolls" on the item. Additionally, a % of the merchant value of the item is then awarded to those who did not win the item itself.

Solution 3

System stays the same... Everyone simply starts to roll NEED and accepts the outcome whether they like it or not.

There is no magic bullet here unfortunately so in my opinion, a system that is as universally liked (or disliked) should be put in place.

Cheers!
Solutions_Canuck

Loot bag for flashpoints. Problem solved...

I also just run with RL friends, so do not have this problem, but I believe BW should do something about it. Need only available for items with your stat, or just loot bags and get over it.

Add a new loot rules option called "Auto Class".
Ex. if there is only one agent in the group and cunning gear drops, he auto gets it.
If there are 2 or more, it is auto rolled and the winner auto gets it.

Players should have a game controlled option. That way you never have to put your trust in someone else to do the right thing.

There should be a setting that the Group leader can set before the instance. Either everyone can roll, or only the class that can use the item. That way everyones happy, and it stops the BS.

Seriously, everyone has different views on drops, and no one can agree, let it be settled in game with an easy option.

This issue is also quite profound in pugs i have played with, while i have no beef if the class in question is not actually present in the pug it is a problem when a sentinel takes a smuggler based item so they can get the look.

The problem is jedi in particular are completly fed up of wearing the same rehashed hooded robes that obscure their hair choice and just look dull, the whole orange moddable gear is a failed attempt at implementing viable player choice in the way that they look.

Furthermore this system is rendered completly void at 50 so if they addressed this and figured out a different way to let people choose how their character looks then this might avoid the nuances of having someone take your orange gear.

Another solution is to get bosses to drop instance tokens that allow you go to a vendor and buy gear of your choosing without affecting other players.

Please post your suggestions, or your arguments against or +1s for the above suggestions. Please do not argue about anything except for what would be the most sensible changes to make going forward. There are a couple behemoth threads you can argue in if you just feel like arguing.

Cheers!

PS: I am of the opinion that the hierarchy of need is: Character > Companion/Aesthetics > Anything Else

PPS: for your pleasure and edification, here are some of the most commonly expressed arguments, as well as some of my favourite posts from the 2000-plus that I read (in case you're wondering if anybody has argued your viewpoint (trust me, someone probably has)):

The Courtesy Looter All Stars:

Never pug....you could end up with a guy like this....

If we run a FP and a great upgrade drops for you, Sith Marauder, you're in luck with a group running under 'don't roll for items that upgrade another teammate's class more than yours.' You have a 100% chance of improving (assuming no other Marauders in the group).

Under 'Press Need for anything, even for items that don't upgrade your primary stats,' your odds drop to 50% when I roll. In this case, the reason I roll - I like the look, I'm short on cash, I want to give it to my companion's girlfriend - doesn't matter, but it's clear that it does not improve my primary abilities.

In two runs with drops perfectly suited to each of us, we go from a perfect chance to both upgrade to half as likely, and by half again when others roll, too.

That 'greedy' team will end up weaker than the considerate one. Do you really want to cut the chance of improving my heals by 75%?

Under my suggestion, every player has an equal chance at drops in a run. They simply have a greater chance of getting drops for their class.

Is that clear? I'm not asking for a special claim on Marauder or Powertech or Sorceror items with my Agent - you have priority when those items drop.

And you cannot seem to understand that I'm offering NO opinion on the morality of need rolling oranges for appearance. I have not once in this thread stated a moral judgement on the issue one way or another.

I am simply explaining why the argument "because I can" is not the thread-ender it was intended to be, and is in fact a completely meaningless addition to a thread whose essential purpose is to discuss the morality of an act within the social structure of this game.

Not only is it meaningless here, but in fact "because I can" is an invalid argument for almost ALL moral discussions. Almost all actions of moral interest CAN be performed by a human obeying the laws of physics; those that can't don't tend to present much of a moral dilemma at all, given that morality is about human CHOICE, not imaginary circumstances that could never exist.

(As an aside, you also seem to have no understanding of "authority", where it comes from, and who ultimately grants it... I weep for the civic future of whichever country you come from).

If the loot rule is Need before Greed, then you operate by the rules of Need before Greed.

If you're rolling Need on an orange item with the intent of stripping the mods out of it and vendor trashing them, then congratulations, you officially don't understand how NBG has worked for years now, and you've just served to undermine the system.

Which is, of course, your choice, but don't pretend you aren't doing just that. Or that you're some logical crusader who is justified in his actions because he is somehow campaigning to make the loot system fairer for everyone.

Be proud of destroying the system that others are following for everyone's mutual benefit. Wear that badge with...pride?

Or...whatever you want to call it...

You rolled Need on that item, with all of its mods inside it, with the intention of selling those mods instead of using them, when another player in your group would've immediately put them to use. That's a Greed situation not Need one, and you've just hurt your team's effectiveness because of it.

The fact that SWTOR's orange/custom item system may be unique from other MMOs changes nothing.

Cosmetics are never a matter of Need when the cosmetic in question carries functional modifications with stats that better benefit another member of your party, which you intend to throw away in order to replace with your own.

...Of course since NBG is an honor system, you can freely choose to throw honor to the wind and claim Need on everything, thus destroying the entire purpose of the system. This act however, has been a top cause of smacktards getting booted out of top raiding guilds since vanilla WoW.

NBG is NBG. Follow it, or don't follow it. If you don't follow it, then expect to get an earful from the rest of your teammates and the community at large who do follow it.

I worry about the future of MMO players when the majority of posters here seem to be supporting the 'need for companions' idea. If people don't come first in your view and you can rationalise taking something from someone as 'personal use' then I pity you, or actually I pity your RL friends. If you have any.

A companion is a computer generated non-player character that has no feelings or desires. A person, on the other hand, does, and when that person is able to win a piece of gear that would significantly enhance his character then he gets a little excited. Then you come along, a person who can't use it but whose companion can, and takes that item from him claiming that you can use it.

No, you can't use, your soulless unfeeling binary generated npc can use it. You've just hurt someones feelings over greed and the complete lack of consideration for your fellow man. Way to go!

I greed on gear that I don't need. I assume everyone else does the same. If I greed on gear that I need for my companion, and everyone else greeds on it to vendor it, then....?

Think it through.

I have.

So, you greed it. Me? If I don't need it, I roll greed. Why? Because I'll do two things with it. Sell it, or give it to a companion.

We each had equal chance for the piece, and we each had similar ideas for its purpose. Fair enough, that's great.

Now, let's talk about how needing for companions is plain wrong.

Vanguard joins your FlashPoint because he saw... "LF Tank for Cad, and we're good to go". He probably joined for any number of reasons, but all of them (especially when it comes to a PuG) were to enhance his character. You are playing a Commando.

If you'd have told him at the beginning that you were rolling Need on every piece of Aim/Endurance heavy armor solely for Aric Jorgan; because you've already gotten all the pieces? He'd have left the party. You didn't. He spent a good portion of his time, wasted. He joined your party for his own reasons, but he enabled 3 people to enjoy content and get a chance at some loot. And, you screwed him over. Yeah, he MIGHT get that loot he'll roll need on. But, why bother doing it with your group when he could go find another?

Common courtesy goes a long way.

And, for the argument that your companion helps you in 99% of the content, so gearing them is just as important? You can't use your companion in PvP. You can't use your companions when your party is full, like when you are tackling content in a Heroic 4, or FlashPoint... You can't use your companion when gear bonuses are utilized the most.

So, even if you didn't read any of that... Needing for companions can be fine, but if you are the person who is going to do it, tell your party when you start. Watch those party members melt away, unless you do some investigation on who is already geared past the content. Better yet, ask questions when loot is rolled on. You'd be surprised how many people don't mind your companion getting gear, as long as they don't need it.

Needing for a companion is plain stupid, really.

Gears barely matter for them and, anyways, with some PvP or with enough commendations, you can gear them in Moddable gear that will last all the way to 50 so why would anyone bother rolling need for a Companion?

Not only that but where does Needing for a companion stops? Your primary one? Your favorite one? All of them? If I was going to need for all of my companion, I would roll on pretty much ALL loot but the gears with Aim.

I also think that we can all agree that Players should have the Priority on Companions. Agreeing on that, I honestly find no valuable justification to Need something for your Crappy Companion with whom you cannot do Ops, Flashpoints or PvP no matter how decked out he or she is.

And so, at this point, You should really just go with a Greed roll because what you are doing is just that, a Very Selfish, useless and Greedy roll. (Unless you asked beforehand and people agreed to let you roll need. Then it's okay!)

If i need gear for my companion, I will roll need. Period. A companion is apart of you, it is your right hand guy and is of vast importance, especially to those that solo quest like myself. My tank is my life, if he can't tank due to crappy armor, then I fail in my quest. So yes, if I need it, then i will roll for it.

If someone in the party specifically says "Hey! I am in desperate need of..x.." then I will deffer and let said person take it instead. But if you don't speak up, then that's your fault.

That attitude won't fly at level 50 just so you know.

It's not cool at lower levels either, but it's not worth worrying about. Unless your companion was in the group, you are taking gear for a character that didn't help earn it. Selfish.

Your tank's effectiveness doesn't improve all that much with gear. He will never be able to tank anything meaningful.

Wow, the amount of trolls in here is absolutely ridiculous. Players should only be allowed to roll for loot that their CHARACTER can use, not their companion. Their companion can easily be geared with decent gear from leveling and quests. Your companion doesn't need an orange item that some other player in your group will benefit much more from. Quit being selfish and rolling need for companions.

I'm just baffled at how there are seemingly enough self-absorbed and inconsiderate morons that this is even a topic that is debated. Companions don't need **** and anyone who acts like, "omg if my companion isn't in that epic I won't be able to solo" is lying through their teeth. What matters the most is the weapon, which you get great ones from a daily. Armor is decent on a tank companion but they're still going to get stomped on elites and champions without significant healing.

Gear your companions up through hand-me-downs, BoE drops from soloing, and your greed roll victories.

Anyway, I haven't encountered anyone who believed it was right to take loot for companions in game. The forums must just attract the bad apples.

I have no problems with people rolling need for companions.

This game is new, it provides a new set if skills and elements to your character called the companion and gearing them up is just as important as gearing up your main toon. It is a different design then games in the past, so for many the old definition of "need" needs to change.

There is by no means a universal definition of need, so do not expect anyone in your group to believe the same way as you do, set the rules for need before you begin your adventure.

Actually, there sort of is. At least, if you've ever played a MMO before. The rules may be unwritten, but they are there. People who are going to use the gear for good effect > offspec/alt/companion.

That being said, people need to learn to play nice and not throw a fit over what could be an honest mistake by someone who has never picked up an MMO before but did for TOR because of the IP involved.

Consider this, as I am sure it has been mentioned before. If everyone was going to roll need for alts/companions, we'd not need the roll buttons at all, because everyone basically needs everything for various companions/alts.
Bottom line, only roll Need if you're going to use it yourself on the character that is playing. Or at least check with the others if they are ok with it befor rolling.

Why would BioWare implement a Need/Greed system at all?

The objective fact is that it's a 2 tiered system. Need rolls have a higher chance of winning than Greed rolls.

It's therefore vanishingly unlikely that it's not objective fact that BioWare put this in the game because it's a traditional mechanism, that relies on players' honesty, to give people whose characters contributed to winning whatever it is (e.g. an instnace) a higher chance of winning a roll than people who don't need it for their character, but would be likely merely sell the gear.

None of that has anything to do with subjectivity or any sort of morality about which one might argue: it's the system that's in the game, and that's how it's meant to be used.

So the only matter left for debate is whether alts or companions count as characters included in the remit.

It should be obvious that the "Need" instance reward ought to be for THE CHARACTER WHO CONTRIBUTED TO WINNING THE INSTANCE.

So alts are out. Anyone who rolls for their alt is properly called a "nijna looter" and ought to be blacklisted as a selfish, inconsiderate player.

But with regard to Companions, the matter is slightly different. Again, it should be obvious that IF YOUR COMPANION CONTRIBUTED TO WINNING THE INSTANCE, then their gear should be included in your gear, because that Companion's play is part of your play, they are under your control, and you contrtibuted to winning the instance, through that character.

If it was a 4 man team and Companions were not involved, then your Companion is equivalent to an alt - i.e. IF YOUC COMPANION DID NOT CONTRIBUTE TOWARDS WINNING THE INSTANCE, then they are equivalent to an alt, and therefore if you roll Need for your not-present Companion, you are a ninja looter and ought to be blacklisted as a selfish, inconsiderate player.

There, simples.

...you have the capacity and ability to roll how you want, you have the power to roll how you want, but you don't have the right.

Why? Because nobody else is giving you that right - nobody here, anyway.

"Rights" are not something an individual can decide for themselves that they have. They emerge as norms of human interaction FROM human interaction itself.

(Or to put it another way, to head off a certain type of jejune moral relativism, there is this process of human interaction, from which certain norms of conduct arise, and those norms of conduct have traditionally been called "rights". Again, you have the power to call "rights" something else, but you won't find much agreement with moral or legal tradition or ordinary language.)

Your "right" presupposes a concomitant duty on the part of others to let you do something without hindrance (i.e. if you have a right, others will feel an obligation of some kind). But breaking a micro social contract (in this case, what most people understand of the Need/Greed system) is not something you're going to be able to do with impunity, because most people will very much not feel obliged to let you get away with it.

You can propose that you have a right to roll how you want, but as this thread shows, you will find that a large proportion of people disagree with you, and will blacklist you. Eventually you will end up with nobody to play with.

So eventually you won't even have the capactity or ability to roll how you want, because you'll have nobody to roll with

"If it doesn't come on the run, it doesn't get to roll."

I agree. VERY replaceable.

***other ways of gearing companions without stealing from the players that helped get the item for you.***
1) GTN, just buy whatever you want. And help the economy work.. other players benefit

2) Craft them stuff. you worry about your companions having the best gear? take a crafting skill that will always keep them up to date.

3) take the items designed specifically for them at the end of certain quests. thats what its there for.

4) overlevel then try to do heroics solo with companion. Take all you want...

5) PVP to get gear for them

6) use eqiupment commedations to buy them new gear.

look i can go on and on. Gear your comps all you want. just dont need on gear dropped in a 4 man flashpoint where a player could use it.

Its been said before but Companions do not help in PVP, warzones, flaspoints, operations and so on. Therefore they should not take priority.

Treat others in the community as you would like to be treated and all will be well. Players will appreciate this. Companions affection meter will not change...

I'm not sure why the people who support need for companions ignore two basic facts, but I'd like an answer:

First , the above is important. You can gear your companion many ways without rolling on something that you can't actually use. If the only places to get decent gear was in FP/OP, then there would be some validity to this. But it isn't -- and unlike all of the above examples, we have a situation where in some cases there's good gear that can be obtained for companions, but NOT for actual characters -- some of the stuff that is very useful for a PC only drops on FP.

Second, I'm running the numbers myself, but it doesn't look like slapping a pile of purps or blues instead of equal leveled greens does much of anything for the majority of companions. I'm working the first and second companions now, and while I'm not done the outlines are:

Ranged Tanks get almost no utility or boost
Melee Tanks live about 5 to 10 seconds longer
DPS get more damage
Healers get only a very minor boost

The next tests I'm doing is how much highly coveted pieces of gear improve a PC vs an NPC -- the test will be Trooper vs. Aric , since they're both nearly identical (a commando is what I will use for the AC since both use assault cannons).

Why not just use other methods to gear your companion?

When i run Black Talon the gear that drops tell you what it is in the name of it.

Black Talon Hunter's Boots
Black Talon Inquisitor's Robe

Etc, etc, etc

So, I do agree if someone is clearly rolling on stuff that isn't their class and wouldn't match their companion they should be called on it. So, if you see me rolling on a Black Talon Juggernaut's item as a Sith Inquisitor rest assure it is for Khem.

Source:

http://www.torhead.com/search/Black%20talon

Was the companion in the group when the item dropped? Did his or her AI directly contribute to the acquisition of this new item?

No? Then don't push need on it.

Yes? ...You should still probably check with other human players, first.

That would be the same as me running a flashpoint with 3 strangers. Say I'm on my Vanguard, and a End/Will BoE robe drops. I have a friend that plays a Shadow, and we actually have a static (neither of us do quests without each other). I push "need" on the robe because, hell, 90% of the time I'm doing stuff with my buddy. So what if he's not here, that item still benefits me because when he does better, we do better.

Wow. I'm shocked so many of you think it's cool to roll 'need' for your companion over a player, it should be a no brainer for anyone who's played an MMO before. No wonder this game/forum is in such a ****** state. Never again will I play an MMO based on such a popular IP, brings out all the ******es, like the people who think it's cool to roll need for a pet.

God, I loathe this community.

I've espoused my views on this issue a number of times already, but I just wanted to express a few more concerns I have regarding rolling Need for your companions.

Actually, that's not entirely correct. This issue really isn't about rolling for your companions, but rather rolling for an item that you believe you need, regardless of reason. After all, if you can roll for your companion, why can't I roll to disassemble the item, or vendor it for credits? Without establishing an hierarchy of need, every one in the group now has an equal right to roll Need on the item regardless of whether they actually need the item.

I want to make it absolutely clear that I am not accusing anyone of being greedy for wanting to perpetuate that mentality. That debate is pointless as no one so firmly entrenched in their position will ever admit (at least openly) to being greedy. What I do want to do is outline the consequences of using that set of loot rules over the more traditional one established in past MMOs.

When you open up loot rules to the point where anyone can roll on anything, chances are that the item will go toward some alternate purpose rather than upgrading the character that needs it most in the environment in which it was obtained---in this case, Flashpoints. What happens then is that the principal characters involved in a Flashpoint will receive no tangible upgrades, even though they may have a better solo experience due to an upgraded companion, or have a fatter wallet because of the mats or credits.

So if you're someone like me who just wants to upgrade my main character (and, in many cases, to help others gear up their mains), what is the point of running a Flashpoint? Chances are, someone will out-roll me for an item that only I can equip and is an upgrade for me, since no matter what the item is, I only have a 25% chance of winning. Without the incentive of getting geared up, I stop bothering with Flashpoints altogether, and those who think like me will also do the same, resulting in fewer people participating in FPs.

Also, let's use a gambling analogy. You can view the game's RNG as the house and your group members as fellow players. Using an hierarchy of need, the players are in fact rolling against the house (since it's up to the game to determine which type of item drops). Using the "roll Need if you need" system, the players all roll against each other. It's a matter of perception; I don't want to roll against other players. I want to beat the house.

So, take that as you will. Greed does not enter the equation. I just think one system makes more sense than the other.

^^I like this^^

let me build on this theory some more, if you don't mind, but seems like everyone is busy trying to voice their own version of opinion instead of building on something.

1. Need vs. greed is a courtesy.
the whole system is base on the idea that someone will have more benefit from an item than others. So let's say that every single drop in the game can either enhance your stat or turn into credits. But since some item are BoP, credit will not buy you back the item to enhance your stat. And credit has more than one way to obtained. So in MY OPINION, item(stat) > credit.

2.Stat on main vs. companion
while many of you argue that companion is important because you cannot solo a lot of content without companion. I agree, you do need your companion to go thru the content. However, I do not agree on two things. Companion will never be as strong as a same level PC due to the fact that they are just bots. Unless you firmly believe that your same level companion is more effective than an actual player(provided they are at least average skilled), then I am speechless and no pt to make this debate any longer. And so, IMO, increasing stat on a PC is more important than on a companion

3. Benefit in the sense of all PC and companions in a group.
so if you considering MY OPINION of PC stat is more important than companion STAT, then as someone suggest, there should be an option for rolling need for companion, however, the game doesn't have it. So while some people scale up to the "Need", some people scale down to "Greed".

4. JUST PURE MY OPINION
your companion doesn't need that legendary epic heavy armor to help you to go thru your class quest.....blue item is more than enough. or if you have orange, enhancement is like 4-5K on GTN. so don't play barbie with them, you really, will be fine. Besides, think of it as this, "instead of making my solo experience more smooth, you are helping another player solo experience even smoother."

The Looting Frenzy All Stars:

Suggestions -

Make instance loot Class specific, and can only be equiped by the class it was intended for, regardless of any mods, its not perfect, but its better than nothing.

Make a seperate section of loot for Companions, clearly marked as to which campanion it is intended for.

Install a strong sense of community on the servers, and never ever break this with multi realm grouping.

I am very, very sorry, for this TLDR post/rant.

Regards,
No. I say again No. Doing this would end up in every player and companion all looking exactly the same at the end of the game as they all stopped with the best items. This is exactly what our current orange moddable loot was designed to prevent. I want diversity. Its a new system and trying to force to fit standards from WoW is nkt the correct option. The players may take a bit of tkme to adjust to the new reality of this game but it wil happen in time.
Keep the freedom of choice dont doom us to lack of choice with narrow class set gearing options.

Since you want to dictate my decision on Need and Greed, can you come to my house and push my attack buttons too? I thought maybe since I pushed buttons to help down the boss I could make my own decisions on what will help my character, which might include a companion who helps me get things done in the 99% of the content that doesn't require 3 other players.

You are the selfish player, the one who is all jealous because someone else wanted something YOU thought YOU deserved. Please do put me on ignore.

There are so many items in the game, why do you absolutely need that one item?

Companions are an integral part of a character. Need obviously.

How you roll affects what I achieve from the instance. Am I running it for the XP? Am I running it for the quest complete? Or, more likely? Am I running it for the gear? If the answer is the last one? It definitely is my business how you roll, because it definitely affects whether or not I enable you to get chances at your loot.
No it doesn't, how YOU roll affects it. If you roll well, you win gear, if you roll poorly, you lose out to gear.

I certainly hope I never run into someone like you in game. You guys are death for groups.

You will run into guys like me. We might be annoying for you to PuG with but we're the key to end-game progression. Your guild will contain healers you think are jerks at some point. The trinity exists and you can't get through an end-game without a healer.

Suck it up or go without.

But as I stated, this game has gear customization. The devs have already announced that mods will once again be removable from end-game gear so that players can continue to utilize orange items. People will be rolling on gear, or spending DKP on gear, JUST for the mods.

It's going to happen. And it'll tick you off. But that's how loot drama always starts. No one really cares except the person who felt they "wuz robbed."

So here's what I'm seeing you do. For valid points brought up by other players, you immediately brand it as "faceless based opinion" when in reality it's anything but that. He made a perfectly good point, which is that your character is running the instance, not your pet, therefore the character is the one contributing and should get the item. In addition, you provide absolutely no reason for why it is "faceless based opinion." You are being totally unreasonable, and are providing no reason for why your opinion should be right. The people who say roll need only for yourself, however, have provided perfectly acceptable and logical reasons for why one should do so. So please, **** troll.

Am I entitled to roll on loot? Yes
Am I entitled to roll how I please? Yes
Am I entitled to what I please with the loot I win: Yes
Is it any of you business what I roll on: No
Is it any of your business how I roll? No
Is it any of your business what I do with the loot I win? No

Now please explain to me which part I got wrong.

You calling me <expletive> troll is just immature. Try rising above the riffraff.

I think it's a bit selfish to think that your companion can make better use of that Columi chestpiece than that lvl 50 agent can.

It benefits me more to have my Quinn get that Chest token that the random sniper in the group. It enables me to do all the things faster. As such, i NEED it, I can wear it now, it is even for main spec.

I have no problems with people rolling need for companions.

This game is new, it provides a new set if skills and elements to your character called the companion and gearing them up is just as important as gearing up your main toon. It is a different design then games in the past, so for many the old definition of "need" needs to change.

There is by no means a universal definition of need, so do not expect anyone in your group to believe the same way as you do, set the rules for need before you begin your adventure.

On the Flipside If you roll for gear for yourself when someone needs it for their comp.
You are just as greedy and selfish and ruining someone else's experience.

If I particiapte in a group that kills a monster, I'll roll whatever I want on anything that drops and no one can stop me.

No, I won't get black listed except by a few people and they will forget it in a very short time.

Read the first few pages, then skipped to the last and thankfully found this:

My own common sense has lead me to believe:

My created character is my character.
My obtained companion characters are my characters.
My obtained ship character is my character.
My characters that I am not playing, at that moment, are my alternate character(s).

So, with that in mind:

I will roll need on anything my logged in character(s) need.
I will roll greed on things my characters(s) do not need.
I will roll greed on things my alternate characters need.

Now, if differentiating parameters were established prior to any looting, that would be an entirely different story. To boot people because of non-established and biased "rules" is the true injustice.

It's good to see people with actual common sense.

As a healing specced player, I'd like my tank companion in top shape. Some elites really hit like trucks so anything to make him tougher is most welcome. Needing for him is viable, but it depends on the situation and established rules of course. No rules = fair game. You need if you have immediate use for it, and equipping it to a companion right after the instance is about as immediate as winning a crafting material and using it would be.

The people that don't "need" companions with decent gear are probably the facerolling DPS people. The ones each MMO has too many of and are most disposable. Oddly they feel they have most right to gear, perhaps because of the bigger competition. They try everything to limit other players to roll on gear because DPS players are generally selfish, which shows in their class choice. They offer no support.

Companions matter to healers and tanks (and should matter to others as well), and a (significant) upgrade for a companion is a viable reason to roll need. I'd rather have someone roll need for a companion, than having that person roll greed and someone else rolling greed as well wins just to vendor it.

As a healing specced player i actually are disgusted what you are saying.

You call that common sense i would call that spoiled
yes we do need a good tank companion for soloing as a healer

BUT

For the love of all that is sacred you dont take group content gear over a real player for something you use only in soloing.
I would suggest you would reconsider youre stance on this
Seems awful close to paladins/druids and why Blizz had to use the -10% on wearing something else then Leather/plate.

And shockingly that is because of people like you and the one you qouted

Don't be such a moron. I said it's viable and understandable, I wouldn't rage if someone needs for their companion. I said it's dependant on the situation. If the person I roll against is an awful player then the item would be more suited for my companion so I roll need. If the person is a moron, I roll need. If someone definitely needs it for his own character, I roll greed or pass. If that makes me awful, I couldn't care less.

And don't bring WoW crap here. I never played it because the people there are... generally the ones one shouldn't be playing with.

I have something called adaptability. I do not stubbornly stick to some mindset and force it on other players, or stick with a mindset from another MMO with different mechanics. Playing without scripts and macros left me with individual thought, which seems like a rarity.

I'm a Bounty Hunter, I will Need on everything.

Except the problem is that many of those who take issue with the equal roll idea(not idea actually, system in place) feel that someone who plays the game and prioritizes looks over stats, is pretty much wrong and should pass to those who are rolling for stats.

So passing because you want it for looks or a companion or the mods so someone else gets a better chance is the only way to make it respectful or courteous? Really? So that means the person who is going for stats has a sense of entitlement since he feels he should have a better chance at it rather than taking his chances with the dice, just like the person who would want it for looks does. Being courteous varies based on the person. For example, I feel it's DIS Courteous to just say "hi" or "how's it going" to a random stranger you walk past. Does that mean i'm right or wrong, no. That's just my opinion.

The system is the way it is, if there is no discussion because you have "moral" or "social" rules you follow, you cannot expect anyone to follow them too. Since the system is NOT the way you want it, if you don't speak up and make your position known, there is no right to complain.

And everyone is selfish in some way, out society would be far far different if that was not the case.

lol. considering I am a healer and the only reason anyone gets a single piece of loot at all is because i keep everyone alive. funny statement bra.

i enjoy exposing the immaturity in people, it shows how weak and pathetic they are.

Originally Posted by Eldren
... An item is not actually owned until it's in someone's inventory, and it only goes into their inventory once they win a roll on it. The party collectively downed a boss. At that point, they're each individually rolling on the item for their own personal purposes. They each individually want the item. Unless they're in a guild together (in which case loot contentions like this frequently don't arise to begin with), the upgrade only benefits that group until they disband, at which point it's a benefit solely to its owner. As a result, it's largely pointless to use group benefit as a hammer by which to discourage fulfilling one's own interests at the expense of consideration for the collective.

Your earlier analyses of utilitarian benefit applied across a group is inexact due to the dispersed nature of said groups, even once people start collapsing on one another again in endgame. True benefit applies only to the individual in this case, and motives aren't in question: people are there to upgrade their characters, and they participate in collective effort to have an opportunity at a higher quality of personal upgrades. They don't roll to disburse amongst the group, they roll to acquire a personal upgrade. ...

swtor.wikia.com user Mozzillest: Is there any way people can mod their companion characters? From changing armor and weapons to having different names - so it doesn't look like every Sith Warrior class has the same Twi'lek following them around.

Daniel Erickson (Lead Writer): They are very customizable in terms of the look and feel. Each class has its own companion characters, they can be entirely looted, entirely kitted out, like in other BioWare games, which makes the whole loot routine a very interesting one, since someone can try to get some loot for their companion character that they don’t even have with them right now.

source: http://swtor.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Ausir/BioWare%27s_Daniel_Erickson_answers_your_questions

PPPS: Please forgive me if I didn't quote you - there are a LOT of great posts that I didn't have the space to add. And please forgive me if I did quote you, and you're not cool with that. Send me a message and I will remove it.

Calsetes · January 30, 2012

I'd say you hit the four "sides" spot-on.

1. The "I roll for everything" guys.

2. The "I roll for only what I myself will use" guys.

3. The "I roll for only what me or my companions will utilize" guys.

4. The "I don't care" guys.

I think there might be a fifth side, the "organize before you set out" people, but they tend to gravitate more towards the middle of the "box" as people from every viewpoint say it.

IPaq · January 30, 2012

Loot complaining is dragging the MMO community down the drain...

There is an easy solution, do not group with people you do not know.

PS: Beside that the lvling gear is temporary Beside moddable that is.

Edited January 30, 2012 by IPaq

face_hindu · January 30, 2012

I'd say you hit the four "sides" spot-on.

1. The "I roll for everything" guys.

2. The "I roll for only what I myself will use" guys.

3. The "I roll for only what me or my companions will utilize" guys.

4. The "I don't care" guys.

I think there might be a fifth side, the "organize before you set out" people, but they tend to gravitate more towards the middle of the "box" as people from every viewpoint say it.

I think PjPablo and others comprise the fifth side (the "voice of reason"): set up rules first, or don't complain.

SkateOnTrees · January 30, 2012

Solution

Free for all

the way it should be

Diablo anyone?

pjskull · January 30, 2012

Solution

Free for all

the way it should be

Diablo anyone?

Why would anyone willingly agree to a free for all?

The solution I use:

"Hey guys, before we start, can we agree: Only use Need on items that match your main stat on the toon you are playing right now."

Agree, disagree, it's your business... If you don't, I'll find another group, no harm, no foul. Say ok and then go against what we agreed in the instance and I'm out the second it happens. I've only had to quit an instance once so far. (Thank you awesome Vrook Lamar server...)

In the hidden comments above, there is a brilliant counterpoint to the "I can, so therefore it's allowable" argument. If you have not read underneath the top spoiler button, I encourage you to do so.

Thanks for this thread, OP.

Edited January 30, 2012 by pjskull

dark-jehts · January 30, 2012

I just use "need" when i really ... well need an item (improve most of my stats) ALWAYS pass on non-useful items to me and greed for pet's item .

And blacklist is my ally against thoses who need every item in the game

xsteinbachx · January 30, 2012

Originally Posted by Kalthorine
I'd hope that most people would take the common sense approach to this of:

1) Having enough sense to agree loot rules beforehand with respect to rolling need for companions.

2) Have the courtesy to abide by them.

However, it seems that this is not the majority approach and would still be open to abuse by the more unscrupulous players, so I would propose the following instead (although it would be unlikely to be implemented):

1) Do not allow people to roll "need" unless their character can use a drop.

2) Add an extra tier of rolling: "need for companion", which would fall below "need" but above "greed".

So item rolling would look like the following (in decreasing order of priority):

NEED (only selectable if the character rolling can actually equip/use the item)
NEED FOR COMPANION
GREED
PASS

Much less ninja-ing if this were put in place, in my opinion.

I think this is the only option.

face_hindu · January 30, 2012

I think this is the only option.

I like that one best as well.

Verysafety · January 30, 2012

You forgot "darkside roll", that's how I roll.

xsteinbachx · January 30, 2012

Originally Posted by Kalthorine
I'd hope that most people would take the common sense approach to this of:

1) Having enough sense to agree loot rules beforehand with respect to rolling need for companions.

2) Have the courtesy to abide by them.

However, it seems that this is not the majority approach and would still be open to abuse by the more unscrupulous players, so I would propose the following instead (although it would be unlikely to be implemented):

1) Do not allow people to roll "need" unless their character can use a drop.

2) Add an extra tier of rolling: "need for companion", which would fall below "need" but above "greed".

So item rolling would look like the following (in decreasing order of priority):

NEED (only selectable if the character rolling can actually equip/use the item)
NEED FOR COMPANION
GREED
PASS

Much less ninja-ing if this were put in place, in my opinion.

I think this is the only option.

spudbynight · January 30, 2012

And guildies like Obiwansghost (and many others, ghostly or corporeal) could really care less:

Couldn't care less.

This video explains why.

Meluna · January 30, 2012

Hello, everyone!

After some careful consideration, we have decided to close this thread. There are two existing threads for discussing this issue, as linked in the original post of this thread. If our users would like to share their thoughts on this, we encourage them to please visit them. They are linked below for your convenience!

Please, Don't Roll on Items for Another Class in Your Team

Do not roll "Need" for companion gear.

While we always welcome constructive opinions and discussions, we do ask that everyone please tries to post in already existing threads. This helps keep the forums as neat and organized as possible. This, in turn, helps our team compile and read feedback more efficiently. Thank you for your understanding!

The Needing on Loot Compilation - Solutions Please!

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