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Melee needs some distinct advantages when in melee range.


Tiresias

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Anybody who PvPs to any degree is familiar with the utility disparity that exists between melee advanced classes and the ranged advanced classes. I won't waste time rehashing the specific issues here, since it would be beating a dead horse.

 

The "advantages" of which I speak need to be non-damage advantages. If you simply create a damage disparity between melee and ranged classes you affect PvE as well, since top-end raids are really only concerned with performance unless you FORCE specific classes on them (such as making a specific encounter require a specific ability that only one AC has) -- and this is bad design.

 

Here are some examples:

 

-Better interrupts. There is no reason that a caster should be able to get off 3-second channels or 1.5 -second casts with a dedicated melee AC in their face. Interrupts are the primary advantage of melee when facing ranged classes, and without them there is NO REASON AT ALL for a ranged class to try to kite a melee classes unless there is a dramatic health or damage differential. Weak interrupts also make healers extremely potent in small-scale encounters (2v2, 3v3).

 

 

-Better anti-CC. There are a few ways to go about this. The most obvious is to simply provide abilities that make it difficult to use certain forms of CC against them, but that's a little boring. Instead, abilities like the Jedi Guardian's "Defiance" talent makes more sense in that if you use CC against someone with this talent you then want to GET AWAY from them since when the CC ends they will have additional resources to punish you with.

 

When looking at this aspect of melee classes care should be taken to avoid providing abilities that simply discourage using CC effects for the purpose of kiting. The idea is to ENCOURAGE kiting through the use of CC, snares, and proper positioning against the melee classes.

 

 

-Stronger active defenses, particularly when in melee range. This is another big aspect of convincing a ranged class to kite a melee class. With the exception of high-burst or high-throughput "glass cannon"-style melee classes (which is what the Scrapper Scoundrel and Concealment Operative SHOULD be), brawler and tank-style melee classes should have better defenses both out of the gate and as a fight carries on when facing ranged classes.

 

Some examples of these kinds of active defenses can include damage debuffs that apply on-attack, defensive bolsters that apply on-attack, self-healing on "big finishers", etc. The idea is that as long as the melee class is swinging they are getting stronger.

 

Furthermore, these kinds of active defenses need to stack, such that the longer the melee class stays in melee range against a specific target the harder they get to kill and potentially the more damage they deal. This encourages not only kiting but allows the melee class to force a ranged class to retreat until their debuffs or the melee buffs wear off. This is VERY important when figuring out how a melee DPS class will handle a healer in a logical, systematic manner.

 

 

Alright, I'll stop there since that's already quite the wall of text. What I am advocating here is not making melee classes the be-all and end-all of PvP, and certainly not giving them any more damage. I am simply advocating a solution to the problem of ranged classes really not needing to kite melee classes in this game due to how weak melee-specific advantages are.

 

Thanks for reading. I look forward to constructive feedback.

 

TL;DR: Just read the post. It's not that long.

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As a Marauder I do feel like I deal very low dmg compared to other dps specced classes.

When I can get up and personal I can do a fair bit of dmg and cc etc, however thats not always so easy.

 

Happy with the dmg if I had a little more anti cc, or nice to have a minor buff for when I manage to get inside. Reduced cooldown on Force charge lower down the tree is needed also. 15sec is just too long. If you don't use it to get from person to person your probably nuked down before you get there unless you have camo up or burn shields/speed buffs or something to get you there.

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Melee classes, save for smugg/operative already have some utility, lot's of charges and gap closers.

 

Taking some of the utility away from Sorcs/Sages would probably make a big difference since that's half the team you usually play against in a WZ.

 

Adding more interrupts is NOT a solution. It's bad enough for healers already, trust me.

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I hate to do this to you. But all melee classes need a wake up call. YOU WILL ALWAYS BE GIMPED. Here is a copy/paste from another QQ melee thread I posted to.

 

Ok. First off this isn't the only MMO that gimped melee classes. Pickup groups in Star Wars galaxy only ever picked 1 lightside jedi to tank. No melee need apply for groups doing instances. Plus SWG had 8 years for players to learn to hate jedi and spies. That's why they were shut down in groups. Ranged classes with heavy weapons, rifles, or pistols were OK. They were dps. I'm trying to remember. I think 1 light jedi as tank. 2 medics (healing), 2 officers (tacs and stims, plus action), and the rest dps, which meant commandos, bounty hunters, and smugglers.

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Sent, 6 second interrupt. Watchman also has another interrupt on 15sec cooldown.

 

Guardian, 8? sec interrupt, or 6. Not sure.

 

Assassin, knockback, stun, mez, 10-12 sec interrupt. Talented 2 second stun, 2 second knockdown.

 

Op, knockdown from stealth, 12 sec interrupt, stun. Probably the weakest interrupter, but the most burst.

 

Melee has it's advantages. You just need a larger advantage because A: You're trying to melee in zerg v zerg which hasn't worked in... basically any game ever with the exception of games like Darkfall with friendly fire and free aim. Or, you suck. I'm guessing a mixture of the two.

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I tend to agree even playing a sorc. However I think the warriors/knights already have better inturupts plus they seem to have enough damage output that they don't really need extra utility beyond what they have because if they got anything else any range would peris. Ops have stealth for their utility and so do assassins so it works out from the seems of it
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Absolutely agree, being melee comes with no distinct advantages compared to being ranged. Being a ranged class in this game is just better in every way at this point, and as numbers increase this only becomes more problematic. I hope everyone's experienced the massive 30+v30+ battles where every time a melee tries to close and do something he just dies instantly, while ranged just sit back and shoot.

 

There is a massive melee vs ranged discrepancy in this game and it needs to be addressed.

Edited by Danyl
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Melee interrupts ARE better from what I've seen -- the cycle faster than ranged interrupts.

 

Problem is they are on the global cooldown. That should be fixed. By the time I see you start your ability, and I finish my ability and then I trigger my interrupt, it's probably too late. Interrupting a 1.5 second cast ability is more luck than skill, especially with some alacrity points involved.

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Absolutely agree, being melee comes with no distinct advantages compared to being ranged. Being a ranged class in this game is just better in every way at this point, and as numbers increase this only becomes more problematic. I hope everyone's experience the massive 30+v30+ battles where every time a melee tries to close and do something he just dies instantly, while ranged just sit back and shoot.

 

There is a massive melee vs ranged discrepancy in this game and it needs to be addressed.

 

1v1 i think a melee vs ranged works out perfect in this game

 

what the problem your seeing is that most classes are ranged so it makes group pvp situations more frustrating..

 

i do pvp on an alt Juggernaut and destroy everything i come across 1v1, whether it melee or ranged..

 

however i also lead the wz in deaths since every time i attck someone i have 4 ranged classes picking me off

Edited by wwkingms
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Melee interrupts ARE better from what I've seen -- the cycle faster than ranged interrupts.

 

Problem is they are on the global cooldown. That should be fixed. By the time I see you start your ability, and I finish my ability and then I trigger my interrupt, it's probably too late. Interrupting a 1.5 second cast ability is more luck than skill, especially with some alacrity points involved.

 

pretty sure all interupt abilities in this game are off gcd

 

could be me

Edited by wwkingms
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The humanity!! The QQ.. the badness .. how does this thread exist? I have 2 friends that play jug and Mara and dominate. They average 10-12 medals a match. Just use a little tactics and don't try to tank a team like a raid boss. I mean from my angle they're jumping across the map like ninjas, popping cooldowns when needed (stealth, CC and dmg immunities, etc) and pumping out a ton of dmg. Very bursty too
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If I let a melee specialized character get in melee range of my sorceror, he's going to put me down before I put him down.

 

In what situations? Where you both start the fight at 100% health and you didn't know he was there? Where you use no CC abilities at all but simply spam Force Lighting?

 

The way PvP works at the moment you can pretty much stand in one place and "turret" as a ranged character. The ability to rotate CC abilities combined with excellent damage output and no real active disincentives to kite away from anything but an Operative or Scoundrel (whose disincentive is simply incredible damage output) is a large part of this problem.

 

The "exchange" of melee vs. ranged doesn't happen in this game. By that I mean you don't have the back-and-forth of the melee class doing something to close the gap and the ranged class doing something to escape.

 

As a Sorc facing almost any melee class, your best bet is to just keep shooting lightning at them while rotating CC/physics abilities... or retreat unilaterally because you began the fight at a much lower health level than them.

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Sent, 6 second interrupt. Watchman also has another interrupt on 15sec cooldown.

 

Guardian, 8? sec interrupt, or 6. Not sure.

 

Assassin, knockback, stun, mez, 10-12 sec interrupt. Talented 2 second stun, 2 second knockdown.

 

Op, knockdown from stealth, 12 sec interrupt, stun. Probably the weakest interrupter, but the most burst.

 

Melee has it's advantages. You just need a larger advantage because A: You're trying to melee in zerg v zerg which hasn't worked in... basically any game ever with the exception of games like Darkfall with friendly fire and free aim. Or, you suck. I'm guessing a mixture of the two.

 

4 second int on an 8 second CD. One of the ****test interrupts in SWTOR.

 

Saber throw also interrupts but is useless when actually in melee range.

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pretty sure all interupt abilities in this game are off gcd

 

could be me

 

What're you?

 

Both my Sniper and my Powertech have to wait for the GCD before they can activate their interrupts.

 

So:

I start my ability

I see your blue cast bar pop up

I have to wait for my GCD to finish

I can now try to interrupt you

 

(Or, more likely)

You start your cast

I hit my attack because I didn't notice your blue bar in time

I have to wait (etc)

 

 

Makes it very hard to interrupt fast casts.

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The humanity!! The QQ.. the badness .. how does this thread exist? I have 2 friends that play jug and Mara and dominate. They average 10-12 medals a match. Just use a little tactics and don't try to tank a team like a raid boss. I mean from my angle they're jumping across the map like ninjas, popping cooldowns when needed (stealth, CC and dmg immunities, etc) and pumping out a ton of dmg. Very bursty too

 

Belay the insults.

 

Also: you didn't address a single issue that I raised. You simply stated "two people I know do fine in PvP so this issue doesn't exist."

 

I asked for constructive feedback.

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The humanity!! The QQ.. the badness .. how does this thread exist? I have 2 friends that play jug and Mara and dominate. They average 10-12 medals a match. Just use a little tactics and don't try to tank a team like a raid boss. I mean from my angle they're jumping across the map like ninjas, popping cooldowns when needed (stealth, CC and dmg immunities, etc) and pumping out a ton of dmg. Very bursty too

 

You can't even get that many medals on a Marauder.

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Melee's need to be tankier than ranged /thread.

 

This would also solve mass PvP, there needs to be less incent to attack a melee, people need to go like "ohman I don't want to attack him he takes far more hits than this Sorc".

 

But no it's the other way around, the sorc is BY FAR harder to take down than the jugger that just jumped to me. It just doesn't make sense, Sorcs/Sages are by far more tanky than Juggers/marauders/Wardens/guardians will ever be.

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If they do this I will be even more dominant than I am now. It makes sense, and its the right thing to do, but it has some pretty sever ramifications. It's the same as the fact that shielding and absorb don't work too well in PvP. It makes sense that it should but if they flip the switch to make it so, the tanks will crush everybody.
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If they do this I will be even more dominant than I am now. It makes sense, and its the right thing to do, but it has some pretty sever ramifications. It's the same as the fact that shielding and absorb don't work too well in PvP. It makes sense that it should but if they flip the switch to make it so, the tanks will crush everybody.

 

Who cares about 1on1? Why would a ranged be able to beat me in 1on1 AND be in a MASSIVE MASSSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE advantage in zerg PvP esp on Open PvP? Just doesn't make sense at all.

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Who cares about 1on1? Why would a ranged be able to beat me in 1on1 AND be in a MASSIVE MASSSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE advantage in zerg PvP esp on Open PvP? Just doesn't make sense at all.

 

Who said anything about 1on1? I mean I pretty much am top 1-3 in every warzone now, so yeah lets buff me and stuff.

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