RealAeiouy Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Except if they are Sorc/Sages whom can hybrid for the best of both worlds, I can see where you are going when it comes to Merc/Commando and SC/OP who have terrible dps when specced healing. Basically if you come across a dedicated healing Sorc and a Hybrid madness/healing sorc you are going to need your entire team just to take out two people. Edit: Before you question that, the imps on Jedi Cov regularly run a team with a healing sorc and a madness/healing sorc that can tank a single cap point on alderaan while there team gets there against 3-4 other BM geared players. If that is the problem you balance that. You don't wreck pvp by making it a horrible battle of lockdown / lockout. If there are issues in this system where people can use their abilities make changes that address the problems and still allow people to play. You don't break the system because you think healing sorcs do too much dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Preventing damage is generally the best way pvp works, if you're a really good player you should be able to take very little damage from a bad player. On my sorcerer, I can easily kite most melees for long periods of time, doing this I don't take a whole lot of damage. Even after their resolve is filled I can kite them fairly easily. On my scoundrel I don't do a whole lot of damage while i'm being kited, and even once I land on my target after their resolve is full I've got pretty much no way to stop their damage. It's a double standard, Melees should have a viable way to prevent ranged damage and the best way to do this is through interrupts. So, basically because you play your sorcs against bads, but don't know how to play a scoundrel- melee are weak? Why do you let yourself be kited as a scoundrel anyway, that's not how you should be playing at all. Leave sorcs to sentinels/troopers/gunslingers. Chasing a sorc as the one class that has the most challenge closing the distance is obviously going to get you killed- that isn't really something you should need to give thought to, but it's amazing how many Ops/Scoundrels think that they can kill rocks when they're scissors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 A. People love to hate wow, but they got a lot of stuff right. B. It's not balanced if the game lets ranged use their abilities all the time, but melee are susceptible to kiting. C. I quit during wotlk, so I'm not sure what happened after that, but interrupts worked absolutely fine up to then. Wow did get a lot of stuff right. This is something they got way wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 So, basically because you play your sorcs against bads, but don't know how to play a scoundrel- melee are weak? Why do you let yourself be kited as a scoundrel anyway, that's not how you should be playing at all. Leave sorcs to sentinels/troopers/gunslingers. Chasing a sorc as the one class that has the most challenge closing the distance is obviously going to get you killed- that isn't really something you should need to give thought to, but it's amazing how many Ops/Scoundrels think that they can kill rocks when they're scissors. This rock paper scissors argument is stupid, I think I play my scoundrel just fine and seeing as you've never watched me play I don't think you can pass judgement. Considering about half of my bgs are sorcs, I really don't have the option to just not fight sorcs. If I want to get the huttball I'll need to kill the sorc healing the ball carrier, If I want to cap a door I'll need to kill the sorc standing in front of it. This suggestion that I should just not bother fighting half the players in the warzone is absurd. And the argument was never that melee are weak, it's that melee are significantly harder to play. Seeing from the other thread I made asking which classes are the hardest to play I think the majority of the playerbase agrees with me. The problem here is that Casters just aren't penalized for playing badly, while melee are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 This rock paper scissors argument is stupid, I think I play my scoundrel just fine and seeing as you've never watched me play I don't think you can pass judgement. Considering about half of my bgs are sorcs, I really don't have the option to just not fight sorcs. If I want to get the huttball I'll need to kill the sorc healing the ball carrier, If I want to cap a door I'll need to kill the sorc standing in front of it. This suggestion that I should just not bother fighting half the players in the warzone is absurd. And the argument was never that melee are weak, it's that melee are significantly harder to play. Seeing from the other thread I made asking which classes are the hardest to play I think the majority of the playerbase agrees with me. The problem here is that Casters just aren't penalized for playing badly, while melee are. Yet, you have absolutely zero clue how ridiculously powerful having complete lock outs on a game where you can interrupt every six seconds or so would be? You know, force leap, on 12 second CD, also roots- add a silence to that and it might as well be a 12 cd stun.... on top of having other CC to lock out the rest of the time. Still, do this, and suddenly everyone will be playing a marauder/sentinel- so the class balance would switch significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KilllerRock Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 So your solution is to completely break operative healers? Good one! You ignored the person who said interupts should silence but make the interupts that classes do have on longer CD. Is that not a fair trade? And if Ops healing is weaker than the other 2 they could possibly buff ops healing by making it to where they have a healing skill/talent that interupts only stop the spell interrupted instead of a tree or silence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayshadow Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Nobody would ever be able to cast with a sentinel/mara on them at all. Their interrupt CD is too short. Yes, healers are nigh invincible because they can cast in a sec, with no noticable pushback and no chance to fail. And in that 1 sec they've negated 10 seconds of DPS. And then they get to continue DPSing without skipping a beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requimo Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 What I'm seeing here is that you're playing a SWTOR melee who can't kill anything so you're begging for huge nerfs, and you couldn't kill casters in WoW either... Conclusion: you're a bad. What I'm seeing here is you are a caster and you just want to cast everything without any hassle and don't bother to learn fake casting because it's too hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenthum Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 It's fine as it is right now. Between interrupts, pushback, knockbacks, mezzes and stuns, it's already plenty hard to get timed casts off unless you create some distance first. This. It's hard enough being a non-Sorc/Sage caster as it is. If they add more to interrupts, they'll have to add more to instant casts. If they add more to instant casts, nobody will ever cast. If nobody ever casts, there will be no need for interrupts. See where I'm going with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Yet, you have absolutely zero clue how ridiculously powerful having complete lock outs on a game where you can interrupt every six seconds or so would be? You know, force leap, on 12 second CD, also roots- add a silence to that and it might as well be a 12 cd stun.... on top of having other CC to lock out the rest of the time. Still, do this, and suddenly everyone will be playing a marauder/sentinel- so the class balance would switch significantly. I understand that the idea needs tweaking, This would obviously need to be tested, 4 sec lockout on a 6 sec cd is a bit much but say a 2 sec lockout on a 6-8 second cd isn't. If you fakecast an interrupt nothing happens to you and you're free to cast for however many seconds until the interrupt is over, casters would need to learn how to fakecast or they'd die. It's called being penalized for playing badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodrin Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I don't think this is the correct answer to the problem. Make a couple of the sorc/sage attacks ranged instead of force (force lightening/telekenetic throw are the most obvious ones), and make resolve break the CC that triggers it. As the class that most depends on CC's to survive, making resolve stronger would most affect sorc's and sages. Making a few of their attacks able to be parried/dodged (including the primary one they use to recharge force) would be a significant, but not overly heavy handed nerf, and would make tanks much more survivable against them (ranged attacks can be shielded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 I don't think this is the correct answer to the problem. Make a couple of the sorc/sage attacks ranged instead of force (force lightening/telekenetic throw are the most obvious ones), and make resolve break the CC that triggers it. As the class that most depends on CC's to survive, making resolve stronger would most affect sorc's and sages. Making a few of their attacks able to be parried/dodged (including the primary one they use to recharge force) would be a significant, but not overly heavy handed nerf, and would make tanks much more survivable against them (ranged attacks can be shielded). but this doesn't address the problem, Sorcerers really aren't overpowered. They're just extremely easy to do well on and have a very low skill cap. The difference between an average sorcerer and an amazing sorcerer isn't that big. A flat nerf to sorcerers doesn't fix that problem, we need something that'll make it obvious when a good player is on the other side of the computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I understand that the idea needs tweaking, This would obviously need to be tested, 4 sec lockout on a 6 sec cd is a bit much but say a 2 sec lockout on a 6-8 second cd isn't. If you fakecast an interrupt nothing happens to you and you're free to cast for however many seconds until the interrupt is over, casters would need to learn how to fakecast or they'd die. It's called being penalized for playing badly. Do you understand fake casting is a Cheeseball mechanic exploit that should not be the basis of any pvp ever? Another flamingo got hurt because of you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 What I'm seeing here is you are a caster and you just want to cast everything without any hassle and don't bother to learn fake casting because it's too hard. Another flamingo gets it. People need to stop making up for being bad at pvp by proclaiming to be the queens and kings of fake casting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Do you understand fake casting is a Cheeseball mechanic exploit that should not be the basis of any pvp ever? Another flamingo got hurt because of you You have yet to explain why it's so bad, calling it an exploit doesn't make in an exploit, it took a decent amount of skill to fakecast effectively, which I think is the main reason so many are opposed to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elkantar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 and then you dont see any healer in any warzone or wannabe open pvp zone, cause we all will specc to dd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 and then you dont see any healer in any warzone or wannabe open pvp zone, cause we all will specc to dd. When creating this thread, I didn't really have healers in mind. I'm speaking mostly about sorcs/mercs. If we could keep discussion mainly to those that would be better. Honestly I think it would be simple enough to make healers immune from this, just give them some sort of talent that makes it only lockout the one spell or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gradx Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Successful interupts should be a 1.5 second silence. The only downside to this is that flamethrower/Ravage (Master Strike) are interuptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gradx Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Do you understand fake casting is a Cheeseball mechanic exploit that should not be the basis of any pvp ever? Another flamingo got hurt because of you Fake casting has always been a staple in the pvp community. It's something that actually takes skill, unlike spamming casted abilities in melee range. You're not entitled to a low-risk high reward playstyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toastmuffin Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 tell that to a merc healer with a full resolve using a talented energy shield that prevents interrupt. Free chain casting of heals to keep everyone up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Fake casting has always been a staple in the pvp community. It's something that actually takes skill, unlike spamming casted abilities in melee range. You're not entitled to a low-risk high reward playstyle. He still won't tell me why he thinks fakecasting is somehow an exploit. Fakecasting has worked fine in every other game it's been in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savril Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 He still won't tell me why he thinks fakecasting is somehow an exploit. Fakecasting has worked fine in every other game it's been in No it hasn't your all go on about how fake casting has worked fine in every other game by this you mean WOW and lets look at the state of PVP in that game every class has kicks and silences and by the time you fake cast your either dead to a melee cleave or blanket CC Yes I can spam tracer missile and if it's kicked I'm forced to use power shot, However you have still destroy our main form of damage as unlike like every other class 90% of all our other ability's are reliant on this one attack. The only time a melee suffers is in hutball where casters have the advantage, of course this relies on you being stupid enough by placing you back to a ledge other wise it's fair game. Or how about we remove you ability to stealth right before you die or become nearly immune to all forms of damage then by all means I wouldn't complain about being locked out longer. Turning this game into a carbon copy of WOW is not what people want and if they do then leave and continue the fable that is WOW if it's so perfect. Cause you probably came from playing a DK who thought he had some skills and realised that oh wait no it was just my class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Bump for discussion. Ranged classes have plenty of ways to get out of melee range, and retain most of their damage while in melee range. Most melee do little or no damage outside of melee... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyu Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Give me a responsive PvP system without lag and I will fake cast once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Give me a responsive PvP system without lag and I will fake cast once again. Because everyone knows the system being unresponsive doesn't effect interrupts at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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